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Nutmeg

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Hi everybody,

I think a reasonable hypothesis is that enjoyment of adventure games affects how role playing games are played.

So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games? Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?

For example I do not enjoy adventure games and, with few exceptions, the only enjoyment I get from role playing games is optimizing my party build strategy, combat tactics, and order of travel, so that I complete the game (usually in a completionist sense) in the lowest amount of in-game time possible. Hence, for me, "Might and magic 6" represents a very high point in role playing game design.
 
In My Safe Space
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When I think of adventure games, I immediately think of collecting weird items and combining them in weird ways and then using them in weird ways. I don't think non-combat centric cRPGs are that closely related to that genre.
 

SuicideBunny

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Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
quest for glory
/thread
When I think of adventure games, I immediately think of collecting weird items and combining them in weird ways and then using them in weird ways. I don't think non-combat centric cRPGs are that closely related to that genre.
well, pnp rpgs abundantly involve problem solving, often via application of whatever you have in weird and creative ways. adventures essentially crystalised that aspect of pnp to the point of absurdity, though the hybrids like qfg and hq which offer multiple solutions to situations based on item and ability availability are pretty close to the source (and also pretty awesome).
 
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In My Safe Space
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quest for glory
/thread

well, pnp rpgs abundantly involve problem solving, often via application of whatever you have in weird and creative ways. adventures essentially crystalised that aspect of pnp to the point of absurdity, though the hybrids like qfg and hq which offer multiple solutions to situations based on item and ability availability are pretty close to the source (and also pretty awesome).
Interesting. Should I check out Quest for Glory?
 

jagged-jimmy

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More like Visual Novel + IE cRPG than adventure game.
Well, you do combine/search items and puzzle talk to NPCs in the right sequence to progress. A lot of stuff happens also adventure style - because there are no skills and you trigger everything by texting.
 

SuicideBunny

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Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
Interesting. Should I check out Quest for Glory?
it's definitely worth checking out and analysing a bit how different classes play and solve stuff, including paladins which you get to play when you import a char into a sequel.
just be aware that being able to do some stuff might require some grinding, as the game never tells you target numbers and you improve stuff via usage, and that there are some sudden death moments typical for sierra adventures.
 
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Lilura

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So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games?
Not really, but I loved The Secret of Monkey Island on the Amiga.

Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?

I'm not into the genre enough to have a fave series.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?

Yes. That's pretty much all I play them for these days. I honestly don't give a flying fuck about stories or "role-playing" anymore, though I've been known to frivolously engage in them at times (see sig). For me the powergaming part also includes creating interesting challenges that people doubt I can do, like exclusively ranged attack in Hordes of the Underdark or soloing BG2 + ToB without leveling up, or passive runs and the like. You know, stuff people never talk about here (they're still trying to solo BG2 for the first time...)

Just a note, one of the worst designed "puzzles" ever was in Fallout 2, and was caused by stupid adventure game influence.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games? Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?

I don't tend to enjoy Adventure Games. Well, I do really enjoy adventure games, it's just that they will always have some kind of inevitable fuck-you moment where all progress hinges on either a pixel-hunt from hell or some form of puzzle invented by a crackhead that requires a walkthrough just to comprehend what you're supposed to do. So I rarely ever complete one happily, even if I love the game.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?

I try to take as long as possible when I play an RPG for the first time and I just use the information the game provides plus historical common-sense to build myself a character that the game seems to be encouraging me to make - I don't spoil myself with the games ideal min/maxes prior to playing the first time. I like to try and immerse myself in the game's setting and lore as much as possible, but if most of it is pointless horseshit written in a fake ye olde language/space babble that has nothing to do with the game at hand I turn off to it very quickly. I never speed run, even on 2nd 3rd or whatever playthrough, I like to get my money's worth. I might try some power gaming on 2nd or 3rd playthrough once I've read-up some game details and tips and tricks.

I suppose my question to you is why do you want it all over as quick as possible? RPGs aren't scoring games in that sense... are they...?
 

Nutmeg

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I suppose my question to you is why do you want it all over as quick as possible? RPGs aren't scoring games in that sense... are they...?

I mentioned Might and magic 6, which did indeed score the player on in-game time spent (less is better). Have you played it?

One problem with Might and magic 6 is that the map isn't randomly generated every playthrough. A Might and magic 6 with this element would be a good thing.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games? Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?
Not unless their puzzles are both well-designed and don't end up being a huge bottleneck. The only games I could remember are Beneath a Steel Sky and Broken Sword. Fuck whoever thinks that adventure games must feature retarded puzzles like 'combine dong and butter to receive fire, then use fire on ass to receive the baseball bat, combine baseball bat and cockroach to receive death ray, use death ray on a baby to kill the final boss'.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?
I prefer when I can immerse myself in a small, yet tightly-packed world (fuck Skyrim and other TES games in that regard), while having a cool story and lore to read and masturbate. Age of Decadence demo is pretty good in that regard. I enjoy watching speedruns from time to time to entertain myself a little bit.
 

octavius

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So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games?

