AOD Release Date and the nature of Indie Projects

[Vault Dweller]

But you're not making a AAA title.

Neither Fallout nor Arcanum were AAA titles, whatever that means.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Is what I posted mostly true?

 

[Serious_Business]

Lazy, unorganized fucks!!!

Not really the argument here, the argument is that you're spending as much time polishing the game as you did creating it. I know this has been done over 20 times already, but you have to admit this is kind of a frustrating situation. You can say it works for Blizzard, but I'm yet to be convinced that the polishing in AoD is all that important. I would need to see the before and after releases I guess, but I mean, it can be said that a lot of polishing is made for the game to be more apealing to others than the hardcore 200 people fanbase. That doesn't make the whole thing very satisfying to these 200 persons, but then if the game doesn't sell we won't get anything else, so yeah I get it. But still, release the goddamn game

 

[Vault Dweller]

From what I can tell, they are pretty much done as far as content is concerned (quests, items, etc). Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems what they have left to do is polishing, tweaking, and bug-testing.

Have they finished the sound? Because all they had left to do in 2006 was sound, polishing, tweaking, and bug-testing.

Have I offended you in any way, obediah? Nothing really comes to mind, yet you rarely miss a chance to claim that AoD was mismanaged.

For the record, Oscar joined us in 2007 and it took him 2 years to redo all locations and re-texture everything. Mismanagement? If we had Oscar with us since day one, the game would have been released already. I'm sure you understand that quality people are always hard to find, but they are especially hard to find when you offer them an unpaid job on an indie project. Sure, we could have released the game "as is" but the difference is huge:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 6_0022.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 6_0040.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 6_0038.jpg

vs.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 9_0040.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 9_0031.jpg

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 8_0217.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 9_0005.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 9_0006.jpg

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii15 ... 8_0196.jpg

We've learned a lot in 5 years. It became obvious that some features designed in the first year had to be changed. It would have been counter-productive to do otherwise.

As for the demo, it took us several extra months to go through testers' feedback and tweak and even add features that had to be there. In case you're interested:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... opic=818.0
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... opic=816.0
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... opic=806.0
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... 2#msg25832

 

[Vault Dweller]

Lazy, unorganized fucks!!!

Not really the argument here, the argument is that you're spending as much time polishing the game as you did creating it.

It doesn't take much to create something. How many poorly designed games with half-baked features have you played? Arcanum was in development for 3 years. Does anyone doubt that it should have been in development for at least another year? Same goes for Gothic 3, KOTOR2, and a shitload of other games.

You can say it works for Blizzard, but I'm yet to be convinced that the polishing in AoD is all that important.

You are entitled to your opinion.

I would need to see the before and after releases I guess, but I mean, it can be said that a lot of polishing is made for the game to be more apealing to others than the hardcore 200 people fanbase.

Tempting, but we'd have to do a bit more than sell 200 copies if we want to stick around as a business.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Is what I posted mostly true?

More or less, except for the perfectionist part. I've posted the demo testing feedback openly. Are you under the impression that what we did to fix the issues was perfectionism or something that simply had to be done?

 

[Barrow_Bug]

Looks great I must say. Are you guys doing any kind of DVD release in Aus?

 

[Vault Dweller]

You'll be able to order a professionally done boxed edition and we'll ship it anywhere you want.

 

[obediah]

sigh

5 years in development? It's unheard of! Lazy, unorganized fucks!!! I explained it many, many times,

I haven't seen evidence of laziness, but AoD has certainly been an unorganized clusterfuck of game development. But that's to be expected in a first time effort. I just hope you sometimes take a break from making excuses for your mistakes/surprises to actually learn from them.

but apparently reading is indeed teh hard.

Reading it is easy, swallowing it is harder.

AoD - 4 people, 5 years part time, 20,000 hours. Do I really have to explain it?

It would be a entirely different ball game if you had said "AoD will take about 20,000 hours" at the beginning. From our vantage point, you've never been closer to releasing AoD than you were before you switched to 3D. Sure, it's a much better game now, but if anything, a release in 4-6 months looks less likely than it did one, two, three, or four years ago.

Have I offended you in any way, obediah? Nothing really comes to mind, yet you rarely miss a chance to claim that AoD was mismanaged.

No - I'm not offended, and still look forward to playing the game. But it's a horribly mismanaged software project. That's a given undertaking such a large project with so little experience. Preventing such projects is the most challenging part of my job, so I can't help but give (unwanted) criticisms. After four years, I'm pretty entrenched in my position. At this point I just have to go through the motions until you release the game.

What I'd like to see is a 6 month window where you aren't talking about making the game better, but rather working through the TODO list. Six months where you don't introduce any new work or discover work you didn't know about before hand, or find any small improvements you just have to make. If you get to that point, you can take how long you expected that 6 months of work to take to make a decent guess at how long you have left.

 

[Castanova]

But you're not making a AAA title.

