Are drow inherently evil? And other D&D racial restrictions that have been loosened over the years

[Alex]

Viconia worships Shar. She isn't virtuous. Lmao FFS Shar is one of the most evil human gods in D&D.

God's are not 'forced' to live anywhere. They make their own homes where they damn well want but of course you aren't going to see a good God make their base in the Abyss for obvious fukkin reasons. (snip...)

Which are...?

This is the first book that detailed the entire thing. It's AD&D 1E Manual of the Planes and covers all of the planes in D&D.

Thanks, but just to make my point clear, is there a reason why a lawful good god of crusades can't have a realm in the middle of the abyss? Volourn says gods can make their realms wherever they intend, but at least since 2nd edition, I don't think this is necessarily true. If I am not mistaken, outsiders are made from the very stuff of the planes they are born into, so such god would lack the ability to create new servants if his home was in the abyss. Since he would be surrounded by inimical deities, there would be a real danger of the god being murdered, and I think the rules for outsiders dying might apply to them as well, which would mean that their essence would be destroyed (whatever that means). In D&D, gods are powerful, but they are never all powerful; and while I might be wrong (which is why I asked Volourn to expound on what he means) no individual god is actually stronger than the planes themselves. They might sometimes escape by living in a plane which is adjacent to their alignment, or in the inner planes rather than the outer ones, but at the end of the day they still aren't greater than the whole alignment stuff.

 

[JamesDixon]

Yep. Good requires willful act and domination based spells have such limitations, you can't order someone to kill himself or order a vampire to stop drinking blood or a midnflayer to stop eating brains. I have heard that with undead is different, that you can cast control undead in a vampire and order him to walk in the sun and die but din't found a reliable information about it.

Depends on the undead really. Zombies, skeletons, and other mindless automatons will follow an order like that. Liches and other intelligent undead won't.

I looked at the Domination spell from AD&D 2E and it says that self destruction orders will always fail regardless of the type of creature.

 

[JamesDixon]

Thanks, but just to make my point clear, is there a reason why a lawful good god of crusades can't have a realm in the middle of the abyss? Volourn says gods can make their realms wherever they intend, but at least since 2nd edition, I don't think this is necessarily true. If I am not mistaken, outsiders are made from the very stuff of the planes they are born into, so such god would lack the ability to create new servants if his home was in the abyss. Since he would be surrounded by inimical deities, there would be a real danger of the god being murdered, and I think the rules for outsiders dying might apply to them as well, which would mean that their essence would be destroyed (whatever that means). In D&D, gods are powerful, but they are never all powerful; and while I might be wrong (which is why I asked Volourn to expound on what he means) no individual god is actually stronger than the planes themselves. They might sometimes escape by living in a plane which is adjacent to their alignment, or in the inner planes rather than the outer ones, but at the end of the day they still aren't greater than the whole alignment stuff.

From the AD&D 1E Manual of the Planes it implies that the planes themselves have a hard coded alignment. The cosmos has enforced the ordering like it is. Hence, why no lawful good domains within the Abyssal Planes. Basically, the rules themselves are what you presented here.

 

[Norfleet]

Implied, perhaps, but the causal ordering of this is never made clear. We don't really know if the planes are like that because the beings who live there have caused it to be that way, or because the planes were like that first and then the beings who set up shop there picked or were kicked there, or, more likely, some kind of feedback loop in which both forces act upon each other such that the environment shapes the beings who shape the environment.

Either way, the planes are just terrain. Terrain, not generally being sentient, cannot have an alignment in and of itself. This being D&D, there's probably sentient terrain somewhere in the mix, but unless the entire plane is actually a being of some kind, it can't ALL have an alignment, and it'll still be an open guess how any of this came to be.

Thanks, but just to make my point clear, is there a reason why a lawful good god of crusades can't have a realm in the middle of the abyss?

Nope. And the last time I checked on NW, there was, in fact, an outpost of angels smack in the middle of Hell, from which they go to murder demons, so presumably, the Good Guys are actively engaged in trying to introduce Freedom and Democracy to Hell, probably because they discovered oil there, since apparently Hell also had cars.