Don't have the patience for them, and I enjoy CRPGs, FPS'es and Turn Based Strategy much more. So I don't play Adventure games anymore.

Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?

Best Adventure Game I ever played was Legend of the Sword (it was not too weird/difficult, was quite logical, and had some CRPG elements). I was disappointed that both The Trickster and CRPG Addict skipped it on their blogs.
Also liked The Hobbit, The Pawn, Guild of Thieves, Deja Vu and Shadowkeep, but that was when I had the patience for Adventure Games.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?

Speed running? No, if it means completing it ASAP real world time. Power gaming: only if the game is too hard to (try to) role play.

For example I do not enjoy adventure games and, with few exceptions, the only enjoyment I get from role playing games is optimizing my party build strategy, combat tactics, and order of travel, so that I complete the game (usually in a completionist sense) in the lowest amount of in-game time possible.

That sums it up well for me as well. But I tend to "LARP" more if the game is easy and single character (like Morrowind and Oblivion), or use "house rules" (playing Iron Man Light, only rest once or not more than 8 hours combined a day, and such) if a party based game is too easy (like the Gold Box games and IE games).

Hence, for me, "Might and magic 6" represents a very high point in role playing game design.

One of the better post-DOS CRPGs.
But how do you feel about Wizardry 5-7? I think those games have the strongest Adventure Game elements of any CRPGs I've played, with Wiz 7 having some silly enough to be in a real Adventure Game.
 

DraQ

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I prefer when I can immerse myself in a small, yet tightly-packed world (fuck Skyrim and other TES games in that regard)
But Skyrim and Morrowind *are* small, tightly packed worlds.
:?
Compare Daggerfall with that.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?
I don't enjoy speedrunning, I enjoy powergaming *IF* it doesn't feel like taking a candy from a quadriplegic kid (sadly in quite a few games I enjoy - *cough* TES *cough* - it does - and more),
but flavour has precedence over it so if I want to have certain vastly suboptimal race/class combo or dislike a vastly preferable gameplay option, then fuck optimization.
 

Nutmeg

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So far my hypothesis seems correct, but there are very few data points.

I'm very glad I asked questions in a way that allows responders to explain their answer.

But how do you feel about Wizardry 5-7? I think those games have the strongest Adventure Game elements of any CRPGs I've played, with Wiz 7 having some silly enough to be in a real Adventure Game.
I can't say. Never gave them a proper go. I tried to play Bane of the cosmic forge recently, but it raised the following red flags:
  • Very slow combat (is it because there's no combat log?)
  • Difficult interface that required both mouse and keyboard for the same action.
  • Unlimited "profession" changing.
  • Seemingly inexhaustible random encounters.
As stated though, I don't think I gave it a proper go. Maybe it's an engaging experience anyway.
 

V_K

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Hi everybody,
So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games? Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?
Yes.
I'd even go as far as to say that theoretically I should probably enjoy Adventures more than RPGs as I'd take a hard puzzle over a hard fight any day. In practice however I don't, for three reasons:
1) Adventures tend to be too linear and commited to a given narrative. I'm not even talking about C&Cs here (could do without them really) but just basic freedom of movement: in most Adventures you only have access to a couple of scenes at any given moment.
2) For the most part Adventures lack alternative solutions to problems. Though to be fair most RPGs also do.
3) For some reason most Adventure designers tend to think these games should be humorous. Maybe to justify the twisted puzzle logic, I don't know. Thing is, most of them aren't great comedians. And even if humour is good, it still gets tiresome after a while.
So a non-humorous non-linear Adventure with alternative solutions would be right up my alley. But I don't know if even one such game exists (Primordia comes close but it's still quite linear and short). Thus I mostly survive off RPG/Adventure hybrids or puzzle-heavy RPGs, as they usually offer more free-form gameplay.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?
For the most part I start by exploring every nook and cranny but by mid-to-late game I get tired of repetitive fights and either rush the main story or quit the game altogether.
 

Zombra

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I think a reasonable hypothesis is that enjoyment of adventure games affects how role playing games are played.
I don't really see the correlation as they are rather different experiences. A typical adventure game has a set and linear story which is central to the experience, and a series of ingredients that must be combined in a very specific order to progress from A to B. In a typical western RPG, story is peripheral to combat, and progression is nonlinear in the sense that the player generally has multiple and often random means of progressing, not from A to B in the story, but in character power. There are certainly adventure type elements such as find the key to open the door, but these are also largely peripheral to the meat of the experience. Once character power reaches a certain level, the game can be completed, generally by fighting a final battle that previously would have been impossible. It is perfectly possible to enjoy both types of experiences, or one or the other, or neither. I guess playstyle expectations of one might carry over into the approach to another for an enthusiast of one style, but it doesn't seem necessary at all.

I guess it would be helpful if you were more explicit about your theory, i.e. 'Adventure enthusiasts tend towards speed-run style RPG play' or whatnot.

