Age of Decadence Reviews

[Black Angel]

So, first playthrough goes out in the window. Gonna try second time, this time less fight oriented character.

Do the tutorial first, and listen to what the devs has to say there to first time players.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Daggers-Shield

Weirdo.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Do the tutorial first, and listen to what the devs has to say there to first time players.

I did. And I read all tutorial info that there is.
Anyway, I ended in situation when I don't have enough money or civic skills to progress, and other solution is to fight big groups of dangerous people - alone.

 

[Kalin]

git gud

 

[Black Angel]

Daggers-Shield

Weirdo.

Yeah this part in particular is weird. Daggers are better for dodgers because it has little to no synergy with blocking.

Anyway, I ended in situation when I don't have enough money or civic skills to progress, and other solution is to fight big groups of dangerous people - alone.

Was it the mine or the raiders? You can definitely wipe them out all alone, provided you have the build for it. Even then, there are stuff you can get and utilize to make them easier to face, and it's up to you whether you want to use it or not.

Anyway, trying to play less fight-oriented char for your proper first playthrough might soil your experience because you really need to familiarize yourself with the game's mechanics first, and going full-fighter for that is the way to go and what the devs recommended as per the tutorial. The game is also very different from Fallout, I guess you're thinking of taking Daggers as if it's Fallout's Small Guns and then branch later to other weapons, am I correct? But it's definitely not as easy as Fallout, and even those who specialized their char from the very start would still find the game challenging.
My only recommendation for first proper playthrough is to familiarize yourself with the gameplay mechanics by playing the Merc route. You don't have to take Axe-Block or whatever skills they recommended, in fact you could switch the stats and skills allocation around and play a, for example, Sword-Dodge char. The chargen screen is very comprehensive and easy to navigate so here's your chance to see what stats affect what skills, and what character archetype you want to play.

 

[Ol' Willy]

After knocking into dead ends for some time I actually managed to unstuck! First playthrough pulled back out of the window, now I ready to go to Danezzar. Now I can see, when people drop the playthrough and start whining about unplayable builds, they just lack the proper insistence. Try different tactics, savescum a lot, and something could work.

Was it the mine or the raiders? You can definitely wipe them out all alone, provided you have the build for it. Even then, there are stuff you can get and utilize to make them easier to face, and it's up to you whether you want to use it or not.

Raiders were no problem. I just persuaded Dellar to pay. Mine was absolute no-go. Not enough sneaking - I level up sneaking - not enough lockpick - I level up lockpick - not enough lore - I run out of skillpoints. I was unable to kill them, even after I managed to poison their food.
But one of them is enough to go. I had problems in Maadoran, but after solving one quest all others went down eventually.

The game is also very different from Fallout, I guess you're thinking of taking Daggers as if it's Fallout's Small Guns and then branch later to other weapons, am I correct?

Nope, I think: daggers - low damage, low AP cost, high accuracy. If I level up daggers and criticals high enough, I could utilize flurries where every hit would be a critical. Seem good for me. By now, aimed attacks work well too. I could aim at arms and render opponent incapable of hiting me. Arterials bring down even guys with 11 DR armor.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, this game is skillcheck porn. Skillchecks and statchecks everywhere. Double skillchecks. Skillchecks on top of skillchecks. Some real dedication to the principle here.

The way I see it, you can't convince a person with a single line in real life, so complex dialogues require frequent checks.

But despite all this good things it didn't took me long to stuck. Went with Daggers-Shield-Persuasion, thinking about Small Guns-Speech scheme that worked so well in Fallout. I reach Maadoran and I can't progress anymore. I either don't have stats/skills, or get myself gutted in combat. So, first playthrough goes out in the window. Gonna try second time, this time less fight oriented character.

Which faction did you join? You're playing a hybird (fighter/talker), the hardest character type. For the first playthrough I'd strongly recommend either combat (mercenary) or diplomacy (merchant). Keep in mind that diplomacy requires different skills to be effective (like combat). At very least you need Persuasion and Streetwise (one to make strong arguments, the other to lie and manipulate). Impersonate and Lore are also very useful.

