An Unfavourable Review of Oblivion

[Voltare]

if you couldn't find caius in the first 25 minutes of the game, you are retarded and really really need to go back to fps's and stay the fuck away from rpg's.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

if you couldn't find caius in the first 25 minutes of the game, you are retarded and really really need to go back to fps's and stay the fuck away from rpg's.

While it makes for an easy chuckle, the issue isn't quite as simple. The problem is actually that the game encourages you to NOT go to find Caius in the first 25 minutes, it encourages you to just go out and seek adventure, explore, do side quests. After playing for 10 hours, spread over three gaming session, and with the original horrible journal, you don't have to be retarded to have forgotten what you were supposed to do and in fact THAT you were supposed to do anything. So, it's not such a sign of idiocy as you might like to think.

the underlying design flaw, IMHO, is that the events of the main quest are so player centric (triggered exclusively by player action) - were there actually a sense of urgency as events unfold showing Dagoth's conquest, and repeated reminders to the player (letter from Caius, newspaper ads "missing code package sought, please deliver to C. Cosades, Balmora"). Of course the compass in Oblivion is a somewhat cheap solution, but it's not entirely fair to say the problem existed only for the mentally challenged, it points to an actual design flaw that had to be addressed in some way.

 

[Excrément]

the underlying design flaw, IMHO, is that the events of the main quest are so player centric (triggered exclusively by player action) - were there actually a sense of urgency as events unfold showing Dagoth's conquest, and repeated reminders to the player (letter from Caius, newspaper ads "missing code package sought, please deliver to C. Cosades, Balmora"). Of course the compass in Oblivion is a somewhat cheap solution, but it's not entirely fair to say the problem existed only for the mentally challenged, it points to an actual design flaw that had to be addressed in some way.

you are right, the main problem of Morrowind it was the lack of immersion.
So I am not surprised people didn't find Caïus because, except the journal, nothing makes you feel you have to look for Caïus Cosades.
You don't care about Caïus because you don't care about the background story, and that's one of the flaw of Morrowind. It was also a flaw of Daggerfall (but in daggerfall you had the ghost to remind you to do the main quest).
I prefer to decide to not do the main quest because my character doesn't care about Caïus and the problems of the emperor than not doing the main quest because I don't see why the mainquest is important.

 

[Claw]

As you say, a good non-linear RPG story may involve you mentally, allow you to make moral choices etc. But even a linear story can be designed intelligently, for the same reason a book can be. There are many different forms of "intelligent" entertainment, and since RPG is such a diffuse genre, many of them can apply to RPG design, which is why I say one shouldnt automatically scoff at a linear design.

Well, I don't think design is the term I'd use in that context, but I was referring to the concept of having a linear story. I feel the developers actually admit that in their defense of linear design, when they argue that they spend all their efforts on "epic," "deep" or "complex" quests/stories. The way they defend linearity, it sounds to me like non-linearity is just too difficult for them.
I don't mind if developers want to focus on telling a great story. As long as it really is great and the player wants to follow it, it makes a great - Adventure. I don't see this label as derogatory. Isn't the adventure genre supposedly dead? I guess it's ghost is haunting the RPG genre.

As to Oblivion it's too early to say, but again there are other ways to have stimulating intelligent design than the Fallout way.

Well, sure. You can have an intelligently designed combat system, for example. But I was referring to the implementation of story and quests. Simple solutions are linearity, limited player input, and keeping 'em seperate so you don't have to consider interdependancies. Maybe a complex design isn't more intelligent per se, but looking at the results, I feel otherwise.
Maybe I am just at a loss to put a label on my expecation of a complex, interactive game world where I feel that my choices matter, or maybe it's just the impression that there is more intelligence required to make a non-linear game than make a linear one and say it's got an "deep" and "epic" story.

Last not least, even though you say a linear story can be intelligent, and developers regularly claim they want to make great stories, I don't find it in the games; see also the recent debate about the quality of Morrowind's quests in contrast to Daggerfall's for reference.