 

[JamesDixon]

Implied, perhaps, but the causal ordering of this is never made clear. We don't really know if the planes are like that because the beings who live there have caused it to be that way, or because the planes were like that first and then the beings who set up shop there picked or were kicked there, or, more likely, some kind of feedback loop in which both forces act upon each other such that the environment shapes the beings who shape the environment.

Either way, the planes are just terrain. Terrain, not generally being sentient, cannot have an alignment in and of itself. This being D&D, there's probably sentient terrain somewhere in the mix, but unless the entire plane is actually a being of some kind, it can't ALL have an alignment, and it'll still be an open guess how any of this came to be.

Thanks, but just to make my point clear, is there a reason why a lawful good god of crusades can't have a realm in the middle of the abyss?

Nope. And the last time I checked on NW, there was, in fact, an outpost of angels smack in the middle of Hell, from which they go to murder demons, so presumably, the Good Guys are actively engaged in trying to introduce Freedom and Democracy to Hell, probably they discovered oil there, since apparently Hell also had cars.

Except that the planes are arranged and made clear in AD&D 1E Manual of the Planes and in AD&D 2E Planescape Campaign Setting.

Manual of the Planes page 73: The arrangement of these planes agrees with the standard view of alignments: good and evil on opposite sides; Law and Chaos squared off against each other. In this layout, the planes have the following characteristics:

This is what Planescape Campaign Setting A Player's Guide to the Planes has to say on page 5.

Where the prime-material worlds vary by natural, technical, and magical development, and the Elemental Planes contrast by substance, the Outer Planes differ by morality. Each one is attuned to a particular alignment, and the berks and terrain within it subtly or overtly reflect that alignment.

D&D has always had the planes aligned and hard coded. Thus, no LG god can reside in one of the Nine Hells since it's a LE place.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Kindly save your shades of gray bullshit for a setting without meticulously defined character alignments.

Well, of course the ailgnments are meticulously defined: They have specific factions (gods) which uphold them. But in the end, there are only specific clusters of cultural tenets which get a group plastered along this continuum. The culture cannot logically see itself as evil, because even if they all engage in a mutually agreed upon fashion of murder, torture, deceit, and soforth, their mutual acceptance of this heinous creedo creates and orderly and cooperative society, and it would be Bad to do otherwise. Thus "For the Evulz" is something reserved for things like demons.

A civilization that is focused on Lawful Evil alignment can be orderly and cooperative (albeit often under coercion), and there is no demonstrable need for such a society to delude itself into thinking that it is good rather than evil. Perhaps a bit more questionable as to how a society, rather than a group of bandits, would operate with an evil alignment shifting away from lawful to chaotic, but this depends on how one interprets the definition of Law and Chaos, which were never as coherent in AD&D as they should have been. Every D&D/AD&D campaign setting includes at least one prominent evil society as an antagonist, so it isn't exactly a mystery as to how these are intended to operate in a fantasy world.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, look, another thread about morality in the Forgotten Realms started by the dubious nature of romancing Viconia. I haven't seen that one before. Considering the other choices are between your recently-widowed (like seriously, he isn't even cold yet) aunt and an underage loli, I'd say Bioware already decided there's no turning back when you go black. As for whether the drow are "inherently evil" - that's a moot point. The universe decides that, it's not a matter of personal or societal qualities.

 

[JamesDixon]

this depends on how one interprets the definition of Law and Chaos, which were never as coherent in AD&D

Except I'm looking at AD&D 1E & 2E DMGs. They're pretty much identical just with 2E giving a more thorough description.

1E: Law and Chaos: The opposition here is between organized groups and individuals. That is, law dictates that order and organization is necessary and desirable, while chaos holds the opposite view. Law generally supports the group as more important than the individual, while chaos promotes the individual over the group.

2E: I posted it a few pages back.

If you have anything to show the opposite I'm interested.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Well, of course the ailgnments are meticulously defined: They have specific factions (gods) which uphold them. But in the end, there are only specific clusters of cultural tenets which get a group plastered along this continuum.

No. This is a setting where your beliefs have entire planes of existence that correspond to them. Where you can't pick up a sword without being the right alignment.

This isn't a world of shades of gray, it's a world where "evil" has a definition and it's consistent and measurable.