 

[Black Angel]

Nope, I think: daggers - low damage, low AP cost, high accuracy. If I level up daggers and criticals high enough, I could utilize flurries where every hit would be a critical. Seem good for me. By now, aimed attacks work well too. I could aim at arms and render opponent incapable of hiting me. Arterials bring down even guys with 11 DR armor.

You're correct, but the context of what I said there is that it's weird you took Block as a defensive skill in conjunction to Dagger as your offensive skill. Daggers relied on high DEX, which synergize with Dodge. Block needs STR, which you would generally don't have much if you use Daggers, unless you want high crit chance without much investment into the skill itself. And even Arterial Strike which you mentioned synergize with high PER for its crit chance formula.

 

[Ol' Willy]

You're correct, but the context of what I said there is that it's weird you took Block as a defensive skill in conjunction to Dagger as your offensive skill. Daggers relied on high DEX, which synergize with Dodge. Block needs STR, which you would generally don't have much if you use Daggers, unless you want high crit chance without much investment into the skill itself. And even Arterial Strike which you mentioned synergize with high PER for its crit chance formula.

Yeah, and I dumped Strength and Perception. But anyway, crits work well enough and it's surviving that I have most problems with.
But, anyway, it's the first time, proper first time without meta knowledge. Of course a lot of things would be botched by me here. It's good, I already want to start anew, but I got to finish that one build first.

You're playing a hybird (fighter/talker), the hardest character type.

Now I realize that. But now I can't convince anyone in anything because I dumped all my skillpoints into combat to stop dying. But at least I can kill people more or less reliable.
I went with Commercium in Teron, where I used my talking skills. But I was set up and from then on I worked with Boatmen. And Boatmen require more fighting.

The way I see it, you can't convince a person with a single line in real life, so complex dialogues require frequent checks.

It's awesome, and I wish that more games had such dialogue system, but aside from Nevada (and maybe Sonora, haven't play that one) I can't think of any more examples.
Also, man, I love how you can use your bodycount as a skillcheck. I always wanted that thing in Fallout.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Finished the game today. First playthrough. Blind, no metagaming, no googling (urge was strong, but I prevailed and resisted). Went with Commercium in Teron, in Maadoran had no choice but to work with Boatmen, and rolled smoothly from there on. In the end I was unable to kill Agathoth, so I kneeled, made 180 yet again and brought Antidas to power.

Picrelated for reference:

Spoiler

As you can see, my build is far from perfect, if you don't fancy words like "total bullshit". Proficiency in daggers and 10 Agility (old Fallout habit to have as much AP as possible), high crits - good points; proficiency in block and dumped Strength, reliance on crits and dumped Perception - far worse choices. No crafting and alchemy whatsoever, so I relied on weapons I found (Arbiter dagger served me from early Maadoran till the end, and this little precious knife compensated the lack of Perception with its THC bonus). Social skills were working only in Teron, then rendered useless, and unable to catch up when I dumped all available skillpoints into combat. Lockpick rendered useless without sneak and traps. 3 in trading was for free from benefactor, though.

And what's the most hilarious about this build? It worked, which is proven by bodycount number and Arena Champion title (thrice defended, even against Widowmaker). By the late game my brave Tiberius became a well oiled killing machine, gifting crits and bleeds left and right. After much suffering in the early Maadoran, this feeling when your combat build actually starts to work - precious. The pleasure I had by dispatching Thieves Guild' little ambush in Slums (after many-many deaths) and Hermons gang (I paid bastard 1000 earlier, I wanted it back, though I had 12K and nowhere to spent them) is something I rarely experience in the games. The only bastard that survived Tiberius wrath is Agathoth himself, but I will get the fucker next time.

