Eternity Avowed Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Peachcurl]

In game lingo, lockpicking systems determined by player skill are usually not action, but puzzles.

 

[Grunker]

Why even is Carrie lead?

Because half of the people in the company tweet about representation while working at a company where everyone who ever lead something was a white male. I bet they were relieved at the fact there was someone even remotely palpatable to hand the project to who didn't have a caucasian cock

 

[Roguey]

Swen is old meat, but BG3 is new money. Other money will chase after it. Probably in a cargo cult way, without getting what made it good, but even cargo culting BG3 will result in tabletop system and tabletop pop-culture aesthetics. Its too on the nose to get it wrong.

First D:OS clone is out in early access in a couple of days https://store.steampowered.com/app/1064120/Unforetold_Witchstone/

It's an ARPG, so are we going to pretend to have standards?

"Lockpicking skill determines how many lockpicks are used, if any" is a perfectly acceptable system for any kind of RPG. They didn't put any tedious minigames into Deus Ex.

 

[whydoibother]

First D:OS clone is out in early access in a couple of days https://store.steampowered.com/app/1064120/Unforetold_Witchstone/

Yeppp, time for some Larian slop *circus music starts playing*

 

[Grunker]

Don't make me tap the sign:
>If lockpicking is determined by character skill, its an RPG system.
>If lockpicking is determined by player skill, its an action system.

what if it's determined by both

checkmate, liberals

 

[Old Hans]

I think they might be building on Grounded as well.

that's what I thought too especially when they weapon swapped to the 2 handed axe and it looked like a big plastic toy straight from grounded

 

[luj1]

Why even is Carrie lead?

She is a perfect fit for this company

 

[Wesp5]

- and even VTM Bloodlines

That was only a side-quest and not the main setting and it had a nice evil feeling to it too.

 

[whydoibother]

Don't make me tap the sign:
>If lockpicking is determined by character skill, its an RPG system.
>If lockpicking is determined by player skill, its an action system.

what if it's determined by both

checkmate, liberals

Action system. One drop rule, if a very good player can make a character do something that character is completely unskilled at, then its an action game mechanic.

 

[whydoibother]

- and even VTM Bloodlines

That was only a side-quest and not the main setting and it had a nice evil feeling to it too.

It also had a kind of americana new age religion thing going, so you get rural redneck representation in your urban game.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Excellent summary, except you barely mention expectations about faction states and quest design.

What do you mean by "faction states" though? For quest design complexity - who knows really. I'm going off of what I've seen in Deadfire and TOW, so anyone is free to speculate. I played TOW up to the part where you arrive to the second planet, and then a bit more to explore the city.

Going on a tangent about systems... What we can say is a "scientifically established" principle in RPGs is that if your systems are weak, or meaningless (be awesome with blue magic spell or be awesome with green magic spell), you are constricted in how you design your quests, because the player's toolbox of skills to use to solve problems is too limited. The extreme example is Disco Elysium - the only systems present were dialogue, inventory, and skillchecks. Quest branching was next to none - who brings down the body, do you sleep in a dumpster, and what ending slides you get. If I'm missing something it's not much.

The kind of good example (and an ARPG example) is Witcher 3, where quests were engineered to include "a little bit of everything" from the systems - some talking, some haggling, some fistfighting, some riding (tactical use of horse-sprint), some combat, some "follow the red line on the screen". In the end the player is left with the feeling he used his character's "skills" to get from point A to B. Of course in Witcher 3 that was permitted by the luxury of having a fixed main character.

Imagine that Xaurip camp encounter and imagine you are the "gameplay director". You have to provide for this encounter to be challenging but fun for player builds starting from arbalests, going through estocs and greatswords, to halberds, to mace and shield, to wands, to matchlocks, to magic spells. And this is just the weapons. Let's consider the effects that armor should have on the player and all the other stuff he can equip. No fucking way Obsidian can implement and playtest all of that. It made Josh go crazy and Josh with all his faults has more brains and RPG design experience than Patel and that Paramo guy put together. They are at the stage of showing off "we have weapon sets implemented", and they are 8-9 months to release? Bitch you should be telling me how many weapons and spells you have implemented because your area designers should be busy populating areas with encounters and balancing those encounters for the existing abilities. Basically that is why I expect combat to be a huge disappointment for anyone above the "couch console gamer" level.