And your point is...? The main difference with an AAA title is the lack of high tech graphics and voiceovers. There we've saved a lot of time compared to them, but the hours needed is still high.

The man-hour comparison from VD's post was based on teams of "50+" people. Around 40-45 of those 50 people are graphics-related/sound-related/marketing/project management positions. In other words, all the major wrappings of a AAA title. As obediah has pointed out, if the title was designed and built from the start to be what it is supposed to be now, 5 years would be an astronomical (read: embarrassing) amount of time.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I haven't seen evidence of laziness, but AoD has certainly been an unorganized clusterfuck of game development.

Proof?

But that's to be expected in a first time effort.

Unlike what? Gothic 3? KOTOR 2? ToEE? Bloodlines?

I just hope you sometimes take a break from making excuses for your mistakes...

I do learn from my mistakes, but I'm curious to know what mistakes you are referring to.

It would be a entirely different ball game if you had said "AoD will take about 20,000 hours" at the beginning.

I don't think such things can be predicted. I don't think Blizzard, for example, can estimate the time it takes to make a game. Like any art, it's a "trial-n-error" business. You do something, take a step back and look. If you like it, you move on. If not, you try again. Blizzard worked on the "warcraft in space" Starcraft version for awhile, then scrapped everything and started again. Etc, etc, etc. The examples are too numerous too mention them all, but I'm sure that you would have done a much better job due to your superior organizational skills and foresight abilities.

From our vantage point, you've never been closer to releasing AoD than you were before you switched to 3D.

I really doubt that you have enough info to make these assumptions.

But it's a horribly mismanaged software project. That's a given undertaking such a large project with so little experience. Preventing such projects is the most challenging part of my job, so I can't help but give (unwanted) criticisms.

Constructive criticism, no matter how painful, is always welcome. Unfortunately, instead of explaining your position and pointing out specific mistakes, you prefer to go with generic statement like "it's a horribly mismanaged software project. I know, because it's my job". If it is your job, I'd like to learn from you, but you don't give me much to work with, do you?

 

[Melcar]

There is no game. It's all in your mind man.

 

[Naked Ninja]

VD! Why did you fail to accurately estimate the time it would take you to perform a task you'd never attempted before?!?

You horrible mismanager you!! Putting effort into polish never pays off in the long run, look at those Blizzard 'tards and how poorly their titles sell! While innovative but unpolished titles make fantastic cartloads of cash!

Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But you're not making a AAA title.

And your point is...? The main difference with an AAA title is the lack of high tech graphics and voiceovers. There we've saved a lot of time compared to them, but the hours needed is still high.

The man-hour comparison from VD's post was based on teams of "50+" people. Around 40-45 of those 50 people are graphics-related/sound-related/marketing/project management positions. In other words, all the major wrappings of a AAA title. As obediah has pointed out, if the title was designed and built from the start to be what it is supposed to be now, 5 years would be an astronomical (read: embarrassing) amount of time.

First, 5 years part-time for 4 people who learn the trade as they go along is neither astronomical nor embarrassing. Second, neither Fallout nor Arcanum were AAA titles. Third, the number of people I listed doesn't include sound, voice-over, QA, publishing, and such. Each team had about 20 designers/programmers and 20 artists. A game should look good, should it not? Good art design a-la Fallout and OMG!Crysis!Orgasm! are two different things. As for the AAA business:

Gamasutra on AAA titles

"A game wanting to become an AAA needs to belong to a broad market, and appeal to a lot of different people across age and gender groups. Some speakers mentioned just sales as the unique characteristic of these titles, but most argued that achieving high sales is contradictory with a niche market approach.

Another aspect all experts mentioned is the idea of the perfect craft: AAA titles have a level of polish and aesthetic completion that conveys a large team, working with a clear audio-visual direction. The same way movie blockbusters should have great visual and audio effects, spectacular shots and great characters, AAA games are expected to be perfect in their technical and artistic execution. As a corollary of this, AAA titles should be not only playable, but fully enjoyable within the first five minutes of play time. Mass audiences do not want to wait forever while the game builds up its entertainment value: the game must be self-explanatory, with fun value appearing real quick to avoid casual gamers from bailing out.

Once all these issues are sorted out, all that a game needs to become an AAA title is a decent amount of marketing and hype. All experts coincided that games, like movies, need marketing force to reach mass audiences. "

Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself.

I am.

 

[Imbecile]

Ehnk. Developers cant really win. Either its a rush job with cut features, or its pointlessly polished and needs to be released NIOUW!!

Thats why gamers get pissed off with hype. Its not the marketing itself that's a problem. It just means that gamers are given more time to get disillusioned and start whinging, whether the game has been heavily marketed, or the gamer is simply aware of the game for a long time.

 

[Melcar]

The Juice don't want AOD to come out. There better be a God damn Linux binary.

