AOD Release Date and the nature of Indie Projects

[Wyrmlord]

Heavenly Sword was 8 hours?

I thought Heavenly Sword was supposedly a notoriously short game, but 8 hours is only as long as any typically short game out there.

 

[Barrow_Bug]

Wait, doesn't that mean you have a PS3? But isn't playing consoles a sin? :D

 

[Silellak]

Dear lord, AoD-related threads really bring out the whiniest cunts in the Codex.

 

[Saxon1974]

You'll be able to order a professionally done boxed edition and we'll ship it anywhere you want.

IF this game ships with a nice box with cool artwork, manual and cloth map type goodies, if the game is good heck I might buy 2 or 3 copies....

I feel for you VD, making a large quality RPG is an insane amount of work. I work as a system analyst in my day job and have programming experience and I started creating my own RPG just to see if I could get anywhere with it.

I learned in that time just how much work it is, I don't think the average person who has not actually made an honest attempt to make one has any idea how much effort it is. Especially part time.

Good luck to you, Im rooting for your game...

 

[obediah]

I haven't seen evidence of laziness, but AoD has certainly been an unorganized clusterfuck of game development.

Proof?

Two giant graphics overhauls, both made when the game was otherwise ready for testing and polish. Either 1) You really have set the game back 4 years over graphics or 2) The game wasn't as close to release as you believed in 2005 or 2007.

Neither case is acceptable in anything other than a hobby project with no accountability. 2 isn't such a big deal, except why should we believe that you have a better handle on things now than in 2007 or 2005?

1 is a giant clusterfuck - chasing the dragon. The new screenshots are better, but far from good. And I imagine they look like total ass if you increase them beyond postage stamp resolution. It's not even 16:10 for fucks sake (which we've all had for years now), and we'll all be forced into 16:9 before long.

But that's to be expected in a first time effort.

Unlike what? Gothic 3? KOTOR 2? ToEE? Bloodlines?

Well I certainly hold those projects to much higher expectations, but you can't honestly compare AoD to any of them. There's a difference between the 80/20 rule and the 4000/10 rule.

I just hope you sometimes take a break from making excuses for your mistakes...

I do learn from my mistakes, but I'm curious to know what mistakes you are referring to.

Every estimate you've ever made about releasing the game/demo? You're already at 200% of your estimated time for the demo that you made at the end of 2008. After three years of blown guesses at the full game I would have liked to seen a more accurate estimate for a combat demo.

It would be a entirely different ball game if you had said "AoD will take about 20,000 hours" at the beginning.

I don't think such things can be predicted.

Of course they can! Anything but the smallest project is better served by a probability distribution than a date. But if you have any interest at all in doing this for a living, you can't just start working on a game and hope you finish it before you die of old age.

I don't think Blizzard, for example, can estimate the time it takes to make a game.

Wow! You can bet your ass Blizzard games have budgets and schedules. "When it's done" is a great interview question, but if that was their project management system they would have folded (for keepers) long ago.

They don't count out $5M and set a firm timer for 4.5 years and then release no matter what. But they have a schedule and budget from the beginning and they evaluate and revise it throughout the project. If it's over budget and behind schedule at 2.5 years, they are already making adjustments and tough decisions. How much and how they polish (i.e balance vs cut) is definitely affected by their finances and schedule.

Like any art, it's a "trial-n-error" business. You do something, take a step back and look. If you like it, you move on. If not, you try again.

You hire people with design experience to limit the trial-n-error. You also do the vast majority of your trial-n-error as prototypes so that you can quickly and cheaply work through alternatives. If you want to completely scrap the engine 3 months before release, then you have very long and very uncomfortable meetings. People probably get fired or start working 90 hours a week.

Blizzard worked on the "warcraft in space" Starcraft version for awhile, then scrapped everything and started again. Etc, etc, etc. The examples are too numerous too mention them all

I respect Blizzard for respecting their name enough to drop a bad game rather than dumping it on the market. But something like ghost was an exception for them, and there were long unpleasant meetings, and heads rolled.

If you look at the development of Starcraft, it was reasonably efficient. They used the warcraft engine to prototype their original idea quickly, and then processed the criticisms. At one point they decided they needed 2 months to revamp the warcraft engine, and they spent 2 months on it.
And from what I can find, by they I mean Bob Fitch in the early stages.

but I'm sure that you would have done a much better job due to your superior organizational skills and foresight abilities.

Did you steal that from the fanboi quote thread? I don't have to be better than anyone at Blizzard to see the lack of management behind AoD.

From our vantage point, you've never been closer to releasing AoD than you were before you switched to 3D.

I really doubt that you have enough info to make these assumptions.

It's not an assumption, it's an inference. And by definition I have enough information to make an inference from my vantage point. The point is that at many points you gave estimates less than I think you would give now. Either you didn't have a handle on your project at each of those points, or you have been inexplicably stringing us along.

