A problem with RPGs: RPG developers are not well-read in myth and fantasy/sci-fi literature

[Iucounu]

People who go into gamedev for fame and money are the lowest tier of retard. You'd be better off starting a youtube channel.

In their defense I suspect many are just starry-eyed teenagers when they start, then as time goes on they may lose interest in their hobby (or work, if they got hired) but still like the title.

 

[ropetight]

This time the evil mage will be a woman, I'm sure no one did it before...

make it black too

Disabled trans with vitiligo too.

 

[Reinhardt]

I agree about the "why", though i also think that when working with non-existent / fantasy societies, having them not be as our own societies is far more interesting than having them be "medieval england but with fairies", "vikings but with dragons" or whatever like that. Of course it should also be internally consistent, a mountain tribe that excels at seafaring would feel unbelievable unless there was a reason for that.

I don't mind "medieval england but with fairies" or "vikings but with dragons", but I do mind characters speaking/acting like modern day people, placed into a fantasy theme park, that is based on some infantile imagination of medieval times and vikings. I think that makes many fantasy settings feel so similar and bland.

It’s almost like devs only use fantasy because it’s trendy rather than because they actually like fantasy, know anything about fantasy, have any interest in history, have any concept of immersion, or have critical thoughts in those empty zombie skulls.

Which is why I prefer modern and futuristic settings. It’s less jarring when people talk in todayspeak or whatever historical dialect this is.

most of vidya writers never interracted with real humans outside of their smal circle so it's still complete shit.

 

[Tyranicon]

People who go into gamedev for fame and money are the lowest tier of retard. You'd be better off starting a youtube channel.

In their defense I suspect many are just starry-eyed teenagers when they start, then as time goes on they may lose interest in their hobby (or work, if they got hired) but still like the title.

If so, they're completely deluded. There's far more streamers and youtubers who got famous compared to actual devs.

I can't name a single modern dev that would be recognizable outside of their specific fanbase or genre, except for Notch, and even then if you say the name Markus Persson people are just going to go huh? Maaaaybe Toby Fox and PlayerUnknown.

Kids wanna be rockstars because rockstars get plastered everywhere. Gamedevs hide in their basements.

There's only one good reason to get into gamedev: you wanna do gamedev.

If you enter this industry for anything else, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[Sunri]

This time the evil mage will be a woman, I'm sure no one did it before...

make it black too

he/she can ride on black dragon

 

[mediocrepoet]

Video games suck because everyone is getting too civilized.

 

[Bad Sector]

I don't mind "medieval england but with fairies" or "vikings but with dragons", but I do mind characters speaking/acting like modern day people, placed into a fantasy theme park, that is based on some infantile imagination of medieval times and vikings. I think that makes many fantasy settings feel so similar and bland.

I think it is the repetition that makes it feel bland, not the "fantasy theme park" idea, which by itself i think is fine - but it becomes tiresome and feels lazy when there are many games (and other media) doing the same thing. And because it is repetition that is the cause, it can actually happen with anything that gets repeated (f.e. remember that time back in 2000s when everyone and their dog made WW2 shooters?).

Though that "speaking/acting like modern day people" is a special issue IMO: while sometimes it can work, i think that it can be a problem not only in fantasy settings but basically any setting as it shows a lack attempt for worldbuilding (how people talk is part of that).

(though that always happened - e.g. a lot of 80s and 90s games have some very "80s" and "90s" hairstyles and overall aesthetic inspirations despite supposedly being medieval fantasy or futuristic sci-fi)

 

[negator2vc]

(though that always happened - e.g. a lot of 80s and 90s games have some very "80s" and "90s" hairstyles and overall aesthetic inspirations despite supposedly being medieval fantasy or futuristic sci-fi)

Not to the amount we see today.
Beside these days with many games having photorealistic visuals these type of stylistic choices stand out far more than back in 80s and 90s.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Attempts at fantasyspeak don’t even need a lot of original creative effort behind them. Planescape outright copies cockney slang. You could probably use an online period slang generator.

 

[Bad Sector]

Not to the amount we see today.
Beside these days with many games having photorealistic visuals these type of stylistic choices stand out far more than back in 80s and 90s.

I think the amount was more or less the same, after all artists do tend to copy/get inspired by what they see around them. However as you mention an important difference is the increase in graphics fidelity and photorealism - in the 80s you barely had a few pixels to have a blob pretending to be a human and in the 90s action comics were still a big inspiration (partly due to the need to exaggerate proportions so they are readable in the 320x240 and similarly low resolutions of the time but also because the limited color palettes and lighting worked better with stylized characters). Nowadays the technology and resources to make realistic humans is there so games have realistic humans and artists make humans based on the reality they see around them.