Yep, I was expecting that argument. But what you have there is Swen Vincke. Another dinosaur.

Swen is old meat, but BG3 is new money. Other money will chase after it. Probably in a cargo cult way, without getting what made it good, but even cargo culting BG3 will result in tabletop system and tabletop pop-culture aesthetics. Its too on the nose to get it wrong.
I think the success of that game will move capital to release another dozen tabletop system games, with varying funding and quality. So, right in this moment, its looking on the up, not dying, as you suggested. Your argument would've been solid a year ago, though. And hopefully it won't be solid in 5 years, when the diadochi come out and maybe fail.

But do you see the talent to pull off something like BG3, anywhere? I'd be happy to play a more sober, "dryer" BG3 set in the PoE setting, with main quest and C&C revolving more around politics than fantasy tripe, but such a project will never get funding even if Feargus gets Microsuits drunk on his grandfather's Scotch.

 

[Peachcurl]

- and even VTM Bloodlines

That was only a side-quest and not the main setting and it had a nice evil feeling to it too.

You are right of course.

I could nitpick and say that Vampirism itself is a mysterious plague, but I'm not going to grasp for that straw.

 

[Infinitron]

Why even is Carrie lead?

Brennecke, Sawyer, and Boyarsky were all busy or didn't want it. They need to foster new talent rather than relying on the same old people, plus they're Californian so they likely cringe at having all White guys directing games.

Avowed was Obsidian co-founder Chris Parker's game at first, but apparently he wasn't up to the task.

 

[Roguey]

Their "gameplay director" is as clueless about RPGs as anyone you can meet on the street who has played Skyrim. He lacks the vocabulary and theoretical framework when describing a game of that genre.

Paramo's work history: https://www.mobygames.com/person/390217/gabriel-paramo/credits/

New World (2021, Windows) Additional Engineering
Killer Instinct (2016, Windows Apps) Additional Programming
Strider (2014, Windows) Programmer
Killer Instinct (2013, Xbox One) Additional Programming
Battleship (2012, Xbox 360) Game Programmers
Green Lantern: Rise of the Manhunters (2011, PlayStation 3) Programmers
Amazing Adventures: The Forgotten Ruins (2008, Nintendo DS) Additional Programming
Little League World Series Baseball 2008 (2008, Nintendo DS) Programmers
Garfield's Fun Fest (2008, Nintendo DS) Programmer

Not a single RPG unless New World counts and he wasn't even on that full-time.

His presence in the project might be related to Tim Cain's "semi-retirement" status, and Tim's clashes with Carrie Patel, of which we've seen hints. In other words, Patel must be very happy to be working with him. She is just as clueless about RPGs in their "game" component. Writing CYOA is more her domain.

Also true.

When they asked about her history with roleplaying games, Patel admitted she lacked experience in the types of RPGs that were influencing Pillars of Eternity, but made up for it with her knowledge of writing other types of stories as well as playing other types of story-driven games. She got up to speed on the classics before starting at Obsidian a couple of weeks later. “I did play Planescape: Torment once I got to Obsidian, in part because I knew that was such a big touchstone for us as a company and as the Pillars team, and because it was such a groundbreaking game in terms of narrative design and storytelling in games, but I had not played Baldur’s Gate or Icewind Dale. We've always been looking for a balance in the Pillars games between hearkening back to that flavor and style, and updating it and creating our own world and story.”

Patel, like many other recent narrative designers, was a genre fiction author who moved into gaming because of the steadier paycheck by comparison.

 

[luj1]

No one is up to task because all of them are trembling bitches with 0 passion and love.

 

[Grunker]

Excellent summary, except you barely mention expectations about faction states and quest design.

