Age of Decadence Reviews

[Vault Dweller]

^ Pretty much. In Teron most checks are 3-4. Considering that you can start the game with 3-4 in key skills and raise them to 6, the only reason one would need to metagame is to play a fighter/mage/thief (everyone's favourite character class). The faction quests' checks are always 2-3 ranks lower of where your character's skills would be if you put all your points into 2-3 skills, meaning you can easily pass the checks if you play consistently AND develop supportive skills as well (meaning you aren't expected to play the game with 2-3 skills).

 

[GarfunkeL]

I don't know how badly you can misread what we wrote Kalarion or if that's just the line you memorized back then and you keep repeating it endlessly. Because nobody is talking about joining "all ten guilds and become the Supreme Grandmaster Archmage Assassin Knight in one playthrough" or "I get to do what I want, when I want, without having to think about the character I created", which are lovely strawman arguments in the first place.

It's entirely possible to make a character in AoD that fails miserably in Teron. It's entirely possible to make a character that gets stuck later in the game through poor resource management, poor character building, and poor RNG (when it comes to combat). For example, until you get really good equipment, almost every fight has the possibility of killing you and you usually don't get to run away. Similarly, at some places you can only visit once and if you don't meet certain skill requirements, you're locked out of certain outcomes. You cannot know these things unless you metagame the game. Or you're someone obsessed with AoD to the point that you play through every route multiple times but then that's metagame knowledge of your own, sort of.

Again, that's not a GOOD thing or a BAD thing. It's just a THING. It's a design style just like the way it's possible to do absolutely everything with a single character in Skyrim is its polar opposite. The EXECUTION of that style can be poorly or well done but the style itself is just that. And for the AoD-style of gameplay design, metagaming is hugely useful. It's helpful in Fallout 1&2 to know where you're getting free skill-ups and free equipment, so you can grab those first just like it helps in Baldur's Gate to know where the ability increasing tomes and the best gear is. But the games are executed in such a manner that they are forgiving to the player who doesn't know it. Can you play AoD blind? Sure you can. Does metagaming help? Most definitely.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

It's entirely possible to make a character in AoD that fails miserably in Teron. It's entirely possible to make a character that gets stuck later in the game through poor resource management, poor character building, and poor RNG (when it comes to combat). For example, until you get really good equipment, almost every fight has the possibility of killing you and you usually don't get to run away. Similarly, at some places you can only visit once and if you don't meet certain skill requirements, you're locked out of certain outcomes. You cannot know these things unless you metagame the game. Or you're someone obsessed with AoD to the point that you play through every route multiple times but then that's metagame knowledge of your own, sort of.

Again, that's not a GOOD thing or a BAD thing. It's just a THING.

How is not a good thing that if you suck at the game you can lose.

 

[Butter]

There's more than one way to play well, and building a good character is part of that. Compare to something like Deus Ex, where there's always more than one way through, and it allows you to get away with really fucked builds because that's only part of the equation.

 

[Tigranes]

I finally got around to playing this for a bit tonight. It's been in my Steam library for ages. I got stuck almost immediately and rage quit for the night. I'll go back to it I just.. can't right now. The combat tutorial was easy, no problems there. The tutorial messages told me to focus on combat as a new player and not try to split myself between combat and dialogue. So I did. I went with the mercenary class and basically just stuck with what the game suggested I use: axe and block. Stuck with the suggested stats because I'm a noob, except took 1 less point of INT to buff STR to 9. Gear is heavy armor, round shield, 1h axe.

Decided not to fight the assassin. Looted the body of the dude I was guarding, half expecting to be blamed for the murder for doing that. I wasn't. Agree to sell the shit to the thieves guild. On the way back fight the thugs. Easy win. Hell yeah. Go to a loremaster to check out the map. Pay him 50 gold, fine. He want another 100 for a magic item and I think he's scamming me so I say I don't have it. He wants me to hit a dude for 50 gold instead. Too shady for me, I take the dude to the noble guy instead. Guards won't let me in unless I do a quest for them. No CHA so no choice. 2 options: Take the mine or rescue the noble from the bandits.

Try taking the mine first. Ask where they get their supplies. First merchant I meet tells me (I think I bribed them). Find the guy. He won't agree to poison the wine for me so I kill him and try to do it myself. No CHA so they see through my disguise right away. Run like a bitch. Save, put my armor back on and try to fight them. Not a chance of that working, didn't really think there was. Go back to town to see if I can recruit some followers or something. Kill a gang of thugs easily. Get cocky, decide to try the bandits.

