After playing a lot of JRPGs, most CRPGs became tedious

[JDR13]

That one is new, and I don't know how it would even work. I remember Xenogears was meant to be one game of a long series, but it's even more different tone-wise than Trigger. It also has tons of Evangelion-esque references that don't make sense at all with the other game.

You're probably thinking of Xenosaga. That was supposed to be a long series. It was originally planned to be six games but was changed to three after the first game was released.

it's the same thing, Xenosaga was supposed to be either the far future or the far past of the Xenogears universe 'sort of' and Xenogears was sort of like Star Wars in which Xenogears was supposed to be like episode 6 of a series or something. Developer/publisher woes changed all that which is why Xenogears became Xenosaga sort of and, while I haven't played Xenoblade yet I'm pretty sure Monolithsoft is the same company that did Xenosaga so Xenoblade series may even be tangentially related to the whole saga.

It's been many years since I played Xenogears and had an interest in learning more about it, but if I recall there was some sort of Xenogears Perfect Works or Ultimaniax book released in Japan that detailed a lot of what lightbane was talking about with Xenogears being one part of a story that was supposed to be told over numerous sequels and Xenosaga might have something similar or some old developer interviews to explain the connection more.

Not really. Xenosaga is a spiritual successor to Xenogears, nothing more. It had a lot of the same developers who left Square because they weren't happy there, and they formed Monolith. They then masde the Xenoblade games later on after being acquired by Nintendo.

There was a sequel to Xenogears planned at one point, but I've never seen it said that multiple games were planned from the beginning. That was only the case with Xenosaga.

 

[mogwaimon]

https://archive.org/details/XenogearsPerfectWorksEnglish/page/n3/mode/2up

Check the scanslated version of the Xenogears Perfect Works for yourself, page 2 in particular where it talks about the 'episodes' of the Xenogears universe chronology. They made note of episodes 1 and 6 in particular requiring more fleshing out, but it's still implied by this that there was to be far more to Xenogears than just the one game. From the outset, Takahashi (the man behind Xenogears and one of the people who left to form Monolith) had an entire sci-fi universe in his head that he wanted to flesh out with more games, books, manga, etc. And they DID want to make a sequel to it, you can see it from the Perfect Works book and the end credits for Xenogear teasing it as 'episode 5', and also part of the reason Takahashi was unhappy with Square, in your words, was because Square wouldn't greenlight a Xenogears sequel. Maybe Square didn't conceive of it as a franchise, especially since this was the Square that was dumping all their cash into friggin Spirits Within instead, but the guys who formed Monolith sure did.

And what was the first game Monolith did? Xenosaga, telling the story of an interplanetary conflict with aliens and shit, similar to what the Perfect Works said was supposed to happen in Episode 1 of Xenogears. So did you think it was just some sort of coincidence that two of the main franchises by the developers of Xenogears who'd gone on to form their own studio, Xenosaga and Xenoblade, had the Xeno prefix or...? because I think Takahashi and his team are still trying to tell the story they conceived of back in 98 one way or the other, even if they can't do it exactly the way they want.

You can also find a confirmation in a fairly recent interview with the president of Monolith, Sugiura, here https://www.frontlinejp.net/2020/05...irits-within-monolith-soft-president-sugiura/


and the translated interview itself here unfortunately this is the wrong interview, this is a Q&A with Takahashi and not the Sugiura interview from the same issue, having trouble finding the text unfortunately
https://xenomira.wordpress.com/2020/05/21/famitsu-june-4th-edition-takahashi-qa/

 

[Ravielsk]

What I find CRPGs and JRPGs have very much in common is that they both seem to be unable to let go of past conventions. JRPGs for some reason still have trouble grasping that random over-world encounters were a technical compromise made for (by todays standards) calculator hardware, not a conscious decision by the designer to have the game pause every other minute to repeat the same battle. They straight up cannot let go of this concept so hard that even when they make all the random encounters visible and the game has full realtime combat, its still not hitting them that this whole concept is just bonkers and that in fact do not need a fight every five steps.

