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Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
I'm looking for acceptance in the Codex, that's why I defend Fable.

Really though, I don't think there's a common "acceptance" law here that so many other forums display. I think it's just who can argue better. If someone is overly transparent in thier quest to somehow get "accepted", they're usually made fun of from what I've seen (like that whole "I hate Sol Invictus" thing).

If you can argue a good case for Oblivion, I don't think anyone here will call you an idiot because you like it.

It's really a moot point.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
It's a matter of whether a particular poster feels the need to toe a particular line because if they don't, they fear rejection.
First, rejection at the Codex is one of them urban myths. There are plenty of people, like Tintin for example, who claim that Oblivion is awesome all day long. Second, there are always people who support popular opinions, but those people are easy to tell by their arguments. That's why I said "after reading his posts".

And I was really responding in kind to his assertation that Oblivion's quests suck ("oh boy are you really gonna go cop it when everyone finds out your quests suck"). He doesn't know they do. He's assuming they do. Which is no better than a member of the aforementioned group of people would do.
True. Yet your "but we haven't said anything yet" comment which triggered his reply is also no better then a typical "you haven't played it yet" comment from Bethesda's fanboys. So, we are kinda even.:wink:
 

Rat Keeng

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
869
MrSmileyFaceCriswell knows all, it seems :)

Not that you're wrong, sure there are some who might think it's teh kewlz to bash a game to be popular, just like there's some who'll make love to Oblivion, to get in with the elder scrolls crowd. Just like there's a ton of people who bash certain fanbases for being "whiny runts" and such, and of course there's the anti-codexers, who come here, troll about, get yelled at, and run home to cry foul and get attention, for standing up against the mean codex monsters.

Conforming to an opinion, in order to get accepted happens all the time. You could say defending Oblivion on the codex is a bandwagon thing, in order to get accepted as a pro-Oblivion tuff guy. Some say it'll suck horribly, even though they haven't played it, some say it'll be kneedeep in awesomesauce, even though they haven't played it. The reasons are usually the same whether it's love or hate, since people differ in their view of what awesome graphics and shopping NPCs can do for a game.
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
There are plenty of people, like Tintin for example, who claim that Oblivion is awesome all day long.

But then again, there is a difference between a "member registered at RPG Codex" and a "Codexer".
 

Balor

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
5,186
Location
Russia
*MSDF thinking that we must suck VD's cock or be banned for eternity here at Codex.*
Mwahahaha! I, for instance, think that TB is TEH SUCK in comparison to properly done RTWP, so what? (Btw, even seasoned JA2 vets that don't take kindly to dumbing games down loved Brigade's E5 SPM, though).
It even didn't earn me a dumbfuck title for some reason :).
I, for instance, do like *some* directions where Oblivion is going.
RAI is sure nifty, if I'm quite sure it will not be as good as AI of Space Rangers, where NPCs actually lived a full-scale 'business life'.
Graphics and animations is nice, cause it was among the chief let-downs in MW... I mean after the lack of proper RP and the like, don’t throw rotten tomatoes at me :). Especially animations, cause due to lack of support and engine limitations they were never fixed... and, I guess, none will say that animation was outstanding in MW, where NPCs moved like robots that were left out in the open with no oiling for too long.
More realistic combat with no 'swords passing thru enemies' is great, actually. And no, it's not dumbing down in my book - in fact, swinging a sword at someone who's right in front of you and missing is my own definition of dumb. Perhaps because I'm was into RL swordfencing for a while... yea, I can understand rolls. But when dodges or parries that suppose to indicate that ‘failed roll’ are simply never shown, it’s not ‘hardcore’ - it’s unimplemented feature.
Even no mounted combat is ok, just don't yammer it's 'too hard', or 'too innovational, or 'never done before''. You might as well say that you don't have enough brains or have hands growing from your ass - since M&B came into public, that would be much closer to truth, I'm afraid.
However, merging weapon skills is an obvious dumb-down, especially dagger and sword skills, and only the most rabid of fanboys fail to notice that... or those who simply don't care about whether games have a shred of realism.
I do agree on the merge of medium and heavy armor, though - it indeed didn't have a lot of sence. Now, if there was 'flexible' and 'plate' armor skills, that would be perfect... oh well, cannot have everything.
Btw, unarmored should be better renamed to 'dodge'. Oh well, it was done before in mods.
And maces/axes being blunt... bah! Call them hafted, you uneducated lot.
Oh well, while I'm not certain about adding skills, renaming them would be possible (at least it was possible in MW, and even with all the dumb downs, I doubt it was removed... only just to spite modders, perhaps) - so fixing that would be easy.
But for quests and the like... we'll wait and see.
I do agree on the part that ‘doom and gloom’ predictions are about as dumb as ‘Oblivion will own your mother!’ ones, since we just don’t have enough information.
But we do have a reason to worry. It’s just extrapolation of our experience from previous games of the same company. If MW had depth of roleplay to beat P:T, I bet MSDF will be greeted like an incarnation of God on Earth each time he’ll visit this boards.
It’s RPG Codex, after all.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Tintin said:
But then again, there is a difference between a "member registered at RPG Codex" and a "Codexer".
Sorry to break it to you, Tintin, ol' pal, but there isn't, unless you mean people who register but never post. Since you, for whatever stupid reason, decided to stick around and post some stuff, you've become a part of the Codex and a living proof that people who like Oblivion and can argue in a civilized manner (I know, I know, it's a rare combination) are free to express their opinions.