What do you mean by "faction states" though?

New Vegas' quests are intervowen with the faction states/points which is in turn connected to YES MAN (though to a lesser extend that the faction interactions themselves).

More broadly, I was saying that New Vegas was saved for me due to the way faction interaction and some of the best quests were designed. Expecting the rest of the game to be as you described, these things are about the only thing I can see Obsidian getting right, thus making a game I could potentially be interested in. Hence why I think it's missing from your otherwise broadly correct expections speculation.

 

[Cologno]

to be extra extra super fair iron shortage is more creative than YET ANOTHER PLAGUE

NWN did the strange plague ugh I'm getting PTSD now

Yep. To varying degrees of involvement:

- NWN
- Dragon Age Origins
- GreedFall
- Dishonored
- Bloodborne
- Darkest Dungeon
- TES: Morrowind
- and even VTM Bloodlines

Probably many more.

Of course it makes some sense at least, since plague/disease is a major factor in human history and personal experience. So people like to tell stories about it, I guess.

Seems criminal not to mention Deus Ex and Gray Death in there. I played that for the first time about a year back. Common theme in those games you listed is desperation and despondency and may did that come through in DX.

 

[luj1]

Roguey and Infinitron you guys are going to overheat from damage control

 

[AwesomeButton]

Paramo's work history

Yes, I think you or someone else already cited his past projects. This did make me biased, but I would have guessed it either way.

 

[Grunker]

Don't make me tap the sign:
>If lockpicking is determined by character skill, its an RPG system.
>If lockpicking is determined by player skill, its an action system.

what if it's determined by both

checkmate, liberals

Action system. One drop rule, if a very good player can make a character do something that character is completely unskilled at, then its an action game mechanic.

But they can't in a lot of previous systems like you described. The ability to attempt the real time dexterity mini game is gated behind skill thresholds.

 

[Grunker]

Roguey and Infinitron you guys are going to overheat from damage control

Isn't Roguey still in his "Obisidian bad" phase

 

[whydoibother]

Google Avowed, 4 featured news articles, 1 positive, 1 negative, 2 neutral...

.... except even the positive article has this banger quote:

Last decade, Avowed would have passed for a great title, but the standards for RPGs have changed since then.

I think the general mood about this is low, and the gameplay shown disappointed the normies as well. We've also had a few big flagship titles flop recently, and this has the same vibes. A game pitched before a market shift, that already had lead rotations, that already revised itself at least once, and that has no bright selling point/gimmick.
I hope the game is good on release, or at least eventually, and I am sure I'll put at least 10 hours into it myself. But I don't think we are looking at Skyrim 2 tier success. I think six months after this releases, Starfield has more people online on Steam. Pure speculating, just my bet.

 

[whydoibother]

But they can't in a lot of previous systems like you described. The ability to attempt the real time dexterity mini game is gated behind skill thresholds.

Well, then its 2 systems: first an RP system, to determine if you can proceed to the second action system. Your character has to be good enough at the skill, to permit you to see if you are good enough at the associated minigame.

 

[luj1]

Roguey and Infinitron you guys are going to overheat from damage control

Isn't Roguey still in his "Obisidian bad" phase

I thought your anti-bullshit save was higher

 

[Old Hans]

Google Avowed, 4 featured news articles, 1 positive, 1 negative, 2 neutral...
View attachment 45920

.... except even the positive article has this banger quote:

Last decade, Avowed would have passed for a great title, but the standards for RPGs have changed since then.

I think the general mood about this is low, and the gameplay shown disappointed the normies as well. We've also had a few big flagship titles flop recently, and this has the same vibes. A game pitched before a market shift, that already had lead rotations, that already revised itself at least once, and that has no bright selling point/gimmick.
I hope the game is good on release, or at least eventually, and I am sure I'll put at least 10 hours into it myself. But I don't think we are looking at Skyrim 2 tier success. I think six months after this releases, Starfield has more people online on Steam. Pure speculating, just my bet.

I like how how Forbes of all places is the only one who's like "someting is just not right"