Game News Age of Decadence September Update

[EG]

The "sad" thing is that, yeah, it is exactly that. Or do you really think the interesting part is to end the conversation, then click on the door. Click on another door. Click the ground to the edge of the map. Wait for loading. Click on the floor until you reach the other door. Enter the house. Clicking into the room. Clicking the character. Continue dialogue.

So interesting and deep.

It really is.

I'm glad to have found a kindred spirit.

 

[Absinthe]

True, but here we are talking about the illusion of going "off the beaten path", "carving your way"; you are presented with a dozen of choices, yet you choose another one, "your own choice!". RAPTURE!

It's as I placed you on a room with two doors, and you instead dig a hole on the floor to get out. Obviously, I knew you had a shovel and prepared for that, but the simple fact that I didn't gave you the shovel like a retard or said "the floor is weak here" makes you think you're besting me and "breaking" the game.

Perhaps it's not a illusion of choice nor freedom, but of breakthrough.

Tell me Felipepepe, does it get hard to talk with your mouth full of VD's cock?

It's not that the player gets off on thinking they've bested the game designer and "broken" the game. It's that the player enjoys this strange and totally unfamiliar thing called thinking for themselves.

Some people actually want to play the game, not just tp around while reading disjointed hack novels.

Next you'll complain all the exploration is banalshitboring if you don't run into a sidequest. I never understood these complaints about teleportation. It's a useful timesaver and it makes the fact that Teron is a dull fucking place to walk around less of a problem.

The problem with VD is - if he had a kid and they went to a gamestore where the kid would point out a cool jigsaw puzzle he'd really like to do, VD would walk next door to the artstore for a poster of the same painting and give that to the kid instead. He'd assure the kid that the poster makes a better game 'cause the end-result is the exact same, only with the boring parts skipped. He assures the kid that the puzzle at best only provided the illusion of freedom in the first place (after all, all the pieces only have one specific place to fit in) and the only real choice was which painting to get. That's the real game to VD.



The reason why VD's text adventures still work with this design is because VD has good taste overall with his writing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The problem with VD is - if he had a kid and they went to a gamestore where the kid would point out a cool jigsaw puzzle he'd really like to do...

If only RPGs were jigsaw puzzles, my friend. If only...

In most cases, the solutions are either painfully obvious and you're clearly told what to do. For every hidden "weak wall that needs some dynamite"-like setup, there are hundreds of "go talk to X across the map and report back" tasks. These tasks are necessary, if quests involve several people, but they are hardly the equivalent of jigsaw puzzles. They are a fucking filler - boring walks interrupted by 2-4 loading screes and who doesn't like those?

Let's take a look at the Fallout 2's Den:

- collect money from Fred - talk to Becky, then run around looking for Fred, then return to Becky, who isn't done yet. Now she wants a book!
- get the book from Derek - talk to Becky, talk to Derek, run around looking for the book, then return to Becky
- Curious Laura wants to know what's guarded in the church - run to the other map, find out, run back to find out what Laura wants next
- Laura wants permission to attack the other gang - run to the other map, ask Metzer, run back to find out what Laura wants next - god forbid she'll tell everything all at once
- Laura wants to find out the weakness - another trek across the map and back. I love playing RPGs! I crossed the map 6 times already just for Laura and have a feeling we aren't done yet.
- Laura wants your help again! Go fuck yourself, Laura.
- Deliver a meal to Smithy from Mom. Yes, across the map. This is why I play RPGs!
- Smithy wants a car part - basically, it's a mental note that once you find a special inventory item that you can get in a certain place and nowhere else, take it to Smithy. Fucking jigsaw puzzles, how do they work?
- Sabotage Becky's stall (finally, a semi interesting quest, but you're still told what to do and in what sequence, so no puzzle there. Oh well...
- Free Vic - the best quest of the Den. Probably the only decent quest, but sadly a jigsaw puzzle it aint. Either give him his radio (no, you can't give him a generic radio, gotta be his) and pay Metzer or kill them all, which is a pretty good fight.
- Return Anna's locket - let's pretend it didn't happen.

 

[tuluse]

If you're a woman you can also sleep with Metzer for a discount. Might also need high enough charisma (I always play high charisma characters, so just not sure).

 

[suejak]

So in AoD, you would take exploration quests like "find Fred," "find Derek," and "figure out what's inside the church," and you'd just ellipses out the searching part?