CRPGs suffer from much the same as they also struggle to grasp that half of their conventions are compromises made for the pen and paper format and the other half was again done because of weak hardware. Dungeons for example exist in DnD because its a fine way to represent player movement in a confined yet moldable space on paper, which is why on paper there is a tendency to spiral things back into a "dungeon like environment". But with a game you dont need to make everything a dungeon nor do you need to make them as big simply by virtue of having way more than any pen and paper session could ever have. Same goes for dice rolls, they are a compromise for pen and paper but in video game format they are just an annoying randomizer.

Both sub-genres seem to have trouble actually moving forward because of this. Its as if shooters as a genre refused to use mouselook because the first few shooters only supported keyboard.

 

[JDR13]

And what was the first game Monolith did? Xenosaga, telling the story of an interplanetary conflict with aliens and shit, similar to what the Perfect Works said was supposed to happen in Episode 1 of Xenogears. So did you think it was just some sort of coincidence that two of the main franchises by the developers of Xenogears who'd gone on to form their own studio, Xenosaga and Xenoblade, had the Xeno prefix or...? because I think Takahashi and his team are still trying to tell the story they conceived of back in 98 one way or the other, even if they can't do it exactly the way they want.

Do you not understand what a "spiritual successor" is?

You can also find a confirmation in a fairly recent interview with the president of Monolith, Sugiura, here https://www.frontlinejp.net/2020/05...irits-within-monolith-soft-president-sugiura/

Confirmation of what? It clearly states there that they were planning a Xenogears 2, exactly as I said. They couldn't do it for obvious reasons, but they did make Xenosaga 1-3 as a spiritual successor like I mentioned.

As far as what's in Xenogears Perfect Works, that's just basic outlines for more stories. That's not the same thing as official plans for more games beyond Xenogears 2. It was never like Xenosaga where they actually stated from the beginning that they were going to make "X' amount of games.

 

[mogwaimon]

And what was the first game Monolith did? Xenosaga, telling the story of an interplanetary conflict with aliens and shit, similar to what the Perfect Works said was supposed to happen in Episode 1 of Xenogears. So did you think it was just some sort of coincidence that two of the main franchises by the developers of Xenogears who'd gone on to form their own studio, Xenosaga and Xenoblade, had the Xeno prefix or...? because I think Takahashi and his team are still trying to tell the story they conceived of back in 98 one way or the other, even if they can't do it exactly the way they want.

Do you not understand what a "spiritual successor" is?

You can also find a confirmation in a fairly recent interview with the president of Monolith, Sugiura, here https://www.frontlinejp.net/2020/05...irits-within-monolith-soft-president-sugiura/

Confirmation of what? It clearly states there that they were planning a Xenogears 2, exactly as I said. They couldn't do it for obvious reasons, but they did make Xenosaga 1-3 as a spiritual successor like I mentioned.

As far as what's in Xenogears Perfect Works, that's just basic outlines for more stories. That's not the same thing as official plans for more games beyond Xenogears 2. It was never like Xenosaga where they actually stated from the beginning that they were going to make "X' amount of games.

you SAID Xenosaga is a 'spiritual successor, nothing more' and what I'm trying to tell you is that it IS something more, I'm not arguing against it being a spiritual successor because it is by necessity because Monolith didn't have the rights to Xenogears itself. I'm saying Xenosaga is supposed to take place in the Xenogears universe without directly referencing Xenogears because of copyright because that is what Takahashi intended to do, regardless of what Square wanted to do.

Moreover, all this quibbling about 'it was never like Xenosaga where they actually stated from the beginning that they were going to make X amount of games' is splitting hairs at best. Yes, Xenosaga was planned from the beginning on a production level to be a multi-part saga, original six parts in size but had to be downsized to three because of financial issues and other such things. Xenogears was not seen by Squaresoft as a franchise and they didn't intend to fund a sequel unless it sold a certain amount of copies (1 million) but Takahashi fought for a sequel and as I've said before the end credits and the Perfect Works support the idea that Xenogears was meant to be a series in the head of the lead developer. Square refusing to fund the sequel even though Xenogears came damn close to selling those 1 million copies is the catalyst for Monolith being born because Takahashi wanted to continue the story he was trying to tell. That's all, we're pretty much just arguing semantics here.