So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games? Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?
Generally, no; or rather, I do enjoy them, but far less than other types of games. More than any other type of game, they require reading the minds of the developers, in a bad way. My favorite example is a hedge of impassable thorn bushes that can only be overcome by pouring rancid apple juice on them so that a nearby group of goats eat them.

I recently played the rerelease of Broken Sword: The Shadow of the Templars and enjoyed it quite a bit, largely due to most of its puzzles actually making sense while still (sometimes) being challenging, a well done built-in hint system, and lack of fail states.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?
To me, speed running is for people who prefer 'beating' games to actually playing them, and powergaming implies exploiting a game's mathematical systems past the point of developer intention - again for those who find more joy in breaking a system than engaging it.* ** I play RPGs to develop characters my way and to bring them to life through exploration of the game's systems and stories. I generally have the most fun constructing 'suboptimal' characters, built to personality concepts rather than a mathematical algorithm (or, worse, a "build guide"), and finding ways to succeed in a manner consistent with those characters. The best role-playing, whether in P&P or in a CRPG, is to be found in character weakness, not strength.

*I do approve of difficult games such as Dark Souls which all but require the munchkin mindset, but RPGs typically are nowhere near this tough. Developer intention is key here.
**Also, I realize that I am getting preachy here about bad people who play the wrong way, when there "really" "is" no "wrong" way to enjoy a game. I get it. No one needs to call me on it.
 

Infinitron

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I object to the characterization of adventure games as "story games". A good open and non-linear "puzzle solving zone" in an adventure game has qualities that transcend story (even as it contextualizes them). And that is what the first adventure games like Zork were.

In fact, comparisons have been made between adventure games and RPGs with "grognardy" systems. RPGs with stats and skills that you MUST have in order to win, or with lots of save-and-reload-until-you-get-it-right encounters, are kind of like adventure games where you need to find a certain item in order to progress.
 
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Lilura

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To me, speed running is for people who prefer 'beating' games to actually playing them,

No, to speedrun a game you must have played it countless times first. Many speedrunners adore the games they run and are intimate with them, they've just reached a level of knowledge and skill that goes far beyond others - which makes everyone jelly.

and powergaming implies exploiting a game's mathematical systems past the point of developer intention - again for those who find more joy in breaking a system than engaging it.* **

cRPG combat is built around the concept of elegance and efficiency. I power-game not to make the game easy, but to find it's limits. In my Hordes of the Underdark run I house-ruled a ranged-only party, and succeeded by power-gaming that concept (I think there were doubts in the topic I could succeed).

Basically, speed-running and power-gaming are ways to extend a game's life, too - for me at least.

The best role-playing, whether in P&P or in a CRPG, is to be found in character weakness, not strength.

This is hipster bullshit.
 

Zombra

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I object to the characterization of adventure games as "story games". A good open and non-linear "puzzle solving zone" in an adventure game has qualities that transcend story (even as it contextualizes them). And that is what the first adventure games like Zork were.
Completely fair. I was speaking in terms of more modern standards for these genres. I don't play a lot of adventure games, but as far as I'm aware the Zork style nonlinear adventure hasn't been made in a long time. And full disclosure a game like Wizardry I from the same era barely even qualifies as an RPG to me any more :oops:

The best role-playing, whether in P&P or in a CRPG, is to be found in character weakness, not strength.
This is hipster bullshit.

In my Hordes of the Underdark run I house-ruled a ranged-only party
Hmmm, so you challenge yourself with self-imposed limitations yet call it bullshit if others enjoy doing the same +M
 

Nutmeg

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Zombra,

The correlation I'm looking for isn't between the features or even aspects of the two genres themselves, but rather the people who play them. I am aware the genres themselves are dissimilar.

With regards to speed running and powergaming, yes a lot of it is about "solving" the game (much like you would with an intracate lock). For non-multiplayer games (whether the other player is an A.I or a human is not important), this is the only challenge AFAICT. Of course, after you beat (as you put it) the game once, players can and often do impose handicaps for their next playthrough, which encourages creativity in their solution.

Anyway, could you further explain your thoughts regarding "developer intent"? If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that enjoyment is maximized if a player plays according to developer intent. Why is this? Is it a meta-challenge where you try and piece together this intent?

I'm having trouble understanding.

Infinitron,

Zork is absolutely not the kind of adventure game I have in mind. I refer specifically to adventure games in the spirit of Lucas Arts and Sierra PC titles of the late 80s and early 90s.
 
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Infinitron

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Infinitron,

Zork is absolutely not the kind of adventure game I have in mind. I refer specifically to adventure games in the spirit of Lucas Arts and Sierra PC titles of the late 80s and early 90s.

It doesn't matter. All well-crafted adventure games can provide the experience I speak of.

Anyway, bottom line, being an adventure game fan is obviously not a necessary condition for avoidance of powergaming. If you want to evangelize powergaming then feel free, but I don't see why you have to drag another genre into it. Lots of people under a certain age have probably never even played an adventure game.

And if what you're really trying to say is "people who really like story don't like powergaming because it interferes with their immersion in the story", well, okay? Not much of an insight, that. We call them "storyfags".
 
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