Of course, I missed a helluva of non-combat content, and you can see - I didn't even spent my skillpoints after Ganezzar, for it was too late to level up something. But what I wanted to prove? Age of Decadence is perfectly playable from the first playthrough, no metagaming, no googling. Not only playable, but easily OPed combat-wise even by lopsided builds. When I thought that I stuck, it took a night of good sleep, and next day, with a fresh head, two quests finished and I was going forward.

Here, the conclusion: anyone, who speaks about unplayable builds in AoD is retard.

 

[thesecret1]

Haha, your build reminds me of my first (successful) playthrough – pure combat that gets me safely to the end. I was amazed on my next (talker) playthrough just how much content I completely bypassed this way.

 

[Elhoim]

Damn, you are now making want to play it again jajajaja

 

[Binky]

Finished the game today. First playthrough. Blind, no metagaming, no googling (urge was strong, but I prevailed and resisted).

The best way to play. Well done.

 

[Johannes]

Is it metagaming on your 2nd playthrough to visit places you've been on your 1st playthrough? And is it metagaming if you go out of your way to explore every nooks and cranny that can be explored, even if you didn't know beforehand what awaits you?

Honest question.

Yes.

Reading about the game on the 'dex is not the only way to gain knowledge of it. You can, and must, do trial and error thru reloads and/or restarts, and then the game becomes easier. On one hand through getting better at the combat, but more importantly learning how difficult the various quests are, and how you can get through them.

It's nonsense that you could plausibly get through the game with just being smart and logical, playing to your character's strengths without foreknowledge, or has somebody really completed it ironman on their first try?

 

[Thunar]

Is it metagaming on your 2nd playthrough to visit places you've been on your 1st playthrough? And is it metagaming if you go out of your way to explore every nooks and cranny that can be explored, even if you didn't know beforehand what awaits you?

Honest question.

Yes.

Reading about the game on the 'dex is not the only way to gain knowledge of it. You can, and must, do trial and error thru reloads and/or restarts, and then the game becomes easier. On one hand through getting better at the combat, but more importantly learning how difficult the various quests are, and how you can get through them.

It's nonsense that you could plausibly get through the game with just being smart and logical, playing to your character's strengths without foreknowledge, or has somebody really completed it ironman on their first try?

How is finishing a game blind the same as finishing a game ironman on your first try? And what point are you trying to make with that statement? That the game is not a walking simulator?

 

[Black Angel]

Reading about the game on the 'dex is not the only way to gain knowledge of it. You can, and must, do trial and error thru reloads and/or restarts, and then the game becomes easier. On one hand through getting better at the combat, but more importantly learning how difficult the various quests are, and how you can get through them.

What if I'm not playing the game to make it easier, but that I just want to play the game as is? What's the point in playing a game easy from the start, without proper challenges and progress my way to master the system? Somehow I can see people twisting this as if this game in particular couldn't be played without having deaths and bad ends during first playthroughs, and somehow that's a Bad Thing™. To that I'm just going to say any game where I could easily ironman my way on first playthrough must be so piss shit easy I'm might as well not even playing a game at all.

It's nonsense that you could plausibly get through the game with just being smart and logical, playing to your character's strengths without foreknowledge, or has somebody really completed it ironman on their first try?