 

[Thrawn05]

you are right, the main problem of Morrowind it was the lack of immersion.
So I am not surprised people didn't find Caïus because, except the journal, nothing makes you feel you have to look for Caïus Cosades.
You don't care about Caïus because you don't care about the background story, and that's one of the flaw of Morrowind. It was also a flaw of Daggerfall (but in daggerfall you had the ghost to remind you to do the main quest).
I prefer to decide to not do the main quest because my character doesn't care about Caïus and the problems of the emperor than not doing the main quest because I don't see why the mainquest is important.

You so want someone to hold your hand? If you don't care that's your fucking problem. And did you EVEN PLAY Daggerfall? There was no damn ghost reminding you of any quest.

 

[Levski 1912]

you are right, the main problem of Morrowind it was the lack of immersion.

How is that a problem of immersion? I would much rather describe it as a subset of the general lack of any direction in Morrowind, coupled with the lack of any kind of consequences that could be inflicted on the player.

 

[Excrément]

you are right, the main problem of Morrowind it was the lack of immersion.

How is that a problem of immersion? I would much rather describe it as a subset of the general lack of any direction in Morrowind, coupled with the lack of any kind of consequences that could be inflicted on the player.

Direction is the easiest way to make you do the main quest (so the quest compass), immersion makes you feel the interest of the main quest and so looking for directions you can find alone.

 

[Thrawn05]

you are right, the main problem of Morrowind it was the lack of immersion.

How is that a problem of immersion? I would much rather describe it as a subset of the general lack of any direction in Morrowind, coupled with the lack of any kind of consequences that could be inflicted on the player.

Direction is the easiest way to make you do the main quest (so the quest compass), immersion makes you feel the interest of the main quest and so looking for directions you can find alone.

Okay, I understand you now. You want an RPG where an Elf with big tits is pleading to you in a sultry voice to perform a certain quest.

 

[Excrément]

you are right, the main problem of Morrowind it was the lack of immersion.

How is that a problem of immersion? I would much rather describe it as a subset of the general lack of any direction in Morrowind, coupled with the lack of any kind of consequences that could be inflicted on the player.

Direction is the easiest way to make you do the main quest (so the quest compass), immersion makes you feel the interest of the main quest and so looking for directions you can find alone.

Okay, I understand you now. You want an RPG where an Elf with big tits is pleading to you in a sultry voice to perform a certain quest.

Nope, for example in Morrowind, I would expect than I see the fear on a lot of NPCS talking about Dagoth...so that one day I wake up and say this frightened NPCS are a pain in the ass so I should do the main quest.
or I would like to have blades from the empire sent to remind me my quest or kill me if I refuse it, stuff like that.

I would like a Elf with big tits reminds me I have to do the main quest if I play a porn fantasy RPG game (this genre could be cool)

 

[Thrawn05]

Nope, for example in Morrowind, I would expect than I see the fear on a lot of NPCS talking about Dagoth...so that one day I wake up and say this frightened NPCS are a pain in the ass so I should do the main quest.
or I would like to have blades from the empire sent to remind me my quest or kill me if I refuse it, stuff like that.

I would like a Elf with big tits reminds me I have to do the main quest if I play a porn fantasy RPG game (this genre could be cool)

Listen Forest Gump, if you need a fucking a game that reminds you to do a quest like a toothache reminding you go to the dentist then you shouldn't be playing these games.

 

[OverrideB1]

While I had no problem in finding Cosades, I had no incentive to find him - either in game terms or in role-playing terms.

You've just been kicked off a prison ship (where you've spent an unspecified amount of time as a "guest" of the Emperor) and are ungraciously given a package by a totally unsympathetic NPC who's in the employ of the self-same Emperor. In role-playing terms, only my first character cared enough about the Empire's problems to actually deliver the package and gave up running errands for Cosades before too much time had passed.