Though i also think that another reason is that fashion simply changes and what we once considered "the default" (from which we notice any deviations) is nowadays seen as old stuff. This means we can notice when modern games use modern fashion (or modern fashion inspired) styles which for younger developers is "the default" and so they don't notice it, pretty much like we didn't notice the fashion trends of the 90s (and for some, the 80s, though at least personally 80s fashion does stand out to me) being part of the media we consumed because that was "the default" for us.

The solution to this (assuming you care to not have the game represent current fashion/style trends) is to try and make something that is intentionally different, but this can be a double edged sword as it can easily end up looking silly and alienating everyone (IIRC this was a common criticism for the new Deus Ex games, especially Human Revolution).

 

[negator2vc]

Nowadays the technology and resources to make realistic humans is there so games have realistic humans and artists make humans based on the reality they see around them.

But that's the main problem, these humans aren't based on the reality around them. They don't even represent current fashion/style trends.
These days the majority of humans are based on what the twitter mob (minority in real life) find appealing and only the minority of humans in games are inspired by normal humans.
The graphics fidelity and photorealism make it even more apparent.

 

[Sarathiour]

Patrick Rothfuss

Will by the way never ever finish his trilogy, and last time I checked ( which was at least a bunch of years ) was busy streaming fallout 4.

If this wasn't embarrassing enough, I also heard that the moderator of his reddit fanpage croaked before he released a single chapter of the next book despite a decade-long break.
If I'm talking about him, it's because he's more or less considered one of the best YA author.
The absolute state of this industry lmao.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Not to the amount we see today.
Beside these days with many games having photorealistic visuals these type of stylistic choices stand out far more than back in 80s and 90s.

I think the amount was more or less the same, after all artists do tend to copy/get inspired by what they see around them. However as you mention an important difference is the increase in graphics fidelity and photorealism - in the 80s you barely had a few pixels to have a blob pretending to be a human and in the 90s action comics were still a big inspiration (partly due to the need to exaggerate proportions so they are readable in the 320x240 and similarly low resolutions of the time but also because the limited color palettes and lighting worked better with stylized characters). Nowadays the technology and resources to make realistic humans is there so games have realistic humans and artists make humans based on the reality they see around them.

Though i also think that another reason is that fashion simply changes and what we once considered "the default" (from which we notice any deviations) is nowadays seen as old stuff. This means we can notice when modern games use modern fashion (or modern fashion inspired) styles which for younger developers is "the default" and so they don't notice it, pretty much like we didn't notice the fashion trends of the 90s (and for some, the 80s, though at least personally 80s fashion does stand out to me) being part of the media we consumed because that was "the default" for us.

The solution to this (assuming you care to not have the game represent current fashion/style trends) is to try and make something that is intentionally different, but this can be a double edged sword as it can easily end up looking silly and alienating everyone (IIRC this was a common criticism for the new Deus Ex games, especially Human Revolution).

Or you could go retro and use one of those archaic aesthetics like Y2K Futurism or Cassette Futurism. For example, the Cyberpunk 2077 game is using 80s fashions. Trying to predict the future is pointless now since we’ve passed a soft singularity. Might as well just use a hodgepodge of aesthetics in order to celebrate the diversity of human thought. Maybe, I don’t know, write a spacepunk game where the culture of the oldest human colonies around Earth are historical lifestylers: steampunks, samuraipunks, dieselpunks, stonepunks, etc all walk the streets without surprise.

 

[luj1]

the Cyberpunk 2077 game is using 80s fashion

Not really

Obviously they didnt go for the late 70s and early 80s-style cyberpunk (actual cyberpunk). They went for a post-modern (2010 onwards) generic cyber "look" (not punk) where everything is slick and everyone's clothes have glowing LED strips on them.

 

[Bad Sector]

Yeah Cyberpunk 2077 does not use 80s fashion, it might perhaps somewhat 80s inspired, but even if you search for Cyberpunk 2020 images you'll see way more 80s stuff like the puffed up hairstyles women have or excessive use of shoulder pads in pretty much everything (which were very common in 80s fashion).

Though Cyberpunk 2077 isn't that representative as the setting is supposed to be all about -exaggerated- style over substance. I wouldn't expect Robocop, which has an 80s cyberpunk setting, to use the same style as Cyberpunk 2077 for example.

But that's the main problem, these humans aren't based on the reality around them. They don't even represent current fashion/style trends.
These days the majority of humans are based on what the twitter mob (minority in real life) find appealing and only the minority of humans in games are inspired by normal humans.

TBH i'm not exactly sure what you have with "normal humans" in mind :-P. Most people are... well, bland, so they don't really stand out.

 

[Axel_am]

How the fuck is everyone talking about fashion in this thread?? I thought you were gonna talk about fucking boooooks.

Here, I will fix everything fashion related for you - everything is war, everybody is dressed for war.

The fucking Witcher is based on a book and you all hate that too. Did the book suggestions really end at page 3??