I remember I had trouble with some quests in the Den until I decided to shoot the guy who runs in the pickpocket gang. I got pretty well-geared for a short while thanks to that.

 

[laclongquan]

Well, you can also sleep with Mertzger to rescue Vic for free.

Anyway, I gotta say the choices are good thing. Hell, savescumming is a good thing too. Normally I calculated and compared the results (xp+loots) of different outcomes before I choose. Fuck roleplay! If dialog give more money+xp, I choose that. IF straight up assault net you more loot, I choose that too. Sometimes I even reload to choose other options just to see what will happen.

 

[suejak]

Also, isn't it interesting how you would miss both the children pickpockets AND being jumped by gangs in the Den if you weren't allowed to wander?

I actually think walking around Fallout towns was one of my favourite parts of the game. There was so much to stumble across and so many random things to do.

 

[Tigranes]

The "sad" thing is that, yeah, it is exactly that. Or do you really think the interesting part is to end the conversation, then click on the door. Click on another door. Click the ground to the edge of the map. Wait for loading. Click on the floor until you reach the other door. Enter the house. Clicking into the room. Clicking the character. Continue dialogue.

So interesting and deep.

It really is.

I'm glad to have found a kindred spirit.

Pffft. That's what every single fucking game is like. In fact, that's what life is like, too.

This discussion would be less interminable if people were able to specify what exactly is the problem with AoD's teleporting. I found it discomforting/unsatisfying in my own demo plays, but it's hard to figure out why. At least a part of it is just being torn out of comfortable ways of doing things, feeling like I'm missing bits of the game even when I spent a long time cursing all the walking in most RPGs I played. In fact, a lot of it comes down to feeling like everything is over too quickly, more than actually missing anything substantial.

The problem is that such reasons aren't necessarily bad or invalid reasons. The whole point of a game is an autonomous set of rules that impress their own importance upon you - if you can't be made to take those rules at least half-seriously then it's hard to have fun. There's a reason some players enjoy Bioware dialogue, others are seasoned enough to figure out how every dialogue contains so many false choices and can't run with it; or how the very existence of RMAH pisses people off even if they don't use it and they play alone.

I honestly think it's kind of pointless to be so dogmatic about this, and it's just a question of balance and pacing, providing enough non-teleport spaces as breathers. And VD did so to a degree after the first demo, I recall.

 

[St. Toxic]

I actually think walking around Fallout towns was one of my favourite parts of the game. There was so much to stumble across and so many random things to do.

Exactly. If designed correctly, with various shops and interesting locales, and naturally a few funky sidequests or interesting sights thrown around them, these plot-necessary "Walk from A to B" quests merely enable you to get a good view of the place you're in, and earn some valuable experience while doing so. It's a difficult mix, but that's what truly makes "scripted" roleplaying enjoyable, as it tries to simulate what could otherwise be a more dynamic story.

I mean, seriously, if that's not the focus of the game, you either have combat or you have an interactive book, but not really an "rpg".

Fortunately, they are under no obligation to play it. Crisis averted.

Oh, come on, I was only joking. Of course I'm under obligation to play it. Even pay a trifle. We all are.

 

[EG]

There's little wrong with it.

It's just the ideal talking point, for some reason -- like the nature of the RPG or some other bullshit we'll never be able to quantify.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also, isn't it interesting how you would miss both the children pickpockets AND being jumped by gangs in the Den if you weren't allowed to wander?

Are you saying you are not allowed to wander in AoD? Or you need a shitty fedex quest to do so and without such quests, you're lost and don't know where to go?

 

[St. Toxic]

There's little wrong with it.

It's just the ideal talking point, for some reason -- like the nature of the RPG or some other bullshit we'll never be able to quantify.

I guess you're right. Nothing ever catches the essence. Torment did that for me, and Fallout, and Arcanum.

 

[suejak]

Also, isn't it interesting how you would miss both the children pickpockets AND being jumped by gangs in the Den if you weren't allowed to wander?

Are you saying you are not allowed to wander in AoD? Or you need a shitty fedex quest to do so and without such quests, you're lost and don't know where to go?

Nope, I'm merely taking your ideas to their logical extreme. I don't even get why you allow any wandering at all.

I think quests provide more motivated wandering. In your game, I felt like I was wandering (when I was finally allowed, whew) merely for the sake of wandering. When you're searching for someone or something, then it doesn't feel like you're just stumbling around hoping for a quest or scripted event.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think quests provide more motivated wandering. In your game, I felt like I was wandering (when I was finally allowed, whew) merely for the sake of wandering.