But it's a horribly mismanaged software project. That's a given undertaking such a large project with so little experience. Preventing such projects is the most challenging part of my job, so I can't help but give (unwanted) criticisms.

Constructive criticism, no matter how painful, is always welcome. Unfortunately, instead of explaining your position and pointing out specific mistakes, you prefer to go with generic statement like "it's a horribly mismanaged software project. I know, because it's my job". If it is your job, I'd like to learn from you, but you don't give me much to work with, do you?

I gave my constructive criticisms 3-4 years ago, and we discussed them reasonably civil-like if I remember. I guess we could dig them up and try again with more profanity, but I assume neither of us would change our stance.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wait, doesn't that mean you have a PS3? But isn't playing consoles a sin? :D

[excuse] I have kids.

Btw, is the Valkyria Chronicles any good?

Same goes for Arcanum, which was released 5 years later but looked worse than Fallout..

You know what, VD, you're a total loony.

I guess, I should stop reading these threads.

At best it looks the same. The interface is bad. The character models are so-so. Overall, Arcanum's graphics were never a strong point and I honestly think that Fallout looked and aged much better.

 

[1eyedking]

Just let them work, motherfuckers. We'll pirate their game and judge them in due time :twisted:

 

[Oarfish]

Btw, is the Valkyria Chronicles any good?

Yeah, really rather good if you can handle the anime styling and click over the flower picking romance scenes.

Get demons souls via import too if you can, its a superb ARPG.

 

[Melcar]

Just let them work, motherfuckers. We'll pirate their game and judge them in due time :twisted:

Yeah. We now got VD posting in this shitty thread instead of him working on the damn game. Thanks a lot fuckers.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Two giant graphics overhauls, both made when the game was otherwise ready for testing and polish. Either 1) You really have set the game back 4 years over graphics or 2) The game wasn't as close to release as you believed in 2005 or 2007. Neither case is acceptable in anything other than a hobby project with no accountability.

Neither case is acceptable? I gave you the Starcraft example in the previous post.

Since when Blizzard is a hobby house with no accountability?

Other notable examples are Borderlands' art style change, Starcraft 2 visual changes, Bioware going to Lucas Arts and getting permission to remove the word count and start from scratch, etc.

The reason for the changes were explained. The original 2D graphics were not getting a fighting chance. The game in that state would have sold no more than a hundred copies. We had to upgrade, which immediately attracted more attention and improved the reaction. The second overhaul was due to Oscar's abilities. Obviously, the game looks much better now. Obviously, we couldn't have expected to find a person of Oscar's caliber (skills, dedication, self-learning, work ethics, etc) when we started the project. While Oscar was working on graphics, Nick and I were working on our respective areas, so it's not time wasted.

If a good portrait artist shows up tomorrow, I'll take extra time to do 30-40 portraits and ask Oscar to change the interface to fit them in. Why? Because I didn't find a good artist before and I think that good portraits will improve the game. My point is that indie development is very different from commercial projects with large budgets. You get what you can, when you can. If you're lucky enough.

The new screenshots are better, but far from good.

In your opinion.

And I imagine they look like total ass if you increase them beyond postage stamp resolution.

It's statements like this that make you sound less "I just offer my constructive criticism" and more "this game raped my dog; now it's personal!"

Well I certainly hold those projects to much higher expectations, but you can't honestly compare AoD to any of them. There's a difference between the 80/20 rule and the 4000/10 rule.

I'm sure you know better.

Every estimate you've ever made about releasing the game/demo? You're already at 200% of your estimated time for the demo that you made at the end of 2008. After three years of blown guesses at the full game I would have liked to seen a more accurate estimate for a combat demo.

No arguing here. I've failed to estimate release time correctly several times. I should not have said anything about the demo before it was ready. What else?

I don't think such things can be predicted.

Of course they can!

Which is why 90% of games are never shipped on time and are constantly delayed.

I don't think Blizzard, for example, can estimate the time it takes to make a game.

Wow! You can bet your ass Blizzard games have budgets and schedules. "When it's done" is a great interview question, but if that was their project management system they would have folded (for keepers) long ago.

They haven't folded because they take time to make quality games and aren't shy about canceling projects that fail to meet their criteria (WC Adventures, Ghost).

If it's over budget and behind schedule at 2.5 years, they are already making adjustments and tough decisions.

Like? I know that you would never make a statement you can't support with facts, so what tough decisions Blizzard made with SC2, for example?

Like any art, it's a "trial-n-error" business. You do something, take a step back and look. If you like it, you move on. If not, you try again.

You hire people with design experience to limit the trial-n-error.

A) You hire people with design experience? Is that what you said? You hire experienced people to work for 2 years for nothing but a promise? And of course, considering that hardcore RPGs are a tiny niche within a small niche, I'm surprised why my recruiting efforts weren't more successful.