You're saying that as if first playthroughs should always be ironman or it's invalid. Deaths in combat are inevitable when you haven't mastered the system and/or when you chanced upon bad rolls, and some times you might even die due to choosing either obviously bad options or options your char not good enough to choose. The difference is whether or not it's because you're having certain expectation that the game would just be lenient in allowing you to progress on your own whims or because the game is badly designed. I won't deny that AoD in particular has some stuff it could've better designed, like Etiquette having practically very minor presence throughout the game even when playing a Praetor, or Thief questline somehow played out more like an Assassin's from midgame onward. But most of the time people just need to git gud and accept they can't use a hybrid char to steamroll encounters as well as a properly build and developed fighters, or smooth talk and big brain their way through the game as well as properly made talker.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Started second playthrough. Rolled as merc, didn't change stats and went with axe and block as advised. Picked up lore and crafting to get all this tasty pre-war stuff. Combat is already much easier than before. That is, up until the throne room fight. I was wrecked, time and time again - until I decided to use head. Dellar is the biggest threat - he mows down my comrades one by one. So, he had to be wasted first, and after that fight is trivial. Easier said than done - he is dodger, he evades heavy attacks and light do diddly squat damage. I remember tutorial and the fact that against dodgers you should aim at legs. So, fight starts: by the mercy of Jove or whoever scripted his AI Dellar ignores me and goes against redhead guy. I position myself next to him and whack at his legs - he runs out of his dodging juice and dies very quickly. After that, fight is quite easy. It's remarkable that as soon as I adopted this tactic, I succeeded at the first try, with a good deal of HP left and three of my comrades surviving this fight.

Then, game bugged on me in a pleasant way. I finished jailbreak fight, pressed M - and the game thought that I'm still in Teron. So I went back to end some unfinished business there. Killed raiders, stole battery, had audience with Dellar and Antidas (with both of them being dead) and kept that battery to myself. Noice

 

[Johannes]

Reading about the game on the 'dex is not the only way to gain knowledge of it. You can, and must, do trial and error thru reloads and/or restarts, and then the game becomes easier. On one hand through getting better at the combat, but more importantly learning how difficult the various quests are, and how you can get through them.

What if I'm not playing the game to make it easier, but that I just want to play the game as is? What's the point in playing a game easy from the start, without proper challenges and progress my way to master the system? Somehow I can see people twisting this as if this game in particular couldn't be played without having deaths and bad ends during first playthroughs, and somehow that's a Bad Thing™. To that I'm just going to say any game where I could easily ironman my way on first playthrough must be so piss shit easy I'm might as well not even playing a game at all.

It's nonsense that you could plausibly get through the game with just being smart and logical, playing to your character's strengths without foreknowledge, or has somebody really completed it ironman on their first try?

You're saying that as if first playthroughs should always be ironman or it's invalid. Deaths in combat are inevitable when you haven't mastered the system and/or when you chanced upon bad rolls, and some times you might even die due to choosing either obviously bad options or options your char not good enough to choose. The difference is whether or not it's because you're having certain expectation that the game would just be lenient in allowing you to progress on your own whims or because the game is badly designed. I won't deny that AoD in particular has some stuff it could've better designed, like Etiquette having practically very minor presence throughout the game even when playing a Praetor, or Thief questline somehow played out more like an Assassin's from midgame onward. But most of the time people just need to git gud and accept they can't use a hybrid char to steamroll encounters as well as a properly build and developed fighters, or smooth talk and big brain their way through the game as well as properly made talker.

I'm not saying that it should be easy like that.

Rather it's what a lot of fanboys and devs are saying, that if you just start the game with a sensible build, you don't need to metagame or save/load to find out skill check thresholds. When in reality that's the meat of the gameplay, not mastering a gameplay system so much as learning and memorizing the ins and outs of the world, to know what you can do when. The actual experience of playing AoD is not of rolling a specific type of character and seeing what he can do, but rather of mapping out the gameworld to learn what kind of character can do what, and then executing that. Which is still fun in its own right.

Getting good at the combat system is one thing, though that too is for a big part just memorizing the different encounters.

 

[Black Angel]

Rather it's what a lot of fanboys and devs are saying, that if you just start the game with a sensible build, you don't need to metagame or save/load to find out skill check thresholds. When in reality that's the meat of the gameplay, not mastering a gameplay system so much as learning and memorizing the ins and outs of the world, to know what you can do when. The actual experience of playing AoD is not of rolling a specific type of character and seeing what he can do, but rather of mapping out the gameworld to learn what kind of character can do what, and then executing that. Which is still fun in its own right.