Go talk to them. They want 1000g. Tell the noble's guard. No way, fail persuasion and he wants me to kill them. Go back and attack them because I literally can't sneak or convince anyone to cut me a fucking break with anything so what other option is there? Get owned. A few times. Quit for the night and bitch on the Codex.

What should I do? Do I need to just restart and make a more balanced character after all? I mean the game told me that as a noob I should just put everything into combat, but that actually seems to be a pretty terrible idea. I mean all of the fights I've encountered so far have been optional, but they have not all been winnable so now I have no idea how to progress. It actually seems like a more balanced dude would be more playable, in spite of these instructions, because the winnable fights seem pretty easy so far and a character half as strong as mine could probably take them, but I don't think I could beat the unwinnable ones with a dude twice as strong. Are the tutorial messages trolling?

Broadly speaking, you're doing fine, and you're approaching it with the right mindset.

There are quite a few things to do in Teron that can yield XP/gold to make the difference, many of which aren't immediately apparent. I had to comb the town multiple times in my first playthrough only to find I had missed several such encounters, combat or otherwise. And a single level up into a combat skill can make a big difference in your capabilities. The raiders and the mine are supposed to be the more difficult, major combat encounters.

(It's been too long for me to remember them off the top of my head. But there's a merchant who wants your attention near the market, there's some people to talk to at the gate, there's a couple of nondescript houses, there's a pickpocket attempt, and so on.)

Which battles are easy/hard/unwinnable depends massively not only on your player skill but your build - AOD is a game where there are very large swings on that so one build finds X fight much easier than Y, and vice versa. Going hybrid won't make things easier, probably.

Single weapon skill, and then one of block or dodge, is usually the textbook way to go, so you always know what you can rely on in terms of attack and defence, and you also know which enemies are most dangerous for you. Experimenting with different weapon subtypes within your proficiency to see what combination of THC / crit / AP / dmg you like can make a big difference. Again, AOD is a game where changing from just one axe to another or starting combat in a different square can make a huge difference.

If there are particular fights you think is winnable but you're getting stuck you can always report details here for suggestions.

 

[GarfunkeL]

How is not a good thing that if you suck at the game you can lose.

That's not the argument. The argument was that AoD needs no metagaming, that you can play it blind and be successful and enjoy it. Yeah maybe if you're a masochist like the dude who did those Ironman runs on Youtube that Black Angel linked. AoD rewards metagaming. Just look above what Tigranes posted. My first experience of AoD was exactly same as MegaRhettButler - and I had gone through the combat demo, including the optional fight, with both a spear+block and axe+dodge builds. Yet my spear+block IG dude got his ass handed to him in Teron. You can't know how many points in STR is enough for a combat build, for one example, and unless you know the game development you wouldn't have any idea that there's power armour waiting for you near the end. I did enjoy playing AoD and it's a great game but I enjoyed it a lot more after reading character build guides and such.

 

[Black Angel]

That's not the argument. The argument was that AoD needs no metagaming, that you can play it blind and be successful and enjoy it. Yeah maybe if you're a masochist like the dude who did those Ironman runs on Youtube that Black Angel linked. AoD rewards metagaming.

Git fucking gud, scrublord.

Also, I didn't know Eyestabber is a masochist.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

How is not a good thing that if you suck at the game you can lose.

That's not the argument. The argument was that AoD needs no metagaming, that you can play it blind and be successful and enjoy it. Yeah maybe if you're a masochist like the dude who did those Ironman runs on Youtube that Black Angel linked. AoD rewards metagaming. Just look above what Tigranes posted. My first experience of AoD was exactly same as MegaRhettButler - and I had gone through the combat demo, including the optional fight, with both a spear+block and axe+dodge builds. Yet my spear+block IG dude got his ass handed to him in Teron. You can't know how many points in STR is enough for a combat build, for one example, and unless you know the game development you wouldn't have any idea that there's power armour waiting for you near the end. I did enjoy playing AoD and it's a great game but I enjoyed it a lot more after reading character build guides and such.

Still I fail to see how having high STR to be good at melee combat is meta gaming or that there are hard fights in the game. The only thing where you can really meta game is for saving skill points, but that plays more to the min-maxing nature of the player and not been OK with failing quests or missing some optional content.

 

[thesecret1]

The argument was that AoD needs no metagaming, that you can play it blind and be successful and enjoy it. Yeah maybe if you're a masochist

I made my first several playthroughs of AoD blind and had a good time. It's not really difficult or anything, you just mustn't get your panties in a twist over not being able to visit some locations or not being to solve some of the game's mysteries. If you want to get all the content in one go, then yeah, you gotta metagame – that shit was never meant to be easy.