You didn't feel like you were making your own story?

 

[Gozma]

Whenever there is a chance to do something like a skill check, just put up the cost in character points it would take to bump the skill to the level you need to succeed.

Like:
[Merchant - 10] Gimme that watermelon bikini, I give one 1 drachma-thaler and not a pfennig more

And if you pick it the points are auto-allocated. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ALLOCATE SKILL POINTS (besides combat or I guess stuff like crafting... I just mean skill check skills like "Science" in Fallout, that kinda shit)

And show graphically when you are overshooting, like if you are 50 points over show it

It is a bit silly and mechanical but so are rote stat checks. If you can't afford what it would take to bump the stat, don't show the option at all - this will prevent people that have no points in [Sense Sexuality] from knowing that they could have pointed out that the final boss only has issues because he is a repressed furry

Skill Point Manager 2013

That is not even satire either, seriously you should do that VD. The interesting choice with skill checks is decideing how much you are willing to pay for them because there is no gameplay in the actual resolution of the "check" (as there is with combat, or stuff that is one step away from actual combat like crafting). Without divulging the information to the player the choice is both stupid and irritating, so people save scum to see the threshold. I can see how it would mess up a lot of stuff like fake checks (e.g. if you are trying to lie to someone that has concrete information to the contrary, of which you are unaware) but I mean I think it's the best way to unfuck straight up skill check gameplay to the greatest extent and prevents people doing shit like overbuying 100 points of skill that they can't use for 2/3 of the game or something

 

[tuluse]

Also, isn't it interesting how you would miss both the children pickpockets AND being jumped by gangs in the Den if you weren't allowed to wander?

Are you saying you are not allowed to wander in AoD? Or you need a shitty fedex quest to do so and without such quests, you're lost and don't know where to go?

The latter is partially true. The fedex quests point out all the important things for you in Fallout. This lets them design their towns with plenty of fluff, so it feels more like a real living breathing town, while letting players concentrate on the important parts.

AoD could probably do with more fluff.

 

[felipepepe]

It's not that the player gets off on thinking they've bested the game designer and "broken" the game. It's that the player enjoys this strange and totally unfamiliar thing called thinking for themselves.

Had you not failed the reading skill check, you would see I was pointing out exactly that to VD, that people actually feel as they are "thinking for thenselves" just because they chose a path that was a bit less obvious. They really feel special that they manually placed a dynamite on the obviously cracked wall instead of chosing the "place dynamite on cracked wall" dialog option. That and making cock comemnts on the internet.

I would say that is cause by being spoiled by most RPGs, where the "dynamite wall" option ALWAYS wields better results & rewards. Players are not carefully considereing their choices; you know, ACTUAL thinking, they are just used to choose the most rewarding choice, that is always the unusual ones. They are as a monkey pressing the red button to get more food.

VD should have some fun with that, making one quest where the "regular option" (something like "leave it alone") is the best one and all the "use dynamite/sleep with/intimidate" choices end up bad or even killing the player. The butthurt would be glorious.

 

[St. Toxic]

FTL has a ton of those.

 

[felipepepe]

FTL has a ton of those.

Really? Every time I took one of those "blue" options, like "use the cloacking device/laser/mantis crewmenber" it always end up with a good result and nice rewards...

From the tutorial:

"Nearly always" is an improvement already, but you get the idea.

 

[John Yossarian]

It's not that the player gets off on thinking they've bested the game designer and "broken" the game. It's that the player enjoys this strange and totally unfamiliar thing called thinking for themselves.

Just how is it that AoD doesn't allow this? There are plenty of choices you can think of before you see the options for them. Just like in most of those RPGs. And just like in all those games, there are choices you think of that are not offered (difference is, in AoD, it's mostly the retarded choices that are not offered).

 

[St. Toxic]

Really? Every time I took one of those "blue" options, like "use the cloacking device/laser/mantis crewmenber" it always end up with a good result and nice rewards...

I wasn't thinking about the blue options, those things are reliable as far as I know. (Actually, I think I had one that ended with me getting boarded. Maybe the lesser of two evils there.) But you do have encounters that really seem to have no good resolutions, though for the most part non-participation in anything optional tends to be the safe way to go.

 

[suejak]

It's not that the player gets off on thinking they've bested the game designer and "broken" the game. It's that the player enjoys this strange and totally unfamiliar thing called thinking for themselves.

