Editorial Age of Decadence May Update

[Ninjerk]

In the future, mining drill bits will be made from pieces of VD's skull.

 

[Shevek]

I think KS is tough for folks that do not have the name recognition of Obsidian. Please lots of people want physical rewards and that seems like a nightmare to fulfill.

 

[Morality Games]

Vault Dweller
Have you change your mind for a kickstarter fundraising for the Generation Ship RPG?

To be honest, if both AoD and the dungeon crawler fail to sell enough to keep us in business, I can't imagine going to KS and saying 'Hi, our games don't really sell but we want to keep making them...". If they sell, we won't need KS.

Ha. That's where you tout Unreal and say you're going for a larger scope this time.

 

[GloomFrost]

ha who needs this indie piece of shit with god awful isometric graphicz when FALLOUT 4 just got announced!!!!!! THE REAL POST APOCaLYPTCIC RPG that has a DOG in it!


Only kidding guys, can not bloody wait for a proper release. I wish you good luck and good sales .

 

[AbounI]

Vault Dweller
Have you change your mind for a kickstarter fundraising for the Generation Ship RPG?

To be honest, if both AoD and the dungeon crawler fail to sell enough to keep us in business, I can't imagine going to KS and saying 'Hi, our games don't really sell but we want to keep making them...". If they sell, we won't need KS.

Of course, you surely have a better idea than me to determine how much copies of both you need to sell to keep you in business, but considering they are designed for a very niche market, who can say that for now it fails when approximatively 15k copies are sold and that some are still waiting for Thursday to give you their money.
I mean, there are some niche KS project that were successfully funded with lesser than 15k backers.Please, consider Serpent, Dongeons of Aledorn, Lords of Xulima or even the other ITS's Dead State.
With AoD, you managed to show how you can be serious, so a KS for the Generation Ship could present strong garantees for the least convinced backers.Of course, it also depends on how much you would ask, and the time you need to deliver another big project, which is surely the most unknwon thing.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

I say take all the sweet, sweet kickstarter dollars you can. Brian Fargo and Obsidian will take all the monies they can get their mits on whether you do or not and their games have made way more than yours.

Besides, I personally would rather see ITS funded than POE2 or Elite: Sellout 2 or <insert Vaporware here>.

 

[mindx2]

I think KS is tough for folks that do not have the name recognition of Obsidian. Please lots of people want physical rewards and that seems like a nightmare to fulfill.

I imagine Vault Dweller has enough "connections" to get people like Avellone and others to lend quotes and endorsements on his KS page/launch video as well as tweeting out or adding links in their own KS updates to get enough exposure. VD just has this Begue-like aversion to easy money it seems...

 

[Ninjerk]

I think KS is tough for folks that do not have the name recognition of Obsidian. Please lots of people want physical rewards and that seems like a nightmare to fulfill.

I imagine Vault Dweller has enough "connections" to get people like Avellone and others to lend quotes and endorsements on his KS page/launch video as well as tweeting out or adding links in their own KS updates to get enough exposure. VD just has this Begue-like aversion to easy money it seems...

I'm imagining VD requiring anyone who wants to buy the game to suffer the labors of a demigod to purchase the combat game before he lets them have AoD.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Imagine you have a part time team working a project for a decade, chugging along without a fixed release date a relatively low financial preasure.

Now, you present a KS project for a new rpg, you have little to no name recognition, your previously released product is niche at best and never had the market impact to create a lasting brand impact on the public... This first allow you a great margin for asking for enough money for a project of the scope proposed solely funded by KS and with a shorter development cycle.

A failed KS or a successful KS that fails to deliver through underfunding and a sub-par product will damage iron tower more than they could handle at this point.

I think VD knows the risks of KS all too well.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

A failed or underfunded kickstarter would be no worse than no kickstarter at all. We're talking about extra money here, not funding the game solely through Kickstarter.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think KS is tough for folks that do not have the name recognition of Obsidian. Please lots of people want physical rewards and that seems like a nightmare to fulfill.

I imagine Vault Dweller has enough "connections" to get people like Avellone and others to lend quotes and endorsements on his KS page/launch video as well as tweeting out or adding links in their own KS updates to get enough exposure. VD just has this Begue-like aversion to easy money it seems...