 

[JDR13]

you SAID Xenosaga is a 'spiritual successor, nothing more' and what I'm trying to tell you is that it IS something more, I'm not arguing against it being a spiritual successor because it is by necessity because Monolith didn't have the rights to Xenogears itself. I'm saying Xenosaga is supposed to take place in the Xenogears universe without directly referencing Xenogears because of copyright because that is what Takahashi intended to do, regardless of what Square wanted to do.

It's not the same universe nor is it supposed to be. They've even stated as much. From Tetsuya Takahashi himself...

"It's probably more suitable to say that it follows the direction and style of Xenogears", as well as "Now that we are under a different company, we figured we should start everything from scratch all over again. Though there are familiar faces that serve as important characters in Xenosaga, others are more like self-parodies, so we don't really want Xenogears fans to overreact. Like movies, sometimes you have the director of the movie or friend of the leading actor appearing as cameos, so it's similar to that."

 

[mogwaimon]

you SAID Xenosaga is a 'spiritual successor, nothing more' and what I'm trying to tell you is that it IS something more, I'm not arguing against it being a spiritual successor because it is by necessity because Monolith didn't have the rights to Xenogears itself. I'm saying Xenosaga is supposed to take place in the Xenogears universe without directly referencing Xenogears because of copyright because that is what Takahashi intended to do, regardless of what Square wanted to do.

It's not the same universe nor is it supposed to be. They've even stated as much. From Tetsuya Takahashi himself...

"It's probably more suitable to say that it follows the direction and style of Xenogears", as well as "Now that we are under a different company, we figured we should start everything from scratch all over again. Though there are familiar faces that serve as important characters in Xenosaga, others are more like self-parodies, so we don't really want Xenogears fans to overreact. Like movies, sometimes you have the director of the movie or friend of the leading actor appearing as cameos, so it's similar to that."

At least use the full questions and answers when you're citing something, christ. From https://www.gamespot.com/articles/xenosaga-interview/1100-2823598/


"GS: Is Xenosaga a direct sequel or prequel to Square's Xenogears?

YM: Though the development team is the same, they were previously working under Square for Xenogears, and now they have shifted to Monolith Software for Xenosaga. But with our relation between Square, I think it is difficult for us to say it is a direct sequel or prequel. It's probably more suitable to say that it follows the direction and style of Xenogears.

GS: Watching the trailer, we can't help notice that there are some familiar faces from Xenogears. Are these characters somehow related in Xenosaga?

TT: Now that we are under a different company, we figured we should start everything from scratch all over again. Though there are familiar faces that serve as important characters in Xenosaga, others are more like self-parodies, so we don't really want Xenogears fans to overreact. Like movies, sometimes you have the director of the movie or friend of the leading actor appearing as cameos, so it's similar to that."

you can infer from his remark just before saying 'it's probably more suitable to say that it follows the direction and style of Xenogears' about the relations with Square and whether or not they can say it's a direct sequel or prequel that regardless of internal feelings on the matter, they're likely prevented from confirming one way or another because of legal reasons. If a new rival company comes out and directly says 'hey we're making a sequel to that one game we did at the old company but under a different name' then that opens them up to being sued for copyright infringement. So obviously, they can't just come right out and say it, especially in an interview that happens just after the split from Square.

But I dunno. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. There's evidence that supports your side of the argument that hasn't been brought up yet such as this interview referencing Xenosaga here https://web.archive.org/web/20010421124204/http://www.monolithsoft.co.jp/interview.html which has some lines in it, which when thrown into Google translate sort of reveal that...

'--The first work has not been announced except that it is an RPG on PS2, but for us it is a continuation of that? I'm expecting it.
Takahashi:　My feeling is that I want to reset my world once more and recreate it from scratch. However, please be assured that you will never betray the people who supported the previous work.'

so...I'll just let it lie there, then, myself. I've got a different interpretation of the publicly available information than you do, that's all.

 

[JDR13]

Lol... writing it out like that doesn't change what's obvious. I'm starting to get the feeling that you would argue water isn't wet rather than admit that you're wrong about something.

It's obviously just a spiiritual successor, and there's no getting around that no matter how hard you try to spin it.