In game-play terms, there is nothing driving you towards Cosades and your role as Maud'dib... sorry, the "Chosen One". Even the funky dreams rely on you being a certain way through the MQ. So, I am flummoxed as to why Bethesda would be surprised that people "didn't find Cosades" if that was actually the reason behind Todd Howard's rather all-encompassing statement. But... (and you just knew that there would be a "but", didn't you?)

If that was actually the case: that people weren't finding Cosades because they didn't care to do so - rather than being unable to find their rear-end with both hands and a map, why not say so? Instead, we got the dismissive comment that "most people who played couldn't find Cosades". Note - not "didn't want to" but "couldn't". And, if that is the case, then the very freeform nature of the beast is to blame rather than the players. So what makes them (Bethesda) think that the GPS system will change or improve matters if that was the real reason behind the decision?

I fail to see how a blinking indicator on a compass is going to be "more immersive" and prompt people with double-digit IQ's and some memory of the freeform nature of a proper RPG to fulfill the MQ. Because I'm pretty certain that there's nothing driving the MQ other than the compass - no areas of countryside laid waste (because that would ruin all those pretty trees), no towns invested, placed under seige, or raised to the ground if you don't follow through on the MQ in a timely manner.

 

[Thrawn05]

If that was actually the case: that people weren't finding Cosades because they didn't care to do so - rather than being unable to find their rear-end with both hands and a map, why not say so? Instead, we got the dismissive comment that "most people who played couldn't find Cosades". Note - not "didn't want to" but "couldn't". And, if that is the case, then the very freeform nature of the beast is to blame rather than the players. So what makes them (Bethesda) think that the GPS system will change or improve matters if that was the real reason behind the decision?

I have no problem with freeform or more linear RPGs. I just can't understand the problem people have with freeform. If you want to do it, then do the quest. If you don't, then don't. Don't blame anyone but yourself.

There was nothing stopping anyone in Arena and Daggerfall from doing what they want either. But since those were PC games I don't hear the amount of fustration with the freeform in those games as I do with MW.

 

[Solik]

And did you EVEN PLAY Daggerfall? There was no damn ghost reminding you of any quest.

Apparently, you never visited the city of Daggerfall at night.

Your other comments were unprovoked flame bait that had pretty much nothing to do with what the other poster was saying. Not very good form, guy.

Listen Forest Gump, if you need a fucking a game that reminds you to do a quest like a toothache reminding you go to the dentist then you shouldn't be playing these games.

So you've never put a game down for a few days or a week or two or something because you had other things to do, then came back and forgot what you were doing?

Because I'm pretty certain that there's nothing driving the MQ other than the compass - no areas of countryside laid waste (because that would ruin all those pretty trees), no towns invested, placed under seige, or raised to the ground if you don't follow through on the MQ in a timely manner.

There was an interesting thread on this over on the ESF some time ago (yes, one of the few). The camp ended up being split into two groups -- the group that agreed with you that urgency and consequence should be placed into the game, and the group that argued that "timers" would make it less of an RPG and prevent you from doing all the other side quests, exploration stuff, and so forth, particularly in subsequent play-throughs.

I just can't understand the problem people have with freeform.

They're rare and comparatively unconventional. Most gamers are used to picking up a game, poking at it a little to figure out its rules, then blasting through it from point A to point B. Freeform games are a whole different beast. The first time someone plays one, they're going to get lost and frustrated. You have to adjust the mindset that you use to approach it. Morrowind was many people's first ever freeform game. It's got nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with experience. I assume that you, like me, were raised on freeform games (Zelda 1 and Alternate Reality for me).

But since those were less-popular games with far fewer players in the era before the explosion of the Internet I don't hear the amount of fustration with the freeform in those games as I do with MW.

Fixed.

 

[Excrément]

If that was actually the case: that people weren't finding Cosades because they didn't care to do so - rather than being unable to find their rear-end with both hands and a map, why not say so? Instead, we got the dismissive comment that "most people who played couldn't find Cosades". Note - not "didn't want to" but "couldn't". And, if that is the case, then the very freeform nature of the beast is to blame rather than the players. So what makes them (Bethesda) think that the GPS system will change or improve matters if that was the real reason behind the decision?