It's not that. To do well on KS you need 3 things: physical rewards, which are a huge and rather expensive hassle; media attention which we won't get most likely, and stretch goals. A company like Obsidian or inXile can easily handle the first two. I don't want to do the physical rewards as it's too expensive especially since we'd have to mail from Canada to the US and we won't get much attention from the media (other than "oh look, another KS"). Even Mitsoda struggled to get media attention but he has the name and connections. I don't want to do stretch goals either to entice people into pledging more. The game's features should be determined by the design goals not pledges.

That brings us to my earlier point. KS isn't about getting funded, it's about getting what you can get. Obsidian or inXile can get a few million bucks, a guy like Mitsoda or an eyecandy project like Sui Generis that grabs media attention can get 200-500k. And then we have the low tier: Lords of Xulima - 35k, Serpents - 28k, etc. That's not funding, that's getting a bit of money (take away 10% in KS fees, taxes - the US will want you to pay for every buck made on the US soil, accounting, etc).

20-30k is better than nothing but it's not enough to cover a 3-year development cycle. I don't want to grab 20-30k and then explain that the project isn't actually funded, that it was a drop in the bucket, etc. So like I said, either AoD and the dungeon crawler sell enough or they don't. Fingers crossed.

 

[Zombra]

A failed or underfunded kickstarter would be no worse than no kickstarter at all.

Really? The various dev houses that turned themselves into public jokes with their resounding failures are still patting themselves on the back for their great decision to go to KS, you think? No harm done, right?

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

A failed or underfunded kickstarter would be no worse than no kickstarter at all.

Really? The various dev houses that turned themselves into public jokes with their resounding failures are still patting themselves on the back for their great decision to go to KS, you think? No harm done, right?

Which ones are those? I never heard about them. And if I never heard about them, most other people won't have heard about them either. Who cares what the kick starter community thinks, when they weren't willing to buy anyway?

Boo-hoo I'm so ashamed I only got $50,000. Guess I'll just have to cry myself to sleep at this extra money that I got for doing nothing. People need to take some lessons from Cleve.

 

[Zombra]

Which ones are those? I never heard about them.

So the name SHAKER doesn't mean anything to you? How about Deathfire (or, worse, THORVALLA)? Brenda and Guido, who I had never heard of before their pitches, now have public images as clowns who can't get it done. And they have less than jack to show for it.

And I never heard about them, most other people won't have heard about them either. Who cares what the kick starter community thinks, when they weren't willing to buy anyway?

The point is that doing PR damage to yourself is stupid. Throwing a random kickstarter page up "just in case" people decide to give you thousands of dollars can do more harm than good, and will do more harm than good if you don't meet goal, because you look stupid, you've wasted your time and energy, and your project now has a stink of failure to those who did try to support you.

There is plenty to be lost with a half-assed KS. It's not just random money you might get with zero possible downside.

(Where's your Kickstarter, by the way? If there's no reason not to have one, you should be posting one every day.)

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Which ones are those? I never heard about them.

So the name SHAKER doesn't mean anything to you? How about Deathfire (or, worse, THORVALLA)? Brenda and Guido, who I had never heard of before their pitches, now have public images as clowns who can't get it done.

Seriously, who the hell are you talking about? I have NEVER heard of any of them.

You know who makes shit games? Bethesda. There are even videos pointing out their game bugs and false promises all over the internet and they are still billionaires.

The point is that doing PR damage to yourself is stupid. Throwing a random kickstarter page up "just in case" people decide to give you thousands of dollars can do more harm than good, and will do more harm than good if you don't meet goal, because you look stupid, you've wasted your time and energy, and your project now has a stink of failure to those who did try to support you.

Again, the only people you will look stupid to are the people who wouldn't have bought your game anyway. Who cares what they think?

And as far as bad PR goes, you apparently don't remember the antics of Vince D. Weller in his various RPS interviews that had many characterizing him as a an angry loon. Those were people who wouldn't have bought the game. Do their opinions matter? No. Do they even remember at all? Probably not. Will anyone remember the failures of the names you mentioned above 2 years from now? Doubt it.

We live in a world where the average attention span is less than that of a gold fish. Todd Howard showed a video of "radiant AI", it was lies, he promoted it for years and then released a game with broken AI and people still bought it, still played it and still loved it.

Now Vince says he doesn't want to do a kickstarter and since when he's got his mind made up about something, I haven't known him to change it - probably the only reason AoD has survived so long - I think this discussion is rather pointless. But, in my opinion, as far as failing a kickstarter damaging an idie's PR beyond repair goes, it's just not true. Not unless you run a total scam, make promises with no idea of how or if you can fulfill them, or just quit working on the game before finishing it.