 

[mogwaimon]

Context matters for one, and for two I admit when I'm wrong when I'm proven wrong. If Tetsuya Takahashi came to the Codex tomorrow and said 'Xenogears was never meant to be more than just one game and Xenosaga is not a soft continuation of the universe I envisioned for Xenogears because Square wouldn't allow me to make more games in that universe' then hey, I'd be clearly in the wrong and I'd admit that. But unfortunately all we have to go on is quotes from interviews managed by PR teams and officially released literature expanding on said universe which leaves things open to interpretation.

 

[JDR13]

Context matters for one, and for two I admit when I'm wrong when I'm proven wrong. If Tetsuya Takahashi came to the Codex tomorrow and said 'Xenogears was never meant to be more than just one game and Xenosaga is not a soft continuation of the universe I envisioned for Xenogears because Square wouldn't allow me to make more games in that universe' then hey, I'd be clearly in the wrong and I'd admit that. But unfortunately all we have to go on is quotes from interviews managed by PR teams and officially released literature expanding on said universe which leaves things open to interpretation.

The context is identical. Writing out each question and answer in full doesn't change what he said or the meaning in the least.

Falling back on "Well we really don't know for sure, so it's open to interpretation" just shows that you know you're reaching here.

 

[mogwaimon]

Context matters for one, and for two I admit when I'm wrong when I'm proven wrong. If Tetsuya Takahashi came to the Codex tomorrow and said 'Xenogears was never meant to be more than just one game and Xenosaga is not a soft continuation of the universe I envisioned for Xenogears because Square wouldn't allow me to make more games in that universe' then hey, I'd be clearly in the wrong and I'd admit that. But unfortunately all we have to go on is quotes from interviews managed by PR teams and officially released literature expanding on said universe which leaves things open to interpretation.

The context is identical. Writing out each question and answer in full doesn't change what he said or the meaning in the least.

Falling back on "Well we really don't know for sure, so it's open to interpretation" just shows that you know you're reaching here.

I say it's open to interpretation rather than taking the adamant stance I had before BECAUSE I acknowledge the possibility that you might be right because of the information you've cited and that I've seen while trying to confirm where you pulled those quotes from. I am reaching at this point, yes, because there's not enough evidence to prove that I'm decisively correct in my original assertion but there's also not enough evidence to definitively confirm your side either.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Back when they were building hype for the Xenosaga series before the first one came out, they were definitely giving the impression that it was meant to basically be a reboot of Xenogears as much as they could without getting sued by Squaresoft.

 

[JDR13]

Back when they were building hype for the Xenosaga series before the first one came out, they were definitely giving the impression that it was meant to basically be a reboot of Xenogears as much as they could without getting sued by Squaresoft.

They wouldn't get sued for doing a reboot. A reboot doesn't have to have any direct connection. You could definitely say it's a reboot.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Back when they were building hype for the Xenosaga series before the first one came out, they were definitely giving the impression that it was meant to basically be a reboot of Xenogears as much as they could without getting sued by Squaresoft.

They wouldn't get sued for doing a reboot. A reboot generally has no direct connection. Just similar themes, etc. You could definitely say it's a reboot.

I don't think we're using these terms in the same way. You sound like you figure a reboot is the same as spiritual successor, whereas I'm talking about when you put out a game that reimagines the same IP and uses the same title, characters, etc.

In any case, my recollection of that launch and pre-launch hype is that they were bending over backwards to show a connection to Xenosaga while trying to balance that against the possibility of being sued by Squaresoft.

 

[JDR13]

Back when they were building hype for the Xenosaga series before the first one came out, they were definitely giving the impression that it was meant to basically be a reboot of Xenogears as much as they could without getting sued by Squaresoft.

They wouldn't get sued for doing a reboot. A reboot generally has no direct connection. Just similar themes, etc. You could definitely say it's a reboot.

I don't think we're using these terms in the same way. You sound like you figure a reboot is the same as spiritual successor, whereas I'm talking about when you put out a game that reimagines the same IP and uses the same title, characters, etc.

In any case, my recollection of that launch and pre-launch hype is that they were bending over backwards to show a connection to Xenosaga while trying to balance that against the possibility of being sued by Squaresoft.

