Interview Age of Decadence - Defining RPGs Once Again

[Double Ogre]

Incorrect but better.

Comedy gold!

 

[St. Toxic]

I'm waiting for the inevitable "face-saving" flip-flop.

 

[Spectacle]

You're starting to sound really ridiculous VD. Defending a flaw as being an improvement is some of the worst kind of fanboy behavior, and a sign of severe cognitive dissonance.

Time to step back and reassess things logically, perhaps?

 

[Silellak]

You're starting to sound really ridiculous VD. Defending a flaw as being an improvement is some of the worst kind of fanboy behavior, and a sign of severe cognitive dissonance.

Time to step back and reassess things logically, perhaps?

I've never actually played Arcanum, but this entire argument seems ridiculous to me.

Despite admitting that the mirrored sprites are often incorrect, VD prefers their original mirrored appearance to the fixed, non-mirrored sprites. He also says a personal preference. I don't even see why this is worth debating.

I don't think cut artwork, even if it's 40% of the artwork in the game, is in any way the same as cut content, unless that artwork has no reasonable replacement. It's not like characters vanished when viewed from certain angles - they just appeared incorrectly. This is not on the same level as having entire segments of the game cut that drastically reduce both your amount of entertainment per dollar spent, as well as its potential quality, as happened in KotoR2.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Incorrect but better.

Comedy gold!

Well, what are we reviewing here? How good the sprites look or how realistic they are? Should we start bitching that the sprites don't hold weapons as awesome as Chuck Norris would? For example, why that motherfucker (original, 3rd from the left) is holding his axe down?

If we are talking about realism, then half of the mirrored sprites is incorrect by default. I thought that was kind of clear and doesn't require any discussions. I was under the assumption that we are discussing which sprites look better, which is, frankly, all I care about when it comes to sprites. Whether or not a half of the sprites appear to be left-handed is irrelevant.

You're starting to sound really ridiculous VD. Defending a flaw as being an improvement is some of the worst kind of fanboy behavior, and a sign of severe cognitive dissonance.

Jesus.... Left-handed sprites are a flaw now?

 

[User was nabbed fit]

I AM VERY ANGRY ABOUT AGE OF DECADENCE.

 

[Jora]

This has to be the most absurd off-topic I've ever seen.

I mean what?? Why is ANYONE even discussing this? The subject of important content being cut was mentioned once or twice, and suddenly people start pointing out differences in the SHADOWS of character models, or how many SMALL GEARS robots have in their arms.

Seriously what the fuck

 

[Double Ogre]

So, when choosing between the full frame set and a gimped one of the same model, you would prefer a gimped one? It isn't really a question of looking better, but being consistent. The model is the same, different angles can't really make it look worse.

But yeah, Troika's games are so damn perfect that even flaws in them must be actually improvements. It just seems to me that you're idolizing Troika, since you're trying so damn hard to make another Fallout/Arcanum, and you can't really admit that Troika's games had serious flaws. Think about it.

I just hope we won't have to face this kind of "improvements" in your game. Calling bugs features is ridiculous to say the least.

And tell you what? I am a Troika fan, you're not.

 

[made]

This has to be the most absurd off-topic I've ever seen.

I mean what?? Why is ANYONE even discussing this? The subject of important content being cut was mentioned once or twice, and suddenly people start pointing out differences in the SHADOWS of character models, or how many SMALL GEARS robots have in their arms.

Seriously what the fuck

That's how dead the genre is. What else is there to talk about?

 

[VonVentrue]

I agree with Jora. It's both hilarious and sad at the same time to see a perfectly good thread concerning VD's views on current cRPG "standards" turn into petty bickering over completely irrelevant things. Let this worthless bellum omnium contra omnes end, for Heaven's sake.

 

[Silellak]

And tell you what? I am a Troika fan, you're not.

I wasn't 100% certain you were trolling before, so I appreciate you clarifying it for those of us who were still on the fence.

 

[St. Toxic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmaFYj0XF7A&feature=related

Good show.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, when choosing between the full frame set and a gimped one of the same model, you would prefer a gimped one? It isn't really a question of looking better, but being consistent. The model is the same, different angles can't really make it look worse.

The first 3 sprites look better. That's pretty much a fact. Deal with it.

But yeah, Troika's games are so damn perfect that even flaws in them must be actually improvements. It just seems to me that you're idolizing Troika, since you're trying so damn hard to make another Fallout/Arcanum, and you can't really admit that Troika's games had serious flaws. Think about it.

Uh... what?

a) Troika games had plenty of flaws and nobody's denying that.
b) I've criticized different aspects of Troika games. Look up my Bloodlines impressions.
c) I'm not trying "so damn hard" to make another Fallout/Arcanum game.
e) Sprite mirroring is a technique. It's not a flaw or a bug.

And tell you what? I am a Troika fan, you're not.

...

 

[Shannow]

You're starting to sound really ridiculous VD. Defending a flaw as being an improvement is some of the worst kind of fanboy behavior, and a sign of severe cognitive dissonance.

Jesus.... Left-handed sprites are a flaw now?

If the sprite switches between right and left hand depending on what way it is facing (which is exactly what sprite mirroring boils down to) then yes, it is a flaw. It really bothered me in IE games and if I had known what caused it (and I do think there is an option to turn it off) I would have turned it off.
Of course, you are now wilfully misunderstanding Spectacle to make your point seem less flawed. Teaser for your great vid?

