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Game News Age of Decadence September Update

suejak

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Another priceless thread... was bored at work and read the whole thing.

I can't believe anyone cares about the quest teleporting. Walking from point A to point B over and over again is the most annoying thing about RPGs. Sure I like checking out the place the first time. But do I enjoy going from point A to point B over and over and over again? No. Maybe if it burned real world calories rather than real world minutes than I would change my mind.

Seriously, what the fuck!?!?

You can wander around all you want in AoD, just not DURING a quest. Big fucking deal. If you want to pretend you are practicing for the Teron marathon and spend 5 or 6 hours jogging around town then go right ahead. The game doesn't prevent you from being retarded. Knock yourself out. Spend the day playing your "jogging simulation."

I just don't get it. You CAN wander around aimlessly if you want.

I wonder how many weeks of my life I have wasted running from point A to point B so that I could continue the game. Games have way too much of this shit. I think the quest teleporting in AOD is great and welcome more of it in future games at least until the day comes where running in a cRPG actually burns calories and helps me tone my body.
Have you ever played a game that involves "wandering"?

Was it "aimless wandering"?

I'm trying to think of the last great RPG that relied on the player simply dicking around to discover content. I guess they're all Elder Scrolls games.
 

Tramboi

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This thread is interesting.
Exploiting implementation shortcomings, AI limitations, finite (and limited) processing resources and mere bugs is crafting one's own story.
Tip : use IDA pro and OllyDbg to change the game code and poke some memory, you'll be able to craft awesome stories.
 

suejak

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This thread is interesting.
Exploiting implementation shortcomings, AI limitations, finite (and limited) processing resources and mere bugs is crafting one's own story.
Tip : use IDA pro and OllyDbg to change the game code and poke some memory, you'll be able to craft awesome stories.
Huh? That can be part of it, but I think the best stories have not been about exploiting implementation shortcoming, AI limitations, or finite processing resources. Are you only reading the AoD "cool shit" stories?

Did you miss the Deus Ex and Arcanum stories? The Fallout 2 stories?
 

almondblight

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Teleportation: You know what other game had teleportation during quests?

Fallout? You teleported during the quest to kill Kane, and I think at least one of the quests in Junktown (to kill Gizmo with Killian?) and for the assault on the Regulators.
 

Balor

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Ok, I've read this thread, and let me sum it up:
9 FUCKING PAGES of arguing Apples and Oranges.

Suejak wants sandboxy, 'choose your own adventure' type of gameplay. Cynics might say - a LARP simulator. You don't need to influence VD to get it. Pick any recent game by Bethesda. :troll:
Well, there is much fun to be had with those games, and I had some fun with Morrowind (modding included), not much with Oblivion (way too banalshitboring) and I liked Skyrim... at least for a few hours, intill I run into some of it's major balancing issue - I quit and for now it is shelved until modders will fix it, heh. Perhaps in a few month I will try it again. As for classics, Fallout and Arcanum also qualify, of course.

VD wants his game to be story-driven, more like Planescape. Great fun can had with those games too - Planescape and KOTOR2 are my favorite games, moreso in fact that Fallout or Arcanum.
But I can easily see how some might prefer one subtype over an other... well, I can see how some prefer shooters or football sims, too! It does not mean one choice inferior compared to the other.
Apples and oranges, apples and oranges.

But please disregard my post and continue, though. It is quite amusing.

As for teleporting - teleporting the player, unless he is tragged somewhere at swordpoint (and with a bag over his head), to a place where he never had before is a bad taste, not unlike Oblivion's fast travel to places you've never seen. It does rob the player of exploration and is too much handholding.
But it is excellent tool to minimize backtracking, and should be utilized for this purpose as often as possible.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Teleportation: You know what other game had teleportation during quests?

Fallout? You teleported during the quest to kill Kane, and I think at least one of the quests in Junktown (to kill Gizmo with Killian?) and for the assault on the Regulators.
Yes, pretty sure a lot of games did it - sporadically.
 

St. Toxic

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You don't even get to walk through the vault -- You start outside! :eek:

There's that piece of cgi that covers that.