Balor said:
It even didn't earn me a dumbfuck title for some reason :).
You didn't try hard enough :wink:
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Sorry to break it to you, Tintin, ol' pal, but there isn't, unless you mean people who register but never post. Since you, for whatever stupid reason, decided to stick around and post some stuff, you've become a part of the Codex and a living proof that people who like Oblivion and can argue in a civilized manner (I know, I know, it's a rare combination) are free to express their opinions.

Perhaps.

But I it seems to me RPG Codex consists of that group of people, generally Oblivion-haters, and anyone else is pretty much an outsider.
 

Sarkile

Magister
Patron
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
1,395
Tintin said:
Perhaps.

But I it seems to me RPG Codex consists of that group of people, generally Oblivion-haters, and anyone else is pretty much an outsider.
It seems to me that the majority of people at the Codex don't really care about Oblivion. And those few who do post endlessly about it seem to do so due to a past enjoyment of Daggerfall.
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
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Messages
1,480
It seems to me that the majority of people at the Codex don't really care about Oblivion.

:lol:

Oh come on, have you seen the number of Oblivion posts are on this site?
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,390
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Spazmo, I'm not even entering myself into the equation. I think that DarkUnderlord and some others are simply predisposed to believe that Oblivion will be no good. And they will remain negative about it even in the face of a vast majority thinking otherwise, EVEN IF he secretly buys the game and loves it. Unless it becomes unfashionable to do that on RPGCodex.

I'd love to be proven wrong about that assumption.
If you manage to pull off something remarkable, I'll let you know. I'm not going to secretly pretend I hate it when I play it every afternoon. I mean, I did enjoy Morrowind (bought the Gold edition which had the expansion packs - so I didn't get it right away) but I always add "for what it was". As a nice exploration game it's fun. As a game I want to play again, it's not. I've only ever played Morrowind once. I first of all ran around for ages levelling up and exploring, went back to the main plot, finished it and have never played it again.

I tried downloading and installing some mods for a while after I finished it but by then, there was nothing left there for me. No desire to start again given the linear main plot, no strange urge to find every last Daedric temple given their similarity and 'whack-a-mole' monsters. The mods always ended up giving me a bunch of pop-up screens telling me "X is missing! Y has failed to load!" anyway, so they weren't exactly inspiring.

In short, I bought Morrowind because it was cheap and I knew I'd enjoy it for a while. Hell, I haven't even read all the books in the game because the stories, while not bad, never really interested me enough. I've still got a save game with my home base and a 'library' of stashed books in one giant 'to read' pile. I keep thinking I'll re-install Morrowind, load that game and read them all one day.

However, I judge non-released games on what I believe to be occuring. When I hear things like:
  1. Role-playing to us means riding around on horseback, killing people.
  2. Mounted combat isn't in, it's just too hard to do. Time constraints and all that.
  3. Crossbows are out because ranged skills are all about a bow, you know.
  4. All the skills have been merged into one by the way.
  5. The game automatically re-loads when you kill someone important.
  6. The trees look nice.
  7. People set their dogs on fire but that's only because we amped it up for that demo. Normally, they don't do that.
  8. Patrick Stewart!?
... I'm not exactly jumping around with glee here. I know what Morrowind is. What's been said so far isn't telling me that Oblivion will be any great leap up from that, other than nice trees and Patrick Stewart. I feel that the things that are important to me (making a difference with every action I take, non-linear main plot, multiple ways to complete quests) are not important to Bethesda (lots of books with funny stories, exploration of temples, nice trees).

Vault Dweller said:
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
I think that DarkUnderlord and some others are simply predisposed to believe that Oblivion will be no good.... Unless it becomes unfashionable to do that on RPGCodex.
Do you really think, after reading DU's posts, that he criticizes Oblivion because it's fashionable at the Codex?