Yet my spear+block IG dude got his ass handed to him in Teron. You can't know how many points in STR is enough for a combat build

If your combat build is getting raped in Teron, then it means your build is shit and it's time to restart and try again. I also discarded my first two builds in Teron when I first started out with the game. Your complaint at this point is that not every build is viable, but that's one of the core tentets of the whole game. If you cannot get over it, don't play it.

and unless you know the game development you wouldn't have any idea that there's power armour waiting for you near the end.

The power armor is kinda shit though. I never had a reason to use it; it's drawbacks were just too high, even when fully powered. Anyway, that's besides the point – just how is knowing about the power armor so necessary that one cannot enjoy the game without it?

I enjoyed it a lot more after reading character build guides and such.

Well, good on you, I guess? I enjoyed it far more playing blind and seeing whether I'll manage to make this build work and what sort of stuff I'll encounter this time around. Only much later, when I was hunting for stuff I've missed over several playthroughs did I look up stat requirements for some of the things I didn't know how to get. But to say metagaming is necessary to play the game is just a plain lie. Metagaming is necessary if you're doing a completionist kind of run and want to see every last bit the game has to offer.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Still I fail to see how having high STR to be good at melee combat is meta gaming or that there are hard fights in the game. The only thing where you can really meta game is for saving skill points, but that plays more to the min-maxing nature of the player and not been OK with failing quests or missing some optional content.

You're still going strong with the strawmen dude. Stop taking everything as a personal attack. I clearly wrote: "how many points in STR is enough" not "high STR is good". You're not a braindead shitposter. My point was and is that with metagaming knowledge, you know exactly how many points to put into STR so that you can semi-reliably handle all the fights in the game, allowing you to put more points into other stats. Yeah obviously it's min-maxing, again that's not the point. And sure, if you have time and interest to play through AoD seven times, good for you. Not everybody does. Again, I'm not advocating that it should be possible to do/see everything in one playthrough. That's not how AoD was designed. But being able to see almost everything in 3 playthroughs instead of 6 is also a massive difference.

I made my first several playthroughs of AoD blind and had a good time. It's not really difficult or anything, you just mustn't get your panties in a twist over not being able to visit some locations or not being to solve some of the game's mysteries. If you want to get all the content in one go, then yeah, you gotta metagame – that shit was never meant to be easy.

Good on you. Next time, try not to generalize your personal experience as a universal truth. There are plenty of comments here and on Steam and on other forums how that's certainly not the experience of a lot of players. Not to mention that you probably played the combat demo and you followed the game development, both of which gave you an advantage compared to someone really playing blind.

If your combat build is getting raped in Teron, then it means your build is shit and it's time to restart and try again. I also discarded my first two builds in Teron when I first started out with the game. Your complaint at this point is that not every build is viable, but that's one of the core tentets of the whole game. If you cannot get over it, don't play it.

Somehow you managed to turn my objective statement that AoD follows a certain design philosophy into a value judgement that it's shit and I shouldn't play it, despite me saying repeatedly that it ISN'T a value judgement and that I have completed the game and even enjoyed it. But fuck me, better to keep stuffing that strawman. You know it is possible to have a discussion without exaggerating and going hyperbolic with everything?

The power armor is kinda shit though. I never had a reason to use it; it's drawbacks were just too high, even when fully powered. Anyway, that's besides the point – just how is knowing about the power armor so necessary that one cannot enjoy the game without it?

What are you smoking? The power armor is awesome when fully powered. And it gives you stat increases like in Fallout.

Well, good on you, I guess? I enjoyed it far more playing blind and seeing whether I'll manage to make this build work and what sort of stuff I'll encounter this time around. Only much later, when I was hunting for stuff I've missed over several playthroughs did I look up stat requirements for some of the things I didn't know how to get. But to say metagaming is necessary to play the game is just a plain lie. Metagaming is necessary if you're doing a completionist kind of run and want to see every last bit the game has to offer.

You're contradicting yourself here. You're saying that metagaming isn't necessary, yet you yourself admitted that you restarted the game 3 times just for Teron. And now you're being all hyperbolic again like Kalarion was being earlier. I don't know if you guys are autistic or what, thinking that this is a purely binary matter of 1/0 or YES/NO. It isn't.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

I really enjoyed the game and keep getting back to it every once in a while.
Colony ship is a D1 purchase and i sure hope the Inquisition game comes next

 

[thesecret1]

Good on you. Next time, try not to generalize your personal experience as a universal truth.

Seriously? You try to tell me off like this after running wild with genralizations about how only a masochist would make a blind playthrough? A lot of people went and played AoD blind without metagaming and had a good time.

Not to mention that you probably played the combat demo and you followed the game development, both of which gave you an advantage compared to someone really playing blind.