Simply failing to collect a certain amount of money isn't any more of a failure than failing to sell a certain amount of games. If you are someone who relies on publishers to take you seriously, then yeah, it could suck for you, but if you are a publisher-less indie catering to a small niche anyway, I don't see it making a difference. Not if you were planning on funding from other sources anyway.

 

[Zombra]

Fine, there are no possible downsides to running a disastrous failure of a kickstarter. Not even the loss of the effort made to run the campaign in the first place. None. Everyone should do it today. Bored.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

"Disasterous failure"? Woah, try not to overwhelm me with your optimism.

If you spend even 40 hours of effort to pull in 50 grand (or more, or less), I'd say that's hardly a wasted effort, but maybe I'm just not a billionaire like you, huh?

And everyone IS doing it these days - but not everyone is succeeding. Does that mean their lives or businesses have come to an end? Nope. That's my point.

 

[Goral]

If they had something to show other than promises there would be a good chance they could raise 50k or more. They would get press coverage for free and Age of Decadence would be advertised BTW. Also, there aren't many space RPGs so even people not interested in AoD could donate (it's also one of the reasons they would get press coverage). And those who liked AoD would definitely do it. Currently AoD has been sold in over 13k copies, if 25% of people who bought AoD would donate 25$ that would mean over 80k (and if it was only 10$ it would still be over 30k) which is significant amount of money. If it would allow IT to work on the game full-time and not worry about the money for x months that would most likely speed the development up.

As for physical goods, is there a rule there have to be some? They could only offer digital rewards at x$ and x$ for a IT bundle (i.e. the space RPG + AoD + 8$ combat game) or offer very limited amount of boxed copies. They could also ask for a realistic amount of money (500k or 1M) and not get funded but get coverage that way. That would still compensate the effort to make the campaign.

 

[Zombra]

If you spend even 40 hours of effort to pull in 50 grand (or more, or less), I'd say that's hardly a wasted effort

How about if you spend 40 hours of effort and pull in zero dollars?

 

[Lady_Error]

So the name SHAKER doesn't mean anything to you? How about Deathfire (or, worse, THORVALLA)? Brenda and Guido, who I had never heard of before their pitches, now have public images as clowns who can't get it done. And they have less than jack to show for it.

In those cases, the whole financing depended on KS - so it was a sort of make-or-break situation. I don't know what Brenda is doing now, but Guido decided to leave the world of game development again.

 

[Zombra]

So the name SHAKER doesn't mean anything to you? How about Deathfire (or, worse, THORVALLA)? Brenda and Guido, who I had never heard of before their pitches, now have public images as clowns who can't get it done. And they have less than jack to show for it.

In those cases, the whole financing depended on KS - so it was a sort of make-or-break situation.

True, but the point is that doing a KS isn't a zero-cost, zero-risk undertaking in any case.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Zero risk? No. Of course there is some risk. There is risk every time you roll your ass out of bed in the morning. Doesn't mean we should all be bedridden. There is a risk in asking a girl out - doesn't mean we should all be celibate. And it doesn't mean that the risk of being a little embarrassed is the same as commiting business suicide and being marked a laughing stock for the rest of time, like you imply.

If you spend even 40 hours of effort to pull in 50 grand (or more, or less), I'd say that's hardly a wasted effort

How about if you spend 40 hours of effort and pull in zero dollars?

Yeah, could happen. How about you do it and pulls in a million? Could also happen.

See what I did there? I exaggerated the possible result so that it would favor my argument even though it was unlikely. Sort of like you just did. Which is just as fallacious. Now how about you admit that your argument is bs and give up now, k?

 

[Infinitron]

Due to the way in which Kickstarter goals work, Zombra's scenario is far less unlikely, though.

Perhaps you'd like VD to debase himself to to the level of flexible funding Indiegogo or *gasp* Patreon?

 

[Zombra]

Now how about you admit that your argument is bs and give up now, k?

I already did 8 posts ago, but you can't let it go. I'll say it again: Kickstarter is a license to print free money with no downsides whatsoever, whatever effort you put into it will always be rewarded a hundredfold, and there is no reason for anyone not to do it ever ever ever ever despite possible consequences. Start your kickstarter today, everyone should. It is a well of success that never dries up and never disappoints, and it will be that way for all time. See? I'm agreeing with you. Hooray! Bored again.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

That style of post makes me feel like I'm on RPGWatch