B) Tell that to Blizzard. They made shiny SC2 models and turned out that people aren't crazy about them, so they had to change them.

Did you steal that from the fanboi quote thread? I don't have to be better than anyone at Blizzard to see the lack of management behind AoD.

People often see what they want to see. The question is why.

 

[shihonage]

I don't understand why everyone is on VD's case. Is it because he has a real job and refuses to sacrifice his salary and benefits in order to work on AoD ?

Also, Arcanum IS uglier than Fallout.

 

[Melcar]

I don't understand why everyone is on VD's case. ..

Because it's The Codex. Can we get a demo now please? How about now?

 

[Silellak]

Anyone else think Arcanum's character models look strangely similar to Ultima 8's? They both have the same weird vibe...

vs.

They both have that weird "faceless NPC sprites with black outlines" thing going for them. Arcanum's just higher res.

...no, there's not really any point to this post. Just something I found interesting. You can just pretend I bitched about VD and AoD, if it makes you feel better.

 

[bhlaab]

Who cares when it comes out or how long it's taking? All that matters is that it does at some point, and that it's good when it finally hits.

The secons the game comes out, you'll get over the wait immediately (unless the game sucks)

 

[luckyb0y]

Neither case is acceptable in anything other than a hobby project with no accountability.

Er, isn't AoD a hobby project? If it sells then mybe Iron Tower will turn into legitimate bussiness, until then it is a hobby project with no accountability.

I don't really get why people bitch so much. Why don't you try doing something you weren't trained to do and see how it goes? If you're a programmer go build a house. A builder? Try running a grocery store. Isn't it obvious that it takes so long because people learn the trade as they go? Look at Oscar's first feeble attempts at interface and compare it to recent his recent works. Fallout, Arcanum etc were made by people that already done a few games before. 5+ years development time is actually 5+ years training and development. Sure mistakes were made, it's only to be expected.

 

[Jaesun]

Anyone else think Arcanum's character models look strangely similar to Ultima 8's? They both have the same weird vibe....

The very first time I played Arcanum, I also looked at the characters and the first thing to come to mind was Ultima VIII.

 

[Melcar]

How about now?

 

[Forest Dweller]

Wait, doesn't that mean you have a PS3? But isn't playing consoles a sin? :D

No, get with the crowd. Most of us own consoles and can enjoy a good console game when it comes out just as much as the next guy. It's when developers try to appeal to both groups that we get pissed off.

Yeah. We now got VD posting in this shitty thread instead of him working on the damn game. Thanks a lot fuckers.

Yeah I've often wondered how much posting on the Codex/ITS forums has taken away from working on the game.

 

[betamin]

No le den bola muchachos, metanle pilas.

 

[MLMarkland]

Anyone who is on VD's case is an idiot.

Anyone who is using references to project management methods and standards in relation to AoD vs. funded development is ignoring an obvious fact.

5 years of part-time development for a single individual, even if it is aggressively budgeted at 33% (13.33 hours of labor a week) is the equivalent of 1.66 years of work.

So if you take a team of 5 working part-time for 5 years, that means you've got 8.3 years of labor. These guys have never made a game before so the first year worth of labor is learning what to do and the last year is debugging and quality assurance (a wildly optimistic estimate).

Even a narrowly scoped expansion pack generally takes a team of 10 developers working for the better part of a year and that's re-using art assets, technology, designs, interfaces, audio, etc.

So in the funded environment, you've got 10 man-years of development -- 20% more than 5 people working part time for 5 years, with professional support and resources, and working on a project of smaller scope.

Are you as efficient at home as in an office? What about the hardware? Is the dev team working on top of the line equipmnt? Are they using Perforce for version control or something else? Do they have a stable art pipeline that can last years? What about QA?

I look forward to AoD.

Anyone complaining about their progress doesn't have a clue about game development.

 

[Melcar]

Now?

 

[Elhoim]

No le den bola muchachos, metanle pilas.

Mucha bola no les doy, pero calienta un poco que te traten de vago cuando te rompés el culo laburando todo el día, haciendo el trabajo de fácil 5 personas (modelar, texturar, diseñar e implementar niveles, entre otras cosas).

 

[Melcar]

Chingados huevones es lo que son.

 

[OSK]

¿Dónde está el baño?

 

[Mantiis]

Btw, is the Valkyria Chronicles any good?

If it is not the best game on the PS3 it is easily the best exclusive on the PS3. The story is a bit so so and the interaction from the selectable squad (ie not the core cast) is non existent but the game part itself is really really good. It is a shame that the AI isn't more punishing, I made some really stupid decisions in my first play through and I did not get spanked.

Also the game didn't sell well so if you want to see more turn based strategy buy it.