 

[negator2vc]

TBH i'm not exactly sure what you have with "normal humans" in mind :-P. Most people are... well, bland, so they don't really stand out.

The average person don't look like the twitter weirdos but just because they don't stand out this doesn't mean they don't have variety.

 

[Keyaru23]

anyone posted Appendix N, Gygax's list of 'inspirational reading' for D&D yet? seems relevant

Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE HIGH CRUSADE; THE BROKEN SWORD
Bellairs, John: THE FACE IN THE FROST
Brackett, Leigh
Brown, Frederic
Burroughs, Edgar Rice: “Pellucidar” series; Mars series; Venus series
Carter, Lin: “World’s End” series
de Camp, L. Sprague: LEST DARKNESS FALL; THE FALLIBLE FIEND; et al
de Camp & Pratt: “Harold Shea” series; THE CARNELIAN CUBE
Derleth, August
Dunsany, Lord
Farmer, P. J.: “The World of the Tiers” series; et al
Fox, Gardner: “Kothar” series; “Kyrik” series; et al
Howard, R. E.: “Conan” series
Lanier, Sterling: HIERO’S JOURNEY
Leiber, Fritz: “Fafhrd & Gray Mouser” series; et al
Lovecraft, H. P.
Merritt, A.: CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et al
Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; “Hawkmoon” series (esp. the first three books)
Norton, Andre
Offutt, Andrew J.: editor of SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS III
Pratt, Fletcher: BLUE STAR; et al
Saberhagen, Fred: CHANGELING EARTH; et al
St. Clair, Margaret: THE SHADOW PEOPLE; SIGN OF THE LABRYS
Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; “Ring trilogy”
Vance, Jack: THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et al
Weinbaum, Stanley
Wellman, Manley Wade
Williamson, Jack
Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; “Amber” series; et al

 

[RaggleFraggle]

anyone posted Appendix N, Gygax's list of 'inspirational reading' for D&D yet? seems relevant

Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE HIGH CRUSADE; THE BROKEN SWORD
Bellairs, John: THE FACE IN THE FROST
Brackett, Leigh
Brown, Frederic
Burroughs, Edgar Rice: “Pellucidar” series; Mars series; Venus series
Carter, Lin: “World’s End” series
de Camp, L. Sprague: LEST DARKNESS FALL; THE FALLIBLE FIEND; et al
de Camp & Pratt: “Harold Shea” series; THE CARNELIAN CUBE
Derleth, August
Dunsany, Lord
Farmer, P. J.: “The World of the Tiers” series; et al
Fox, Gardner: “Kothar” series; “Kyrik” series; et al
Howard, R. E.: “Conan” series
Lanier, Sterling: HIERO’S JOURNEY
Leiber, Fritz: “Fafhrd & Gray Mouser” series; et al
Lovecraft, H. P.
Merritt, A.: CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et al
Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; “Hawkmoon” series (esp. the first three books)
Norton, Andre
Offutt, Andrew J.: editor of SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS III
Pratt, Fletcher: BLUE STAR; et al
Saberhagen, Fred: CHANGELING EARTH; et al
St. Clair, Margaret: THE SHADOW PEOPLE; SIGN OF THE LABRYS
Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; “Ring trilogy”
Vance, Jack: THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et al
Weinbaum, Stanley
Wellman, Manley Wade
Williamson, Jack
Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; “Amber” series; et al

Add Clark Ashton Smith to the list, among others

 

[Lucumo]

You are delusional if you think the millenial women who make up the majority of game writers and "narrative designers" are playing RPGs. They are also reading a lot more than you think. Bad news: those books are tween love triangle urban fantasy slop.

Yes, Japan is trying to imitate the west and struggling to execute but that is no different from the past.

One thing I noticed (and this applies across the board with male and female millennial writers) is that if you look into their interests, you find that what they're really invested in is young adult media. Namely anime and their western counterparts, such as stuff like Avatar: TLA or Adventure Time.

While a good argument may be had for the merits of this kind of media, the problem is that it's fundamentally made for younger audiences. Writers who are "inspired" by such stories are only motivated to regurgitate similar content, but with even less quality than their predecessors. In the modern era, this means making it edgier and with more sex.

Disagree in the sense that anime isn't fundamentally made for younger audiences. Sure, most of it is but there is also a lot that is for a more mature audience or they work in different ways, so that they can be enjoyed by a younger and older crowd. It's actually quite diverse. Additionally, one has to consider whether it's an original piece, a manga, a video game, a light novel, a web novel or a novel (series) adaptation. Some cases (particularly older OVAs) can also simply be an advertisement for the manga.
One of the main issues with anime is that what is outwardly shown is typically the most degenerate side aka hentai, moe stuff, shounen stuff and current shit in general.

As @The Wall said, there's very clear differences between video games, which are curated/guided experiences, and traditional games like chess.