The culture cannot logically see itself as evil, because even if they all engage in a mutually agreed upon fashion of murder, torture, deceit, and soforth, their mutual acceptance of this heinous creedo creates and orderly and cooperative society, and it would be Bad to do otherwise. Thus "For the Evulz" is something reserved for things like demons.

Again, you're wrong. Good and evil are universally measurable, and therefore almost universally defined. Not that every culture shares the exact same definition, but every culture has the ability to measure good and evil with a spell, an item or some other means.

And yes, there are people who literally kill for 'for teh evils'. Worshipers of evil deities, for example. Though in Chaotic Evil characters, killing for fun or because they despise the weak would probably be more common, or Neutral or Lawful Evil characters killing for personal motives.

Sure, you can have differing perspectives, you can have people with good alignments that make the wrong decisions for the "right" reasons or vice versa, but their alignment is real. It's not just a nebulous concept. That's baked into the setting. There is good, there is evil, and both can be measured.

And this is a good thing. It keeps the classical good vs evil concepts that are integral to much of fantasy, and it also stops players from either moral fagging about the ethics of killing goblinos, or else saying "nuh, uh! I really can wield the Holy Sword even though I murderhobo'd my way through that last village!"

There's an alignment thread where Zed Duke of Banville posted a bunch of great Gygax quotes on it, and others posted various snippets from 2E and elsewhere about it.

 

[Volourn]

Dude Thats the point. No good god would choose to establish a realm. It is suicidal even for a God but, there is no mystical power forcefully stopping them. It is like people avoid living in the ghettos. Nothing stopping them doing so... but if you can avoid them, you will avoid them. Why would Tyr dukkin choose to live in the Abyss But, hey a handling, I'll go live in the orc village lmao

And, yes, the planes do have a moral influence mostly on mortals but even immortals can be shockingly tainted by them in subtle ways. Just look at the different planes and who lives there

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Either way, the planes are just terrain. Terrain, not generally being sentient, cannot have an alignment in and of itself.

You need to go back and play Planescape, either Torment or PnP.

From the Planescape Campaign Setting - Sigil and Beyond:

Here's the real chant, and pay attention, berk: All this attention to ideology is important because it can actually cause the borders of the planes to change! If enough folks in a town hold a belief contrary to the rest of their plane, that town's going to drift away to another plane, slipping from the grasp of one reality to join another. To put it another way, if enough folks outside a power's realm start subscribing to that power's beliefs, then its realm's going to expand to include them.
That means anywhere on the Outer Planes could conceivably become part of somewhere else. What a sod believes in, then — law, chaos, good, and evil - has a direct influence on the multiverse. Philosophy is more than just talk, philosophy is action.
Hence, the Outer Planes are the site of an endless struggle for the hearts and minds of everyone on them.
Think about it, berk. The Blood War is more than a mindless battle of extermination between fiends. It's a war to establish a single, united Lower Plane. To a fiend's way of thinking, those that can't be persuaded to its point of view must be eliminated, put in the dead-book, and so the War rages on. In the same vein, the factions in Sigil aren't there just because it's convenient; they're each trying to sway the city to their point of view. If they do, the whole Cage'll vanish off to some other plane. (That's why the Lady of Pain isn't just a figure - she's Sigil's anchor against the rest of the multiverse.)
All of this means something to the player characters, too. It means their actions can sometimes change the face of the planes. By getting involved with the philosophical politics — for instance, by either thwarting or supporting a faction's coup in a border town - they might keep that burg from the brink or give it the final push over the edge, sending it to another plane. When they choose, they make a difference a person can see and know.

Remember in PST: entire areas can slide into other planes. Curst can slide into Carceri. The terrain does have alignment, or rather, it's influenced by the alignments of those who live there. So, in effect, the true terrain is the alignment.

In Planescape, you are "living philosophy". Belief has a measurable effect on the world around you. And the world around you is belief, to a degree.

 

[Norfleet]

Look, if the terrain is actively terraformed by the attitudes of the beings that inhabit it, then the terrain is just an unaligned pudding. Rather like real terrain to some degree, really. If enough people in your town believe in Industrialism instead of Environmentalism, you get Chinese Death Cloud Land. The fact that terrain is malleable in this way weakens the argument of it having intrinsic alignment.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Look, if the terrain is actively terraformed by the attitudes of the beings that inhabit it, then the terrain is just an unaligned pudding. Rather like real terrain to some degree, really.