There are both. For example, Prey by Arkane Studios was a reboot of the 2006 game by Human Head Studios. Yet they had no connection whatsoever.

Obviously in this case they couldn't use the same names, etc, but that's irrelevant because they started from scratch anyways like Takahashi said. Hence, it's a spiritual successor.

 

[SerratedBiz]

There are both. For example, Prey by Arkane Studios was a reboot of the 2006 game by Human Head Studios. Yet they had no connection whatsoever.

This is a retarded example, because Prey by Arkane Studios was developed under Bethesda as a publisher who acquired the rights to Prey as an intellectual property.

The example of Xenosaga vs Xenogears is that the former couldn't constitute a reboot since the developers did not own the intellectual rights to the franchise, and therefore wanted to get as close as possible without actually legally infringing on the copyright.

 

[JDR13]

There are both. For example, Prey by Arkane Studios was a reboot of the 2006 game by Human Head Studios. Yet they had no connection whatsoever.

This is a retarded example, because Prey by Arkane Studios was developed under Bethesda as a publisher who acquired the rights to Prey as an intellectual property.

The example of Xenosaga vs Xenogears is that the former couldn't constitute a reboot since the developers did not own the intellectual rights to the franchise, and therefore wanted to get as close as possible without actually legally infringing on the copyright.

The only thing retarded is you missing my point. Yes, Arkane owned the IP rights and Monolith Soft didn't which I'm fully aware of. That has nothing to do with what I said though.

I was simply pointing out that there is more than one kind of reboot. The fact that Arkane had the rights to the IP and yet made a game that had no connection whatsoever outside of the name only highlights what I said. A reboot doesn't have to share names, places, etc. I'm not calling Xenasaga a reboot, I just said you could call it one. It still makes more sense to call it a spiritual successor because that's what it is.

 

[SerratedBiz]

you're a retard, lmao.

 

[JDR13]

What an overwhelming argument. Thanks for participating.

 

[Beans00]

Breath of fire 2 isn't tedious? I rented that game when I was a kid and you had useless random encounters literally every 3 steps.


Also, FF7.... Really guy that's not tedious? Game is literally like 100 hours of nothing interesting happening unless you enjoy roleplaying an eco terrorist with amnesia.

 

[Endless]

JRPGs tend to have much better quality control, art and music. They are less likely to bait and switch you with a great opening chapter or whatever.

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[AdamReith]

JRPGs tend to have much better quality control, art and music. They are less likely to bait and switch you with a great opening chapter or whatever.

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Yes, faggot. The artwork tends to be pretty decent in most JRPGs.

Now fuck off.

 

[FuckLiefeldGiveMeChew]

There a some C.R.P.G.s out there that feel like J.R.P.G.s, and they are some of my favorite C.R.P.Gs: Superhero League of Hoboken, Bloodnet, Citizens of Earth and Space, The Real Texas, the Fallout series until 76 and Quest for Glory. Some of them are very flawed, but their style and humor make the frustration worth it.

J.R.P.G.s are very varied: Are you really going to claim that Final Fantasy Fantasy, Shin Megami Tensei, Disgaea, Lagrange Point, Metal Max, Zelda, Metroid, Shadow Hearts all play the same?

I have seen plenty of Western games with stolen music: Monkey Island's theme versus Down Under, Starfox's theme versus The Reflex, Leisure Suit Larry's theme versus When I'm 64, Elder Scrolls's dungeon music versus the Dalek music from Doctor Who

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

I have seen plenty of Western games with stolen music: Monkey Island's theme versus Down Under, Starfox's theme versus The Reflex, Leisure Suit Larry's theme versus When I'm 64, Elder Scrolls's dungeon music versus the Dalek music from Doctor Who

You missed the most famous one:

 

[mediocrepoet]

There a some C.R.P.G.s out there that feel like J.R.P.G.s, and they are some of my favorite C.R.P.Gs: Superhero League of Hoboken, Bloodnet, Citizens of Earth and Space, The Real Texas, the Fallout series until 76 and Quest for Glory. Some of them are very flawed, but their style and humor make the frustration worth it.

I haven't played all of those, but you think that the Fallout and Quest for Glory games feel like JRPGs? In what way?