 

[Double Ogre]

First, 5 years part-time for 4 people who learn the trade as they go along is neither astronomical nor embarrassing. Second, neither Fallout nor Arcanum were AAA titles. Third, the number of people I listed doesn't include sound, voice-over, QA, publishing, and such. Each team had about 20 designers/programmers and 20 artists. A game should look good, should it not? Good art design a-la Fallout and OMG!Crysis!Orgasm! are two different things.

lolwat

[Leon] We figured that we had about 2.5 full time artists for the duration of the game
[Leon] compared to every other games 15

 

[Vault Dweller]

I counted animators as artists to keep things simple.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/a ... ra/credits

Animation: Steve Arguello, Taron Baysal, Mike Bozulich, Jeremy Cook, Brandon Davis, Domenic DiGiorgio, David Ebner, Jeff Goldman, Trevor Harder, Asier Hernáez Lavina, Noel McGinn, Akira Orikasa, Al Shier, Paul Taylor, Shannon Wegner, Vicki Weimer, Bill Zahn

 

[MetalCraze]

VD! Why did you fail to accurately estimate the time it would take you to perform a task you'd never attempted before?!?

You horrible mismanager you!! Putting effort into polish never pays off in the long run, look at those Blizzard 'tards and how poorly their titles sell! While innovative but unpolished titles make fantastic cartloads of cash!

Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Hey how is Scars of War going?

Also it will be fun to see if VD will turn into a new Derek Smart.

 

[Jim Cojones]

Third, the number of people I listed doesn't include sound, voice-over, QA, publishing, and such. Each team had about 20 designers/programmers and 20 artists.

That's funny because Arcanum team consisted of 12 people plus another three for additional works. Fallout had nearly 50 programmers, designers and artists but work of almost half of them is listed as additional and for the first year of production there were no more than three people working on the game (Fallout took three years to make. For the first six months, it was just me (Tim Cain). For the next six months, it was me, a scripter and an artist.). Not that this means you had as much work hours to make AoD as Troika and Interplay had but your estimations were hugely exaggerated.

 

[Wyrmlord]

But you're not making a AAA title.

Neither Fallout nor Arcanum were AAA titles, whatever that means.

The difference between AoD and Fallout is that AoD does not have Tony Shaloub, Ron Perlman, Tony Jay, and other well paid celebrities in the process, or even big composers like Mark Morgan. :D

How about we define that as AAA?

Also, take as much time as you want on this game? It's your product; you have no accountability to others, apart from the money you seek to earn from them. It's business and it is YOUR business.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Third, the number of people I listed doesn't include sound, voice-over, QA, publishing, and such. Each team had about 20 designers/programmers and 20 artists.

That's funny because Arcanum team consisted of 12 people plus another three for additional works. Fallout had nearly 50 programmers, designers and artists but work of almost half of them is listed as additional and for the first year of production there were no more than three people working on the game (Fallout took three years to make. For the first six months, it was just me (Tim Cain). For the next six months, it was me, a scripter and an artist.). Not that this means you had as much work hours to make AoD as Troika and Interplay had but your estimations were hugely exaggerated.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/a ... ra/credits

Sounds like a lot more than 12. Anyway, assuming that Mobygames data is incorrect and that some wiki knows better, 12 experienced people working full time for 3 years will accomplish a lot more than 4 noobs working part time for 5 years.

 

[Jim Cojones]

The info on the wiki is an exact quote from the Arcanum manual.

12 experienced people working full time for 3 years will accomplish a lot more than 4 noobs working part time for 5 years.

I never claimed it's not true.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But you're not making a AAA title.

Neither Fallout nor Arcanum were AAA titles, whatever that means.

The difference between AoD and Fallout is that AoD does not have Tony Shaloub, Ron Perlman, Tony Jay, and other well paid celebrities in the process, or even big composers like Mark Morgan. :D

How about we define that as AAA?

I agree with Gamasutra. AAA is about selling more than a million copies, which means making a game that has:

- a strong visual appeal. Simply watching this game is as awesome (or even better!) as playing it.
- massmarket-friendly. Very friendly. You must want this game even if you hate the genre - aka the Oblivion effect. "I love Oblivion even though I hate RPGs!!!"
- multi million dollars marketing budget

Since Fallout was basically a sleeper hit - wait, this stupid game has actually sold something? awesome! - which sold a few hundred k copies, I doubt it can be considered a AAA game. Same goes for Arcanum, which was released 5 years later but looked worse than Fallout.

Heavenly sword is a perfect example of a AAA game. It was designed to sell. The marketing campaign was insane. The ads were everywhere. I watched at least 50 commercials, which finally got to me - wow, these graphics are something else, I sure would like to watch this game! - and I bought this 8-hour long wonder game.

 

[Double Ogre]

Same goes for Arcanum, which was released 5 years later but looked worse than Fallout..

You know what, VD, you're a total loony.

I guess, I should stop reading these threads.