Just how is it that AoD doesn't allow this? There are plenty of choices you can think of before you see the options for them. Just like in most of those RPGs. And just like in all those games, there are choices you think of that are not offered (difference is, in AoD, it's mostly the retarded choices that are not offered).

I dunno, it sounds like you don't get it. It's not rewarding to see an option offered so plainly and just clicking on it.

Ever heard the expression "the journey is the reward"?

 

[Livonya]

Another priceless thread... was bored at work and read the whole thing.

I can't believe anyone cares about the quest teleporting. Walking from point A to point B over and over again is the most annoying thing about RPGs. Sure I like checking out the place the first time. But do I enjoy going from point A to point B over and over and over again? No. Maybe if it burned real world calories rather than real world minutes than I would change my mind.

Seriously, what the fuck!?!?

You can wander around all you want in AoD, just not DURING a quest. Big fucking deal. If you want to pretend you are practicing for the Teron marathon and spend 5 or 6 hours jogging around town then go right ahead. The game doesn't prevent you from being retarded. Knock yourself out. Spend the day playing your "jogging simulation."

I just don't get it. You CAN wander around aimlessly if you want.

I wonder how many weeks of my life I have wasted running from point A to point B so that I could continue the game. Games have way too much of this shit. I think the quest teleporting in AOD is great and welcome more of it in future games at least until the day comes where running in a cRPG actually burns calories and helps me tone my body.

As for the skill checks, I do agree that sometimes the blind skill checks can be annoying, but only when they lead straight to death or failure. I get that if you are a fighter with no skill in traps then you should die if you attempt to disarm a trap, but if you are a thief with thief skills then there needs to be a larger spectrum of failure that doesn't lead to death.

The dialogue trees simply need more depth so that they can support more shades of failure/success depending on your skills.

Even so...

We need more game developers that are willing to put their vision over the complaints of the masses.

I am pretty sure the masses want an endless pile of shit.

It is refreshing to see Vince arguing for his vision rather than just lying, kissing ass, and placating. Even if AOD is shitty in the end I would prefer that they make their game rather than just questing for mediocrity in a quick cash grab like 99% of all game development teams.

Choice and consequence in game design. I love it.

 

[Saduj]

Also, isn't it interesting how you would miss both the children pickpockets AND being jumped by gangs in the Den if you weren't allowed to wander?
.

Being pickpocketed and getting mugged happen twice each in the AoD demo after you figure out that you can wander around the town. Just sayin.....

 

[felipepepe]

Really? Every time I took one of those "blue" options, like "use the cloacking device/laser/mantis crewmenber" it always end up with a good result and nice rewards...

I wasn't thinking about the blue options, those things are reliable as far as I know. (Actually, I think I had one that ended with me getting boarded. Maybe the lesser of two evils there.) But you do have encounters that really seem to have no good resolutions, though for the most part non-participation in anything optional tends to be the safe way to go.

That's the point, if a encounter have no good resolution, it makes you consider your actions, think about what's best. If a blue option appears, you'll probably chose it blindly, because, hey it's blue, so it's good! Skillchecks in most RPGs are like blue options, they're always the best possible course of action.

I.e., if you pass through a cracked wall and plant dynamite on it (manually or throught a skill/item check), you're absolutly sure that something good will come from that; it's a reward for you keen eyes or for having bough the right skills/items. Having the wall collapse and kill you will puzzle players so much they'll probably try it again lot's of times, trying to keep away or use a different explosive; they are so used to this kind of metagaming that it's a no-brainer: it has to be something good.

Let's say a game presents a encounter like this:

You meet a tortoise on the desert.

1. Donate jewgold.
2. Curse DU and walk away.
3. [l33t hacking skillz] Use greasemonkey to hide it.

Choosing 3 will be a no-brainer for most players, you have the skillz, you get the best choice. You'll never expect something like this:

[SUCCESS] You hide the annoying notice, but this displeases DU, that bans you to RPG Watch.

GAME OVER. (Create new alt?)

Get my point? What people are arguing that is "thinking by thenselves" is nothing more than metagaming on a retarded logic, that anything that required a bit more effort will wield better results. If Fallout 1 had a encounter where you find a "magical-looking machine that is missing a water chip", most players would blindly place their water chips there, no matter that is a unique item they spent the last 8 hours just to get. They know they'll get something good out of it, and if the machine simply crushed the water chip, people would probably try to sue Interplay.