I have no problem with freeform or more linear RPGs. I just can't understand the problem people have with freeform. If you want to do it, then do the quest. If you don't, then don't. Don't blame anyone but yourself.

There was nothing stopping anyone in Arena and Daggerfall from doing what they want either. But since those were PC games I don't hear the amount of fustration with the freeform in those games as I do with MW.

I enjor freeform RPGs, that's why I love the TES games. My perfect game to my taste is a freeform RPG with a total immersion. Daggerfall has a betterimmersion than Morrowind.
And I think Oblivion is gonna be better than both.

I want to feel the game, to feel the lore, to feel I am a part of this virtual world. And it is because I feel this virtual world that I do or not do (according to my role-play) the main quest. It is not a question of linearity for me.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

While I had no problem in finding Cosades, I had no incentive to find him - either in game terms or in role-playing terms.

You've just been kicked off a prison ship (where you've spent an unspecified amount of time as a "guest" of the Emperor) and are ungraciously given a package by a totally unsympathetic NPC who's in the employ of the self-same Emperor. In role-playing terms, only my first character cared enough about the Empire's problems to actually deliver the package and gave up running errands for Cosades before too much time had passed.

In game-play terms, there is nothing driving you towards Cosades and your role as Maud'dib... sorry, the "Chosen One". Even the funky dreams rely on you being a certain way through the MQ. So, I am flummoxed as to why Bethesda would be surprised that people "didn't find Cosades" if that was actually the reason behind Todd Howard's rather all-encompassing statement. But... (and you just knew that there would be a "but", didn't you?)

If that was actually the case: that people weren't finding Cosades because they didn't care to do so - rather than being unable to find their rear-end with both hands and a map, why not say so? Instead, we got the dismissive comment that "most people who played couldn't find Cosades". Note - not "didn't want to" but "couldn't". And, if that is the case, then the very freeform nature of the beast is to blame rather than the players. So what makes them (Bethesda) think that the GPS system will change or improve matters if that was the real reason behind the decision?

I fail to see how a blinking indicator on a compass is going to be "more immersive" and prompt people with double-digit IQ's and some memory of the freeform nature of a proper RPG to fulfill the MQ. Because I'm pretty certain that there's nothing driving the MQ other than the compass - no areas of countryside laid waste (because that would ruin all those pretty trees), no towns invested, placed under seige, or raised to the ground if you don't follow through on the MQ in a timely manner.

Pretty much what I am saying, except for the pessimissm.
To be fair, a lot of more freeform games have that problem. Why should I care about the main quest in Baldurs Gate? Why should I care in Daggerfall? The beauty of those games is, in a way, that you don't have to care, if you want you can just wander off. In more linear games its simple - nothing happens if you don't progress on the questline, and there is nothing else to see or do, either. I can live with that decision to not have urgency, but it would be really nice for a few more games to go th other direction. Hell, I think Fallout is the ONLY such game I can recall right now.

 

[OverrideB1]

I may have been a bit unclear - I have no problem with free-form games. In fact, I prefer them to the more linear RPGs since I dislike the feeling of being driven on rails towards the game's conclusion. I can also live without a false sense of urgency imposed by mutterings of impending doom if that's what it takes to get a free-form RPG.

However, don a cap other than a long-term hardcore RPG-player and look at MW from the perspective of the people who usually play Final Fantasy. You have a open world where you can - quite literally - go anywhere and do anything and there is nothing driving you onward to complete the MQ. With nothing pushing them onwards - they were left clueless and lost.