But sure, plenty of quests had you tp to the quest area (well, it was optional for the most part) like the rad-scorpion caves in Shady Sands and a number of quests in Junktown, for instance. I mean, sometimes the quest has to happen at night or take place in a non-essential sub-area, or run off a script that includes several npc characters that would otherwise not be found there without the quest trigger; it's a cost-effective solution if not a "good" one. But if you're tp'd as part of a conversation, say Bob wants to tell Steve that he's an asshole and Steve is in another town and you're to act as a middleman, it just feels weird not to get the sequence of events broken up; you don't feel involved in what's going on, it's like you're getting a second-hand account of the parts deemed important by someone else. If walking from Bob to Steve is going to be a pointless journey, but nonetheless story-essential, it's better not to involve the player directly -- send a boy servant or something and give me the choice of waiting (tp through time is fine, we all have to sleep) or coming back later.
 

Drowed

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The "sad" thing is that, yeah, it is exactly that. Or do you really think the interesting part is to end the conversation, then click on the door. Click on another door. Click the ground to the edge of the map. Wait for loading. Click on the floor until you reach the other door. Enter the house. Clicking into the room. Clicking the character. Continue dialogue.

So interesting and deep.

It really is.

I'm glad to have found a kindred spirit.

Pffft. That's what every single fucking game is like. In fact, that's what life is like, too.

Well, yeah, and it sucks both in life and in games.

But I agree that the main point would be to discuss why there is a discomfort in the way in which AOD conducts these "teleports". From what I understand, you can still wander around the city to make any random things you want to do that and not have any influence on the quest in question - just do it after or before, not during it. Not to mention that the game offers the possibility of going "on foot", when it makes sense. And from what I'm hearing, it seems to be even more common in the final version.

But what I really do not understand is the fact that all this talk seems empty, since the "teleport" don't prevent you from exploring the cities in the game, finding interesting things, and all that "nonsense" (not that it is useless, but the the argument in question is) being repeated ad nauseam. It just skips the part where you would walk during a quest, it does not change what you can do before or after it. And so when someone speak of freedom of exploration, I cannot understand where was that it was "taken". It is still there, almost unchanged.

No matter how hard they try to disguise it, still sounds to me that the problem is that the person cannot get a quest and be prowling around the world *during* it - because that is the only difference that I see in the game.

I do, however, agree that something is off, something about the way in which this teleporting is done cause an estrangement. But I believe that this is not a mechanical problem in itself, but the problem is in how it is presented, so sudden, without transitions, raw. Something that from what I understand, is already being worked on.
 

mikaelis

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014
So, we should expect to have it finished and ready within 6-12 months? Finally some great news. You will get my money the first day it is out (probably earlier, if the changes that were done - notably to UI - will further go in the right direction).

I am in favor of simplifying the combat a bit (or adding some sort of easy mode), but if it breaks the whole system and the way the game is supposed to be played from the design point of view, then I would rather not have it changed.
 
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Yeah, gotta say one thing that struck me is how there's a skill for every type of weapon... but none for Armour. No Heavy Armour skill? No Light Armour skill? Or perhaps "Plate Armour" and "Chain Armour" skills.
I just don't see it as a skill. It takes some skill to dodge an attack or to block it. It doesn't take much skill to put on armor. Sure, there is some "getting used to", but not enough to turn it into a skill, imo. What would this skill do? Reduce penalties? That's what Crafting does and it makes more sense.

I do disagree with a Armor skill. It's a passive thing, it doesn't require any skill to wear one.
And there are already disadvantages into wearing an heavy armor: less max AP and more weight to carry.

Martial combat treatises (eastern and western) have sections dedicated to armoured combat not because it is practically a complicated thing to wear and to fight with. You don't just put it on and hope that your enemies hit only the spots covered by your armour. They teach how to kill other people in armour, to work around the armour where needed and to prevent one's self from getting killed in armour in the same manner. Armour is not a passive piece of equipment that simply protects unconditionally. And it also requires conditioning by training so that the wearer can withstand longer bouts of fighting carrying that weight.

The disadvantages to wearing various kinds of armour, especially mail or plate, are far smaller than people think. Most armour don't restrict movement to the degree that people are stuck thinking in Hollywood clichés, which wouldn't make any sense to begin with. Ancient Romans marched in mail (plus all of their other equipment) for fucking days straight and then managed to fight and not die in the process.

