AOD Release Date and the nature of Indie Projects

[Elhoim]

¿Dónde está el baño?

Al fondo a la derecha.

 

[Barrow_Bug]

This is not RPG Espanol, you crazy fucks.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Even though I do think VD and crew could do better at moving along in one certain area (the writing discussions; it's similar to Fallout 1, which is good for a game like AoD, screw everyone who says elsewise), I don't really have a problem with them polishing the engine, working over mechanics, and expanding quests. If they decide to go full-time into game development, AoD will likely be the only title in which they have the luxury of time. Plus, Ninja Gaiden (Black) took 7-8 years of development time, swapped the engine midway through, had incredibly rigorous testing, and was the best damn action game ever made. If Iron Tower's efforts mirror Itagaki and crew's, AoD will be one hell of an RPG.

Just as long as you release it before the real-world apocalypse I'm happy.

 

[thesheeep]

AoD - 4 people, 5 years part time, 20,000 hours. Do I really have to explain it? Am I some kinda genius for being able to figure out that 4 people working in their spare time will do a lot less than 50+ people working full time and often overtime? Not to mention things like years of experience, budgets, getting paid and such.

You lazy bastards!

 

[Burning Bridges]

Who cares when it comes out or how long it's taking? All that matters is that it does at some point, and that it's good when it finally hits.

The secons the game comes out, you'll get over the wait immediately (unless the game sucks)

and unless you died in the meantime, that is

 

[Talby]

Damn it VD, release the game already. The mayor's all over my ass on this one.

 

[Barrow_Bug]

Damn it VD, release the game already. The mayor's all over my ass on this one.

Wow, another Aussie. I count three. How many is there?

 

[Castanova]

Anyone who is on VD's case is an idiot.

You're making the assumption that AoD is similar to an expansion pack. An expansion pack has a built-in audience, a professional marketing campaign, mainstream reviewer coverage, etc etc etc. From a professional project management perspective, spending 6 years on a project that will sell maybe a thousand copies is batshit insane. Obviously, VD will say "but but but but it's just a hobby and if I sell any copies that's just icing on the cake!" I would hope he says that anyway because if the hope is to build a profitable business the prospects aren't looking good.

Summary: comparing development time for a tiny niche game on a one to one basis with development time for a professional expansion pack - ur doin it rong.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I look forward to AoD.

Thanks.

Anyone complaining about their progress doesn't have a clue about game development.

My sentiments exactly.

Anyone who is on VD's case is an idiot.

You're making the assumption that AoD is similar to an expansion pack.

He isn't.

An expansion pack has a built-in audience, a professional marketing campaign, mainstream reviewer coverage, etc etc etc.

What has that gotta do with anything? Have we stopped criticizing VD for mismanagement and moved to complaining about poor financial prospects?

From a professional project management perspective, spending 6 years on a project that will sell maybe a thousand copies is batshit insane.

From a what now? I strongly suggest re-reading Markland's post.

Obviously, VD will say "but but but but it's just a hobby and if I sell any copies that's just icing on the cake!" I would hope he says that anyway because if the hope is to build a profitable business the prospects aren't looking good.

Actually, I won't say it. I'll say that it's not just a hobby and that we do hope to sell enough copies to justify working on another game, which is exactly why we're taking our time to do it right.

Summary: comparing development time for a tiny niche game on a one to one basis with development time for a professional expansion pack - ur doin it rong.

Selective reading - ur doing it rong.

 

[St. Toxic]

Indie teams shouldn't do projects bigger than 1-2 years tops. I mean, with all that time wasted on making a more complex game, you can't really expect it to be successful in any way that matters so you might as well throw in the towel. AoD is a classic example of mismanagment; if VD had any business sense he'd have released it 4 years ago no matter what state it was in.

 

[Melcar]

This is not RPG Espanol, you crazy fucks.

Callate imbécil.

So... the demo out?

 

[Castanova]

Indie teams shouldn't do projects bigger than 1-2 years tops.

Sarcastic response misses the point. Replace "indie teams" with "indie niche title teams" and you're getting somewhere useful. There's a reason Vogel releases so many titles and, I assure you, it's not due to a lack of standards regarding polish. Lack of perspective regarding scope vs. sales prospects is definitely mismanagement. What other category would you like to put it in to deflect the argument?

 

[inwoker]

This thread:
Banal, Shit, Boring.

VD, best of luck in your project. If you dare not to release it I'll make you suffer.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

The times I have seen people blasting off about games being released early....so many times. It is often difficult to remember any recent games that have not needed more time. One or two I suppose.

Yet here we are, reading the brilliant observations of people that have screamed about buggy, undercooked games a million times.

The reason they are whining is because they want to play the game. They also believe that they can pressure the game to be released by being narky, silly, and screaming like a kid that wants an ice cream. If the game was unfinished, they would then scream about it. If the game is brilliant and finished, they will forget about this like a kid that is given said ice cream: The crying magically stops. Straight away.