I didn't, though. Hell, I wasn't even on the Codex back then, much less knew who VD is or that he was making a game.

Somehow you managed to turn my objective statement that AoD follows a certain design philosophy into a value judgement that it's shit and I shouldn't play it, despite me saying repeatedly that it ISN'T a value judgement and that I have completed the game and even enjoyed it. But fuck me, better to keep stuffing that strawman. You know it is possible to have a discussion without exaggerating and going hyperbolic with everything?

It's not a strawman, though. Hell, most of the things you call a strawman aren't actually strawmen. I pointed out that if "needing to know how many points in STR is enough" necessiates metagaming, then any game that doesn't let every build pass, by that logic, requires metagaming. First of all, that's ridiculous, second of all, not letting every build pass is one of the core tenets of the game. If one cannot get over that, then it's not the game for him.

What are you smoking? The power armor is awesome when fully powered. And it gives you stat increases like in Fallout.

Takes helmet slot and shield slot, which had always been a deal breaker for me. I just found better uses for the power tubes than the power armor. Again, whether you know or not know about the power armor has no bearing over whether you can enjoy the game or not.

You're contradicting yourself here. You're saying that metagaming isn't necessary, yet you yourself admitted that you restarted the game 3 times just for Teron.

How am I contradicting myself? You think that the player seeing he built his character like shit, and thus deciding to start again, is metagaming?

 

[Horvatii]

Guys, I just started playing in Teron and I am mercenary siding with the IG. I have picked axe and shield as my weapons.
I have some skillpoints. What should I increase? Should I increase axe? Or perhaps should I increase shield? Or maybe axe?
Any metagaming protips?

 

[Black Angel]

snip

Please. Just because your weak ass pussy can't git gud without metagaming, doesn't mean anybody who did are masochists.

 

[jackofshadows]

My point was and is that with metagaming knowledge, you know exactly how many points to put into STR so that you can semi-reliably handle all the fights in the game, allowing you to put more points into other stats. Yeah obviously it's min-maxing, again that's not the point. And sure, if you have time and interest to play through AoD seven times, good for you. Not everybody does. Again, I'm not advocating that it should be possible to do/see everything in one playthrough. That's not how AoD was designed. But being able to see almost everything in 3 playthroughs instead of 6 is also a massive difference.

You sound like 'normie' who doesn't have enough time to play games yet you sit and play through 'turn-based, hardcore role-playing game' (store's description) and then come here to complain about that the game doesn't bend to you and allow to beat it and see everything (muh content) with any few builds you want, really? Maybe you should play some AssCreed instead?

You're saying that metagaming isn't necessary, yet you yourself admitted that you restarted the game 3 times just for Teron.

Realizing that your build sucks is a metagaming now? I'd say metagaming is looking for some guide online to distribute stats beforehand like you did but to conclude that the game encourage it?

 

[Fenix]

Any metagaming protips?

Dunno, I usually tend to increase defensive skills over offensive, but! it could be more beneficial to do contrary - as youwill eliminate threat faster, and will take potantially less blows.

 

[Ninjerk]

GarfunkeL might as well give it up. There's no reading comprehension to be found here.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

The argument was that AoD needs no metagaming, that you can play it blind and be successful and enjoy it. Yeah maybe if you're a masochist

This is bullshit. The same bullshit over and over again. Again. And again. Your experience does not make fact. It's your experience. You. Not the fucking game. You. I'm no Einstein but I enjoyed it just fine playing a hybrid on my first playthrough, where is my nobel prize, right? Fuck off.

 

[Kalarion]

I don't know how badly you can misread what we wrote Kalarion or if that's just the line you memorized back then and you keep repeating it endlessly. Because nobody is talking about joining "all ten guilds and become the Supreme Grandmaster Archmage Assassin Knight in one playthrough" or "I get to do what I want, when I want, without having to think about the character I created", which are lovely strawman arguments in the first place.

It's entirely possible to make a character in AoD that fails miserably in Teron. It's entirely possible to make a character that gets stuck later in the game through poor resource management, poor character building, and poor RNG (when it comes to combat). For example, until you get really good equipment, almost every fight has the possibility of killing you and you usually don't get to run away. Similarly, at some places you can only visit once and if you don't meet certain skill requirements, you're locked out of certain outcomes. You cannot know these things unless you metagame the game. Or you're someone obsessed with AoD to the point that you play through every route multiple times but then that's metagame knowledge of your own, sort of.