Now, much as I detest the GPS, Bethesda think that they have a cure for this in the form of the Quest-Compass. But their reluctance to admit that it can be disabled speaks volumes. Whereas Daggerfall was designed much more for the hardcore RPG audience, MW tried to straddle two camps - the long-term TES fans and the more popular "mass market". And the awful truth dawned on Bethesda - these are two radically different markets (a fact that they could have discovered for themselves with a few moment's of logical forethought).

The other fact that rapidly dawned on Bethesda was that it wasn't the long-term fans that had all the folding green - it was the populist market that had that.

Guess which market Oblivion is being developed for?

As for the pessimism, I think that's fully justified. One of the last few non-independent creators of RPGs has, in effect, sold out its long-term fans in favour of the money - not that I blame them for that decision, but it's a bitter pill. Other than the indie-developers, there is not, now, anyone who is willing to develop a game that might be a little risky because it doesn't pander to the mass-market. And that doesn't bode well for FO3

 

[Atraxerxes]

This is just a observation that I would like to add to this. Perhaps if the begining of Morrowind had been handeled differently, then the confusion over the main quest would be less. If you had been directed to talk to the "Blades" agent at the port from the start, who would then order you to talk to the Balmora character, with perhaps a veiled threat of "we'll be watching you". The player's character would then feel a need to become involved in the main quest. A sense of you have been sent here to do a job for us and if you don't you'll be dead, might add a need and interest to that quest. Then allowing the player the means to accompish it by his or her own choices would give him or her the "freedom of choice" in the game.

 

[Thrawn05]

Apparently, you never visited the city of Daggerfall at night.

Your other comments were unprovoked flame bait that had pretty much nothing to do with what the other poster was saying. Not very good form, guy.

How is that reminding you of a quest? That's like Morte in planscape telling you "We're being watched cheif". And I don't see a problem with my posts. They were within topic. :D

So you've never put a game down for a few days or a week or two or something because you had other things to do, then came back and forgot what you were doing?

No. Next stupid question.

They're rare and comparatively unconventional. Most gamers are used to picking up a game, poking at it a little to figure out its rules, then blasting through it from point A to point B. Freeform games are a whole different beast. The first time someone plays one, they're going to get lost and frustrated. You have to adjust the mindset that you use to approach it. Morrowind was many people's first ever freeform game. It's got nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with experience. I assume that you, like me, were raised on freeform games (Zelda 1 and Alternate Reality for me).

I agree. It's just some refuse to accept it and complain. I like you.

Fixed.

Now I don't. :wink:

 

[Thrawn05]

I enjor freeform RPGs, that's why I love the TES games. My perfect game to my taste is a freeform RPG with a total immersion. Daggerfall has a betterimmersion than Morrowind.
And I think Oblivion is gonna be better than both.

DF was the last good ES game. I can't believe anyone would buy into MW and OB being better then DF.

I want to feel the game, to feel the lore, to feel I am a part of this virtual world. And it is because I feel this virtual world that I do or not do (according to my role-play) the main quest. It is not a question of linearity for me.

I think that's illegal.

You don't need to feel a game to enjoy it. If you're the type that wants to get lost in their games, I really suggest you get out more.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I may have been a bit unclear - I have no problem with free-form games. In fact, I prefer them to the more linear RPGs since I dislike the feeling of being driven on rails towards the game's conclusion. I can also live without a false sense of urgency imposed by mutterings of impending doom if that's what it takes to get a free-form RPG.

However, don a cap other than a long-term hardcore RPG-player and look at MW from the perspective of the people who usually play Final Fantasy. You have a open world where you can - quite literally - go anywhere and do anything and there is nothing driving you onward to complete the MQ. With nothing pushing them onwards - they were left clueless and lost.

Now, much as I detest the GPS, Bethesda think that they have a cure for this in the form of the Quest-Compass. But their reluctance to admit that it can be disabled speaks volumes. Whereas Daggerfall was designed much more for the hardcore RPG audience, MW tried to straddle two camps - the long-term TES fans and the more popular "mass market". And the awful truth dawned on Bethesda - these are two radically different markets (a fact that they could have discovered for themselves with a few moment's of logical forethought).