This is like comparing theater to film, except I would argue the gap is even wider with games.

Yeah, whatever, your visual novels are heckin valid novels, weebs are all very cultured, Fate/stay night is the equal of Divina Commedia, The Decameron and The Canterbury Tales. Walking sims are brilliant masterpieces of an art never seen before with massive potential, sure, if you say so. But the fucking point I've been making for the last couple of pages isn't about that. It's the role of writing in regards to games, you know the rules and what you actually do, scoring points, interactivity, gameplay?

I doubt anyone would call Fate/stay night equal to those, even weebs. However, that doesn't mean that a lot of merit can't be found inside that particular VN (like the confrontation between an idealistic youth, born out of exceptional circumstances and the inevitable result of that person).

And while I haven't watched anime in like 2 1/2 years and barely played any Japanese game in the same time frame, I actually do respect their commitment (and as such, knowledge on the matter) to their work. They implement concepts, both native and foreign to them. They do their research with due diligence, especially for larger projects. But, unfortunately, they, too, have come under influence of ESG, although it was later than here in the "West".

But that's beside the point because the character description specifically stated that women are the "main" hunters. That is what I do not find believable. Sending the childbearing population out to hunt big game.

Well, the part i found counterintuitive was the reasoning that it was because they were the "childbearing population" that they wouldn't be sent (which is why i wrote the program to confirm my hypothesis that it wouldn't actually matter), however what would make sense from a practical perspective when taking the entire population / society / tribe into account and what would actually happen based on societal norms of said population / society / tribe do not have to match.

That program is bs though, as it ignores a lot of factors like these (which I also immediately thought of):

If women are pregnant all the time, or half of their time while they are in their physical prime, and take min: 2 years to raise and breast-feed per child, how the fuck they hunt all the time?

One more missing variable: women are shitty hunters. Average woman is a prey, not a hunter. They would easily get killed or get other men killed trying to save stupid Stone Age Hoe from her abusive ex-boyfriend - SaberToothTiger

The "shitty hunter" above also includes physical fitness/ability to outrun game, coordination between hunters, rational and critical thinking in time of crises/something unexpected happening and durability in general. The stepping on sharp rocks -> infection -> death is a good argument too.

 

[Axel_am]

Disagree in the sense that anime isn't fundamentally made for younger audiences.

Huh?

Sure, most of it is

Whaat...

One of the main issues with anime is that what is outwardly shown is typically the most degenerate side aka hentai, moe stuff, shounen stuff and current shit in general.

But those are the biggest anime stuff... What is this guy even saying...

 

[Lucumo]

Disagree in the sense that anime isn't fundamentally made for younger audiences.

Huh?

Sure, most of it is

Whaat...

One of the main issues with anime is that what is outwardly shown is typically the most degenerate side aka hentai, moe stuff, shounen stuff and current shit in general.

But those are the biggest anime stuff... What is this guy even saying...

I don't know how I'm supposed to help you with your lack of reading comprehension. I guess one would need to know what "fundamentally" and "most of the anime made" means.

 

[Axel_am]

Well you can start by writing better posts.

If the biggest genres in manga are shounen, hentai and moei it's not such a stretch to think that manga is mainly for teens/young adults. Sure there are titles that go way beyond that but that's like 5%. So fundamentally what sustains the better part of the industry is exactly young adult shit, right?

 

[Tyranicon]

There's a hot take I heard regarding anime that I'll paraphrase here.

It's okay to like weeb media because there are actually really good manga/anime. It's not okay to admit it in educated company because the popular stuff is still overwhelmingly garbage.

 

[Lucumo]

Well you can start by writing better posts.

If the biggest genres in manga are shounen, hentai and moei it's not such a stretch to think that manga is mainly for teens/young adults. Sure there are titles that go way beyond that but that's like 5%. So fundamentally what sustains the better part of the industry is exactly young adult shit, right?

Says the person who apparently doesn't know the difference between manga (comics) and anime (Japanese animation in general).

There's a hot take I heard regarding anime that I'll paraphrase here.

It's okay to like weeb media because there are actually really good manga/anime. It's not okay to admit it in educated company because the popular stuff is still overwhelmingly garbage.

That makes no sense though. Whoever wrote that is an idiot because as I wrote above, anime (and manga even more so) is incredibly diverse. It really can't be compared to American cartoons where 99% is for children and the 1% is mainly from several decades ago. "Weeb media" isn't a thing. Weebs are degenerates who think Japan is heaven on earth. For instance, if you actually learned the Japanese language, you are already above "weeb" status. The admitting/not admitting thing is weird. Any educated company wouldn't judge and the only people that do are generally the weebs and retards who don't know anything about anime but feel the need to make stupid comments.

If one wants to actually delve into the medium, it's pretty difficult to find communities for that, as most are populated by people one would rather avoid.