Anyway, can we now derail to something worth reading/flaming/trolling over?

 

[Vault Dweller]

If the sprite switches between right and left hand depending on what way it is facing (which is exactly what sprite mirroring boils down to) then yes, it is a flaw.

So, the mirroring technique itself is a flaw? Is that what you're saying?

Of course, you are now wilfully misunderstanding Spectacle to make your point seem less flawed.

Then kindly explain it.

Teaser for your great vid?

Can I have some quotes showing how my position has changed?

 

[Double Ogre]

So, when choosing between the full frame set and a gimped one of the same model, you would prefer a gimped one? It isn't really a question of looking better, but being consistent. The model is the same, different angles can't really make it look worse.

The first 3 sprites look better. That's pretty much a fact. Deal with it.

A ridiculous statement, considering that the model is the same. Obviously it's not completely symmetrical, so the sprites differ to an extent. This isn't the point, however. Mirrored = Inconsistent = Inferior. Any sane person would agree with that, there's no reason not to. If sprite mirroring was permanent (as in the frames were cut out from the game) we wouldn't have this debate, but since we have a choice here I see no reason to not choose the full set over the mirrored one.

a) Troika games had plenty of flaws and nobody's denying that.

FLIP-FLOP

c) I'm not trying "so damn hard" to make another Fallout/Arcanum game.

It's obvious to everyone.

e) Sprite mirroring is a technique. It's not a flaw or a bug.

The original argument was about cut content. Here we have 200Mb of inactive art. Fallouts didn't have this much, and I personally haven't heard of a game that did.

 

[Vault Dweller]

A ridiculous statement, considering that the model is the same.

Do you not see the difference?

... since we have a choice here I see no reason to not choose the full set over the mirrored one.

And I'm very happy for you.

a) Troika games had plenty of flaws and nobody's denying that.

FLIP-FLOP

*sigh* Are you a moron, Ogre? Be honest with me.

c) I'm not trying "so damn hard" to make another Fallout/Arcanum game.

It's obvious to everyone.

I guess that was a rhetorical question.

e) Sprite mirroring is a technique. It's not a flaw or a bug.

The original argument was about cut content. Here we have 200Mb of inactive art. Fallouts didn't have this much, and I personally haven't heard of a game that did.

In case you didn't notice the "cut content" claim of yours failed to generate supporters and died a long time ago and now your followers are claiming that mirrored sprites are either a flaw or a bug or both.

 

[MetalCraze]

VD just derailed this thread into a discussion about some unrelated shit and it's his very old trick to get himself out of an uncomfortable situation and make everyone look wrong.

He is truly a PR agent

 

[Vault Dweller]

Uncomfortable situation?

 

[Double Ogre]

In case you didn't notice the "cut content" claim of yours failed to generate supporters and died a long time ago and now your followers are claiming that mirrored sprites are either a flaw or a bug or both.

Huh?

Inactive content is inactive. 200Mb of wasted space. Care to name another game that had this much? Your argument was that Arcanum had no cut content. I presented the evidence. Deal with it like a man.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I explained that slightly different animations can hardly fit the definition of cut content, unless we are talking about the most anal and literal definition. Cut content (see the links I provided in the original post) is associated with gameplay. Sadly, the old animations don't change the gameplay at all.

 

[Davaris]

The original argument was about cut content. Here we have 200Mb of inactive art. Fallouts didn't have this much, and I personally haven't heard of a game that did.

As you said earlier they changed mid development to mirrored frames, which means part of the animations were rendered in full and part were rendered mirrored. So someone might have forgotten to strip the additional frames out, or they didn't have the time and money to do it. Neither reason makes them bad people.

 

[Double Ogre]

You lose your argument because I have my own definition of cut content. Sorry that I haven't told you this.

Yes, I see.

However, whether you like it or not, the scope is huge. 40% of the original character art is still included in the release version but is inactive, wasting a considerable amount of space.

 

[Double Ogre]

As you said earlier they changed mid development to mirrored frames, which means part of the animations were rendered in full and part were rendered mirrored.

I haven't said so. The game was intended to have full frames from the start. The decision to introduce sprite mirroring was a really late one (most probably just a month prior to the release of the demo). All sprites in the game have full frames, and everything works properly with sprite mirroring finally disabled in the unofficial patch, as tested by many people. On a side note, some character sprites that were made AFTER the introduction of sprite mirroring were still made with full frames regardless. A case in point - the final Bedokaan model.

 

[Silellak]

The discussion about cut content came about because we were discussing why Troika did not sell enough games to continue and generate support from publishers.

Viewed in that light, would anyone seriously make the argument that "mirrored sprites" actually cost Troika any sales of Arcanum, the same way that KotoR2 likely lost sales due to word-of-mouth spreading about the unfinished endgame, or Bloodlines likely lost sales due to being notoriously buggy?

Obviously there's no way we can accurately measure how Factor X affects sales of Game Y, but I think it is reasonable to assume people did not refrain from buying Arcanum due to the "cut content" of replacing their original sprites with mirrored sprites. The initial discussion went something like this:

Ogre: Troika failed because their games were always delivered late, over budget, and with cut content.

VD: Was Arcanum "late, over budget, and with cut content"?

Ogre: YES! They cut out 40% of their original sprite artwork!

While Ogre is technically right - Arcanum had CONTENT cut from it - the idea that the cut content affected the success (or lack there-of) of Arcanum is clearly absurd.