You have seen it on every game forum. The predicters, the armchair salesmen, the doomsayers coming out with all kinds of pseudo-advice on how the game will fail because, in their opinion, it is taking too long. If the game comes out, and is well done, these clowns forget all of their drivel, as does everyone else, and life goes on.

VD, let me give you some advice. Stop listening, stop reading, go back and have fun working on AoD. You will never, never get it through to the kids here. When the game is ready, release it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There's a reason Vogel releases so many titles and, I assure you, it's not due to a lack of standards regarding polish.

Vogel has a starving Mac market, an established customer base, and a one-man operation, basically. His games sell several thousand copies, which is enough to support one guy, but not enough to support 4-5 guys.

Lack of perspective regarding scope vs. sales prospects is definitely mismanagement.

What I've learned in two decades of "following games" is that taking time to do it right is an important step. Blizzard demonstrated it many times, yet most companies refuse to take notes and insist on fast development cycles and "in 5 years we can make 3 games!" mentality.

What I've learned in sales is that you have to have a good product. Quality is the last thing you want to fuck with if you're planning to stick around for awhile.

What other category would you like to put it in to deflect the argument?

What argument? Your assumption that the game wouldn't sell well?

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, let me give you some advice. Stop listening, stop reading, go back and have fun working on AoD. You will never, never get it through to the kids here. When the game is ready, release it.

That's the plan.

 

[MLMarkland]

Anyone who is on VD's case is an idiot.

You're making the assumption that AoD is similar to an expansion pack. An expansion pack has a built-in audience, a professional marketing campaign, mainstream reviewer coverage, etc etc etc. From a professional project management perspective, spending 6 years on a project that will sell maybe a thousand copies is batshit insane. Obviously, VD will say "but but but but it's just a hobby and if I sell any copies that's just icing on the cake!" I would hope he says that anyway because if the hope is to build a profitable business the prospects aren't looking good.

Summary: comparing development time for a tiny niche game on a one to one basis with development time for a professional expansion pack - ur doin it rong.

An analysis of the monetization of indie development efforts is not the same thing as an analysis of the feasibility of particular time frames for indie development. My commentary in the prior post focused on the latter in re AoD.

Whether it makes sense from a monetization point-of-view is an entirely different question - though the totality of circumstances surrounding AoD as known from an objective, external observer, indicates that monetization is only one of the goals of the project and possibly not the primary goal (self-expression, individual achievement, challenge, learning and fun all appear to be fundamental goals as well).

 

[1eyedking]

No le den bola muchachos, metanle pilas.

Mucha bola no les doy, pero calienta un poco que te traten de vago cuando te rompés el culo laburando todo el día, haciendo el trabajo de fácil 5 personas (modelar, texturar, diseñar e implementar niveles, entre otras cosas).

Ah, loco, castellano como Gardel manda.

Pero posta son unos rompe bolas, es prefierible que tarden banda a que salga cualquier mamarracho. Después son estos mismos los boludos que se quejan de que los juegos no salen bien cocidos. Qué se yo, la espera del AoD es dulce y amarga; por un lado me alegra el calibre y estilo del juego, pero por el otro me gustaria tenerlo ya, pero mas que nada porque hoy por hoy no hay un solo RPG decente.

He dicho!

 

[Kaiserin]

Let's make one more comparison to Blizzard for good measure now. I'm sure that they have everything to do with this.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, they certainly set a good example. Why ignore it?

 

[Melcar]

Pero, pero, lo quiero ahora mismo. Coño, que lo termine así como esta. Aunque sea una miarda, sera una miarda del tipo bueno, y cuando pasen unos años estaremos diciendo "remember that AOD game? That was some good shit. Flawed, but good". Son las pequeñas imperfecciones lo que hacen el juego bueno.
Por el tiempo que esta tardando, cuando salga mas vale que sea mejor que una mamada de verga.

 

[inwoker]

Блять какого хуя вы пишете на испанском?

 

[Black_Willow]

Nie możecie pisać w jakimś normalnym języku?

 

[1eyedking]

Pero, pero, lo quiero ahora mismo. Coño, que lo termine así como esta. Aunque sea una miarda, sera una miarda del tipo bueno, y cuando pasen unos años estaremos diciendo "remember that AOD game? That was some good shit. Flawed, but good". Son las pequeñas imperfecciones lo que hacen el juego bueno.
Por el tiempo que esta tardando, cuando salga mas vale que sea mejor que una mamada de verga.

Cerrá el culo que nos clavan un Arcanum!

 

[Burning Bridges]

Obviously, VD will say "but but but but it's just a hobby and if I sell any copies that's just icing on the cake!" I would hope he says that anyway because if the hope is to build a profitable business the prospects aren't looking good.

Actually, I won't say it. I'll say that it's not just a hobby and that we do hope to sell enough copies to justify working on another game, which is exactly why we're taking our time to do it right.

And I think you are right. Indie projects have a fair chance if done right (but they hardly ever are).