Getting good at the combat system is one thing, though that too is for a big part just memorizing the different encounters.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Another example of awesome writing in this game. I enter Ganezzar and I don't like the thing that's going on there. So, I walk around, killing some fanatics and telling others to go fuck themselves. I rescue Elias, start Nobless Oblige quest. Next goal - to go check on trader and help him with his problems. I expect another trash-fight, but encounter goes on differently. Enters Claudia - and her description is example of very decent writing, with lines like "she looks like someone who never had it easy in her life". Dialogue starts: she's not pleading, she's not trying to convince you - her people are starving, counting on her and she had a thing to do. You got to kill her or just walk away. I need to kill her, so I could work with good man Mitiades once again. Again, I expect short trash-fight, but she doesn't resist - she stands still and accepts her death while other guy drops his pointy stick and runs away.
Yes, it's small and completely optional quest, easy to miss (I missed it the first time). But this encounter really makes you feel like your character is a real cold-blooded murderer. I kinda felt bad after killing her, and I can't remember too much similar situations in other RPGs. Despite having few lines of introduction and few lines of dialogue Claudia feels like a fleshed-out character, with her own agenda. And it's not that you can pick up the safe side in this quest. Most games have clean distinction between good and bad guys: like the first quest in Arcanum, where you can side up with priest or bandits - choice is obvious, depending on who you want to play, bastard or noble person. Here sides are muddy: traders have their rights, but they greedy and don't care about impoverished people. Fanatics had people to provide too, but their methods are quite unsound. So many games tried to implement such gray morale and failed miserable, while AoD has it even in such small quests.

 

[GarfunkeL]

GarfunkeL might as well give it up. There's no reading comprehension to be found here.

Ain't that the truth. Some of these guys are frothing at the mouth as if AoD gave them rabies. Not even going to bother responding to them.

I thought you were making the argument that I'm against. Did I misunderstand you? I of course agree that metagame knowledge is hugely useful. I just think its being specifically required for a hybrid playthrough is completely by design, and doesn't automatically relegate the game to being unplayable/a chore by default. The game does not therefore require metagame knowledge.

Again, the argument was that AoD is a game that requires no metagaming whatsoever. It's been twisted over the last 3 pages because retards going to retard, but it seems that we are roughly in agreement - the separation is in the details. And I'm fine with that since pleasure/enjoyment is a subjective thing. The only main separation of opinion is whether AoD requires metagaming or not, and I guess we will never agree there. You seem to think that having to restart, possibly multiple times, doesn't mean metagaming is needed, whereas I would argue that that certainly means metagaming is necessary.

 

[Ol' Willy]

You seem to think that having to restart, possibly multiple times, doesn't mean metagaming is needed, whereas I would argue that that certainly means metagaming is necessary.

Just finished my second playthrough. While I missed all pre-war locations on my first run, on second I was able to visit and explore them all, except for Abyss and Saross (this two are gated by the statchecks). Basically, requirement is to invest in lore and crafting, and have all artefacts on you all the time. This became evident to me during my first playthrough, without ten restarts.

So, it's rather easy to create a character that will be proficient enough in killing (my second killcount - 216) and will be able to visit most of the game locations and quests. To do so I rolled as merc with advised stats, tagged lore and crafting. Fights were very easy, aside from couple of challenging encounters. Was able to kill Agathoth just by flailing axe at his arms. I can't call this "heavy metagaming prone": merc' stats are advised to you by the devs, and lore/crafting requirement takes one playthrough to figure out.

 

[GarfunkeL]

But you had no way of knowing that except for playing the game multiple times. So yes, meta-gaming needed.

AGAIN, because so many of you fucking retards are clueless:

whether a game requires metagaming or not is not a GOOD or BAD thing. It's all about development design.

 

[urmom]

I can't remember how I killed Agathoth, but I think it involved lots of save scumming.

 

[Black Angel]

But you had no way of knowing that except for playing the game multiple times. So yes, meta-gaming needed.

Turns out every single replayable games in existence can't be replayed without metagaming *at all*

Gaming is cancelled, it's short but good to know you guys