Again, that's not a GOOD thing or a BAD thing. It's just a THING. It's a design style just like the way it's possible to do absolutely everything with a single character in Skyrim is its polar opposite. The EXECUTION of that style can be poorly or well done but the style itself is just that. And for the AoD-style of gameplay design, metagaming is hugely useful. It's helpful in Fallout 1&2 to know where you're getting free skill-ups and free equipment, so you can grab those first just like it helps in Baldur's Gate to know where the ability increasing tomes and the best gear is. But the games are executed in such a manner that they are forgiving to the player who doesn't know it. Can you play AoD blind? Sure you can. Does metagaming help? Most definitely.

I didn't "read a line and memorize it back then", I played the game. I've done one full playthrough, as a loremaster/talker. You can see my impressions earlier in the thread if you care to search. My intention with the GM archmage etc was to exaggerate for effect, not to say that's exactly the point you were making. I thought it would be obvious from the hyperbole employed, but text and all that I suppose.

Of course it's entirely possible to have the bad things listed above happen to you. It's a game where you get to make your own choices and it doesn't blare warnings if you're doing something wrong, the possibility of failure due to bad previous choices sort of has to be part of it. What the game doesn't do is put you in a situation where character-consistent play (that is, choosing a set of strengths for your character and then sticking to them, with possibly minor dips at points if you have sp to spare) drops you into a dead end. Therefore, it doesn't require metagaming, either to win or to experience content. For winning, multiple builds/playthrough experiences in this very thread should suffice to prove my point. You can be a talker, you can be a stealther, you can be a fighter, etc. All of them can go through an entire gameplay path, to endgame, and "win", as long as the character you create is built consistently throughout the game. For content, the only requirement is that you have to play it multiple times to experience all content; play as a loremaster (me) and experience that path, then as a fighter etc. If you're really good at the game (IE, you can metagame it well with knowledge of where surplus sp/good gear/what the best crafting skills/breakpoints etc), you can experience multiple paths' content in one playthrough. But tackling multiple paths at once is the only situation where metagame knowledge is required in order to progress.

I agree entirely with your final paragraph. It makes me think we're talking past each other, or that there's some unexplained, fundamental disagreement about the basis of the argument that I don't understand. What I'm arguing is: metagame knowledge is not required in order to win the game. It is designed to allow a full playthrough on the basis of taking initial character development choices seriously, by continuously building on the strengths decided on at creation (talker, fighter, thief, alchemist, etc). What I'm arguing against is: metagame knowledge is required in order to win the game. In order to complete a full playthrough, players are required to have understanding of game mechanics/rewards etc that they could not conceivably attain by simply playing within Vault Dweller 's stated design framework.

I thought you were making the argument that I'm against. Did I misunderstand you?

I of course agree that metagame knowledge is hugely useful. I just think its being specifically required for a hybrid playthrough is completely by design, and doesn't automatically relegate the game to being unplayable/a chore by default. The game does not therefore require metagame knowledge.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Ok guys, I haven't played AoD and I think that I should finally do it. I like metagaming a lot, but this time, as experiment, I will go in blindly. We will see what happens

 

[jackofshadows]

Ok guys, I haven't played AoD and I think that I should finally do it. I like metagaming a lot, but this time, as experiment, I will go in blindly. We will see what happens

Just... lube your asshole first, alright?

 

[Black Angel]

Ok guys, I haven't played AoD and I think that I should finally do it. I like metagaming a lot, but this time, as experiment, I will go in blindly. We will see what happens

Just... lube your asshole first, alright?

This. Don't worry, 7 playthroughs later YOU shall be the one doing the penetrating.

 

[CoronerZg]

Just finished another playthrough after a few years of absence and damn this game has some amazing lore. This time I was playing dialogue/lore heavy character and it was a blast. Also combat and alchemy improvements from DR are great! Btw, is the lore based on some book or is it pure fiction written by Vince and the team?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Pure fiction.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Well, this game is skillcheck porn. Skillchecks and statchecks everywhere. Double skillchecks. Skillchecks on top of skillchecks. Some real dedication to the principle here.

And it literally oozes Fallout influence. Stats that almost comprise SPECIAL (without luck stat though, which I usually dump), skills, inventory, fighting system. Even doorfighting works as good as in Fallout.

But despite all this good things it didn't took me long to stuck. Went with Daggers-Shield-Persuasion, thinking about Small Guns-Speech scheme that worked so well in Fallout. I reach Maadoran and I can't progress anymore. I either don't have stats/skills, or get myself gutted in combat. So, first playthrough goes out in the window. Gonna try second time, this time less fight oriented character.

Meanwhile, temptation to minmax the hell out of the game grows. A faint voice in the back of my head: "Just google what useless skills are! Dump stats! Better weapons!". Gonna keep it away though