The other fact that rapidly dawned on Bethesda was that it wasn't the long-term fans that had all the folding green - it was the populist market that had that.

Guess which market Oblivion is being developed for?

As for the pessimism, I think that's fully justified. One of the last few non-independent creators of RPGs has, in effect, sold out its long-term fans in favour of the money - not that I blame them for that decision, but it's a bitter pill. Other than the indie-developers, there is not, now, anyone who is willing to develop a game that might be a little risky because it doesn't pander to the mass-market. And that doesn't bode well for FO3

Ther is no doubt they try to cater to a large audience. The to me still open question is to what extent that actually really has a negative impact on my enjoyment of the game. Despite a number of negative changes, I found MW a more enjoyable game than Daggerfall, so the trends you hate may not be so bad for me. Or they may be. I have to play it first.

 

[dongle]

if you couldn't find caius in the first 25 minutes of the game, you are retarded and really really need to go back to fps's and stay the fuck away from rpg's.

I just realized this; With the Xbox Live achievements thingie they'll have actual numbers this time around.

If there is the Oblivion equivalent of a Caius (Reynald Jemane?) and they set an achievement point for finding him, presumably Microsoft can provide them -actual- statistics on the number of players that find him. A dev can also see the relative popularity of, say, the guilds based on how many players sign up and then gauge how compelling/difficult they are based on how many stay on to become guild heads. I wonder, can the average Joe log in and see the total number of Oblivion players and what achievements have been achieved?

Wouldn't answer Override's question of -why- players aren't "finding" Caius, still would be interesting data to pour over.

And, of course, it would be Xbox data, and thus inherently flawed. :D

 

[Antiphon]

Pretty much what I am saying, except for the pessimissm.
To be fair, a lot of more freeform games have that problem. Why should I care about the main quest in Baldurs Gate? Why should I care in Daggerfall? The beauty of those games is, in a way, that you don't have to care, if you want you can just wander off. In more linear games its simple - nothing happens if you don't progress on the questline, and there is nothing else to see or do, either. I can live with that decision to not have urgency, but it would be really nice for a few more games to go th other direction. Hell, I think Fallout is the ONLY such game I can recall right now.

I really love apathy. In real life, I’m trying to reach the next level of existence though apathy alone.

 

[Excrément]

DF was the last good ES game. I can't believe anyone would buy into MW and OB being better then DF.

that's because you are brainwashed by all the negative posters over here.

 

[LlamaGod]

DF wasnt even good, you jerks

 

[Nog Robbin]

I agree that there is a difference between "could not find" and "could not be bothered to find". I think Bethesda would find those that didn't find Caius would fall into both camps - but the more vocierfous would be those that either couldn't follow instructions, or simply forgot and didn't think to look in the journal for some guidance.

Surely in a "free roaming" RPG it's perfectly permissible for chaaracters to not bother with the main quest. In MW I had some characters that didn't. Either they had no desire to follow instructions, or would get a distance in and find something they just didn't believe in doing. However, you would expect in a world where Dagoth Ur is trying to break out and poor terror on the lands (or in the case of OB where Daedra are planning an invasion) that this would happen apace, regardless of whether or not I was following the main quest? What - did Dagoth Ur decide to put his plans on hold until the real Nerevar showed up? Will the Daedra hold off invading until someone is bothered enough to try and stop them?
If the game world did evolve whether or not the player was following the quest it could be reason enough for some characters to actually start caring about the main quest - even if it is only out of selfish desires of not dying
Once you have that in place (a real reason for the character to go along with the quest - not just for the player to go along with the quest), then you just need to have things that can redirect the player to where to go. And no - a quest compass isn't the solution here. It should be NPC's with enough character to help guide the player in the right direction - be that information to go to a particular town where you can find out more, or people actively searching for you. You *can* still ignore the quest - but obviously things are getting worse. Whether the player revels in the chaos, or decides to try and stop it is still up to the player.