Real terrain doesn't travel to another dimension based on belief. I wish it did. We'd all be rid of shitholes like California overnight.

If enough people in your town believe in Industrialism instead of Environmentalism, you get Chinese Death Cloud Land. The fact that terrain is malleable in this way weakens the argument of it having intrinsic alignment.

You don't get it. They're not simply changing, they're falling into another plane of existence. The planes have intrinsic alignment. If they didn't, alignments wouldn't gravitate to them. Gate towns like Curst would simply become evil right where they are in the Outlands, not slip into Carceri.

As a blood might guess, Bedlam's just about turned stag on the Outlands. Hrava's only got to spread his madness a little farther and the whole place'll slide through the gate and merge with Pandemonium.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

She's a creature of a heinously evil race who worships dark gods and is literally evil. She's an exact sterotype of drow and why they deserve to be killed on site.

There is little to no rational or moral reason for any PC to interfere with the Flaming Fist enforcer. Cool NPC though.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

There is little to no rational or moral reason for any PC to interfere with the Flaming Fist enforcer

Chaotic Good, or just plain Chaotic. Evil characters might also see her as a potentially useful tool ally.

The flaming fist mercenary is going to kill her. If you respect his authority, you should let her die. If you don't, well, then you probably want to question his motives. The game doesn't actually let you do this, but I suspect he'd brook no questions anyway and you'd end up sentenced regardless.

The player is presented with a choice: take a lawful action and trust in authority or buck the authority and refuse to let a woman get murdered in front of them, whatever their reasons.

Not the best roleplaying choice, but there you have it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The game doesn't actually let you do this,

It does. Cast charm on him.
She's evil, there's no argument about it. She's wanted for killing a farmer, his wife, and his children, something she won't tell you herself.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

There is little to no rational or moral reason for any PC to interfere with the Flaming Fist enforcer

Chaotic Good, or just plain Chaotic. Evil characters might also see her as a potentially useful tool ally.

The flaming fist mercenary is going to kill her. If you respect his authority, you should let her die. If you don't, well, then you probably want to question his motives. The game doesn't actually let you do this, but I suspect he'd brook no questions anyway and you'd end up sentenced regardless.

The player is presented with a choice: take a lawful action and trust in authority or buck the authority and refuse to let a woman get murdered in front of them, whatever their reasons.

Not the best roleplaying choice, but there you have it.

The Flaming Fist enforcer tells you in his opening line that she is a "dark elf" wanted for murder. Outside of being ignorant of the setting, there is zero rational basis for siding with the drow. Taking a drow in the party would be no different than having a monster in tow. Killing an agent of a powerful regional authority with no obvious gain is even dumber. She's a quintessential evil drow. Born to evil (they are literally cursed), participated in a heinously evil society for potentially hundreds of years as a devotee of a sinister god. Her evil can be directly measured. Guess what? She's an evil monster.

I'm not saying she isn't a cool NPC. She's great, and I've had her in my party many times. What I'm saying is, trying to rationalize intervening on her behalf is dumb. Whenever this topic comes up, it's just the OP announcing what a sad simp they are.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

The game doesn't actually let you do this,

It does. Cast charm on him.
She's evil, there's no argument about it. She's wanted for killing a farmer, his wife, and his children, something she won't tell you herself.

Wow. I either didn’t know about the charm thing or completely forgot it. Not sure if this is intentional behavior or some leftover junk dialog they never actually bothered to clean up.

That is the crime she’s accused of, but there’s still no proof provided by him, and no way to question him further that I see.

Although the fact that you have to cast charm, probably shows how he doesn’t want to answer questions. A party without a charm spell would be SOL, and either need to make a lawful or a chaotic choice.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The game doesn't actually let you do this,

It does. Cast charm on him.
She's evil, there's no argument about it. She's wanted for killing a farmer, his wife, and his children, something she won't tell you herself.

Wow. I either didn’t know about the charm thing or completely forgot it. Not sure if this is intentional behavior or some leftover junk dialog they never actually bothered to clean up.