Training with weapons are handled in a similar manner. Learning how to fight with any given weapon is synonymous with learning how to block, dodge and counter-attack using that weapon. They were taught to fight with weapon of choice vs. many other mainstream weapons. Sword vs. sword. Vs. axe. Vs. spear. They can not be thought of as separate forms of training existing in vacuum (though there can be and are ways of blocking or dodging outside specific weapon skill sets). If there is a "Sword" skill, it should encompass knowing how to block with it or to dodge with it.

Shield also belongs to the same train of thought. In medieval treatises, shields also have their own sections and training. Fighting with and against shield is in a different category than without. Very much like armour and weapons.

I don't agree with the idea of multiple armour skills but I think one armour skill to use with mail and plates is a must and maybe, two at most to include other lower tiers of armour too but I definitely agree that Block must be replaced with Shield and blocking incorporated into weapon skills and maybe with a bonus from armour skill when in armour (because someone in armour who knows how to fight in armour can afford to commit to his actions more aggressively).

Which brings me to my criticism of AoD's combat and somebody has expressed a similar thing before: it doesn't involve enough and for a game where almost every combat encounter has a very special place in the story, a game with little to no filler combat, it doesn't provide a tactical resource management layer outside ammo (throwing knives, bolts etc.). As someone who is fond of PnP RPG mechanics, I would have expected more PnP-ish things from VD.

Yes, there are a number of attack options but that's pretty much it. You end up defining your play style just by attacking... or not attacking. I would have liked things like offence vs. defense pools, the ability to decide how passive or aggressive I can be outside deciding whether to guerilla warfare or not. I would have liked more interesting *choices*, active choices other than believing in the numbers of my passive skills and hoping for the best.

I would like, for instance, the armour question -and a bunch of other things- to be handled via stamina pools. More an encounter went on, more difficult it gets to maintain efficiency where stamina would be a tactical consideration. More weight and/or more movement, attacking too many times or being attacked too many times and having to block or dodge too many times have an impact on my capabilities. Plan ahead and fight with these considerations in mind. Think of all the great duels in great flims like The Duellists or Rob Roy or what have you where it becomes a question of endurance and will power between opponents of equal skill.

I would have liked to have a active choice on whether I will try to block or dodge the next attack that I anticipate from my opponent when I decide to refrain from spending my APs in my turn and save it for a reaction bonus or whatever it was in AoD when it will be enemy's turn. I want the same to be available to AI and I want to take note whether I can observe the AI opponent preparing to do either when it doesn't spend its APs as well.

I enjoyed the combat demo and THE demo and played both several times to the end but combat left a sour taste in my mouth. It was fun because it was challenging and gruesome and was satisfying when you beat the odds. And it wasn't because it didn't involve me much.

Consider this: I recently played Conquistador and even though it's a far simpler game in terms of abstraction and tactical considerations in regard to skills, the combat experience was far more enjoyable compared to AoD because the game involved my active choice in a lot of situations where I alone could decide whether I wanted to attack or defend or flank an opponent or a number of other things. It gave me choices outside moving and attacking.

Rounding a bunch of passive probability scores under skill names without any involvement of choice is a bit sandboxy in a mainstream way where developers are afraid to give the players too many options because they might confuse and scare the console kiddies.
 

Marsal

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Wishful thinking.

A very thoughtful post. Thanks.

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Three more years...
 
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At least we can hope that all this bitching will motivate VD to come up with more interesting and involving choices for his party-based next game.




Sometime around 2020 :troll:
 
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There are PNP RPGs that do that kind of stuff. Codex Martialis and The Riddle of Steel has very similar stuff to name two. I wasn't being creative or original at all. Vampire: The Masquerade also has mechanically similar stuff where you can control and redirect the blood in your system to parts of your body to avoid blood loss when wounded or to enhance your muscular strength and you watch and maintain your blood pool for a lot of actions like that.
 
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Another idea I had while thinking about The Riddle of Steel that could have improved AoD's combat: healing is pretty trivial in AoD once you survive a battle. It's just a matter of money (which I commend because it adds a real purpose to money). Damage received in combat could cause fatigue -eg. varying degrees of stamina penalty in my wishful thinking above- for a while (1 day, a few days, a week or more), depending on the severity of the wounds or the amount of damage received though I can see how this might have been a problem in AoD since there is no sandboxy passage of time. Another idea for the next game, then.
 

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