That is the crime she’s accused of, but there’s still no proof provided by him, and no way to question him further that I see.

Although the fact that you have to cast charm, probably shows how he doesn’t want to answer questions. A party without a charm spell would be SOL, and either need to make a lawful or a chaotic choice.

nearly all npcs in BG1 have charm interaction
I thought it was commonly known until I made a thread about it here and a lot of people didn't know

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...rmation-from-npcs-is-so-underutilized.128491/

if you charm certain NPCs you basically get the plot of the entire story before even entering baldur's gate

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Outside of being ignorant of the setting, there is zero rational basis for siding with the drow.

Even in the setting, people can be wrong, foolish or idealistic. Notice that Minsc is chaotic good and also a complete moron.

The dialog line to accept her is specifically “We don’t judge someone by their race, we’ll take you in.”

Pretty clear that you’re willfully ignoring what she is, for whatever reason. Idealism, greed, lust - up to you.

Taking a drow in the party would be no different than having a monster in tow.

Which is why there’s a rep penalty.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

nearly all npcs in BG1 have charm interaction
I thought it was commonly known until I made a thread about it here and a lot of people didn't know

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...rmation-from-npcs-is-so-underutilized.128491/

if you charm certain NPCs you basically get the plot of the entire story before even entering baldur's gate

Thanks for that. It’s been a while since I did a play through. Nice to see there are still a few surprises waiting for me.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Thanks for that. It’s been a while since I did a play through. Nice to see there are still a few surprises waiting for me.

The game rewarded creative thinking. If you see someone with a mental illness, well, try casting heal on them. It's something I really miss in basically all new RPGs where devs would just make a dumb dialogue choice.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Outside of being ignorant of the setting, there is zero rational basis for siding with the drow.

Even in the setting, people can be wrong, foolish or idealistic. Notice that Minsc is chaotic good and also a complete moron.

I'm not saying she isn't a cool NPC. She's great, and I've had her in my party many times. What I'm saying is, trying to rationalize intervening on her behalf is dumb.

So we're in agreement.

Pretty clear that you’re willfully ignoring what she is, for whatever reason. Idealism, greed, lust - up to you.

That's pure projection. Murder a legitimate official of a regional power by saving a random creature from a race born evil, is evil, has participated in evil for a couple of centuries while being a devotee to a heinously evil god on the off chance something is amiss. Then take this storybook monster under wing? I know exactly what she is, which is why this topic is so dumb. The topic is, are drow inherently evil? The answer is, YES. They're literally cursed to it by birth and claimed by an evil goddess that lords over them to constantly commit evil. Outside of roleplaying a CE psychopath, the only reason for a player to intervene is "Hrm, let's see what happens". If the Flaming Fist were chasing down a demon or ghoul, the moral scenario would be identical.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

That's pure projection.

It's not. It's the dialog choice. And I left the reasoning up to you.

It literally says you're not going to judge her for her race. How else do you interpret “We don’t judge someone by their race, we’ll take you in.”?

I know exactly what she is, which is why this topic is so dumb. The topic is, are drow inherently evil? The answer is, YES. They're literally cursed to it by birth and claimed by an evil goddess that lords over them to constantly commit evil. Outside of roleplaying a CE psychopath, the only reason for a player to intervene is "Hrm, let's see what happens". If the Flaming Fist were chasing down a demon or ghoul, the moral scenario would be identical.

Everyone knows about black people too, yet you still have White BLM members.

Everyone knows what a whore is, yet people still fall in love/lust with them.

Every time a Viconia dindu nuffin irl, you have TV celebrities shedding crocodile tears.

Simps gonna simp and cucks gonna cuck. It's either role playing or people are genuinely gullible.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The problem with a drow being accused of a crime is: who else could it possibly be? Drizzt?
how many other drow do you encounter in baldur's gate? how many drow do you think are even on the surface?

there's zero arguments for a lawful neutral/lawful good character to take her at all
TN is a meme alignment, so disregarded
neutral good would inherently object to being in a party with such an evil creature
chaotic good... possibly, mostly because you lack any information from the flaming fist and could interpret it as an injustice by the law
chaotic neutral, fine, same as above but less apprehension about her being evil