"okay, Dark Underlord, we finally accept you. You can play with us now but remember, Oblivion sucks and don't you ever forget it!!!" *rolls eyes*
No, MFSD is right. I've wanted to be accepted into the Codex clique for some years now. All my posts aren't my opinion, they are in fact nothing more than an attempt to be cool. I still haven't got my membership card yet though. :(

MrSmileyFaceDude said:
It's not a matter of whether the Codex community will accept a particular poster because of their opinions. It's a matter of whether a particular poster feels the need to toe a particular line because if they don't, they fear rejection.
This is coming from the same guy who thought I was a Troika fan boy, isn't it? Then when I pointed out all the posts where I said bad things about Troika, it made you think again, didn't it?

MrSmileyFaceDude said:
And I was really responding in kind to his assertation that Oblivion's quests suck ("oh boy are you really gonna go cop it when everyone finds out your quests suck"). He doesn't know they do. He's assuming they do. Which is no better than a member of the aforementioned group of people would do.
I've got no reason to assume otherwise. I haven't read an interview about "multiple ways to complete quests" or "a truly involving, non-linear main plot". Hell, I can't even recall an interview where you really mention quests at all. I have, however, read plenty of interviews about "Patrick Stewart" and "soil erosion" and "the people you meet in the tavern may well be different depending on the time of day it is" and "don't those trees look nice?" and "we removed the axe skill" and "we removed crossbows" and "there is no mounted combat" and "sorry but the game does auto re-load when you kill an important character". While none of those things are bad in and of themselves, you're not exactly inspiring me here. I can take the good with the bad but when the later starts to outweigh the former, I begin to wonder. Again though, what you choose to focus on in how you develop your games and the audience you pitch those games to, doesn't appear to be what I look for in games.

... and lastly, how is assuming Oblivon will be a steaming pile of crap any different to assuming it will be "teh bestest gaem evAr!"? In either case, I haven't played the game yet and I'm only making a judgement on what I've read about it or believe Bethesda are capable of accomplishing.

Besides, you'd really prefer it if I wet myself everytime you mentioned Patrick Stewart?
 

Sarkile

Magister
Patron
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
1,395
Tintin said:
It seems to me that the majority of people at the Codex don't really care about Oblivion.

:lol:

Oh come on, have you seen the number of Oblivion posts are on this site?
Jesus. Okay, find each Oblivion thread. Now what fraction of the threads that has the original poster speaking negatively about the game is actually Vault Dweller? If you can't see that only a small fraction of the Codex's members are posting to any degree in these threads then you have some vision/reading problems.
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Sarkile said:
Tintin said:
It seems to me that the majority of people at the Codex don't really care about Oblivion.

:lol:

Oh come on, have you seen the number of Oblivion posts are on this site?
Jesus. Okay, find each Oblivion thread. Now what fraction of the threads that has the original poster speaking negatively about the game is actually Vault Dweller? If you can't see that only a small fraction of the Codex's members are posting to any degree in these threads then you have some vision/reading problems.

:lol:

Where did Vault Dweller enter this? At any given day, click "View New Posts" and you will see a reasonable percentage, considering the billions of topics there are to discuss in te world, that Oblivion seems to actually be a popular topic at the Codex, not "the majority of people at the Codex don't really care about Oblivion".
 

Naked_Lunch

Erudite
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
5,360
Location
Norway, 1967
Role-playing to us means riding around on horseback, killing people.
Actually, that's incorrect. I belive they said that Fantasy for us was a knight riding around on horseback, killing people.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Sarkile said:
Tintin said:
It seems to me that the majority of people at the Codex don't really care about Oblivion.

:lol:

Oh come on, have you seen the number of Oblivion posts are on this site?
Jesus. Okay, find each Oblivion thread. Now what fraction of the threads that has the original poster speaking negatively about the game is actually Vault Dweller?
I assume we are not talking about news posts, but about threads in General RPG section?

All non-news Oblivion threads / Started By:

Question for Beth developers Hellfire
Why Oblivion will be the bestest game ever bryce777
Unofficial preview VD
TES magic Twinfalls
When Bethesda will mess with FO3 Sandelfron
Sol is excited about Radiant AI aweigh
TES4: Oblivion malhovic
I'm splintering tinder Morsigil
Next gen-RPG: riddles & reading micmu
I was wrong MSFD
Oblivion article VD
"who uses this stuff" Twinfalls
OMG! More famous voices Whipporowill
Oblivion delayed Sol
Looking forward to Oblivion freelance
Nine divines The Good Doctor
The greatest RPG ever VD
I'm looking forward to Oblivion Sol
Oblivion: what will be missing Athame
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Tintin said:
But I it seems to me RPG Codex consists of that group of people, generally Oblivion-haters, and anyone else is pretty much an outsider.
Not really. There's a number of people who are looking forward to Oblivion for different reasons, there is a number of people who don't really care about TES games and Oblivion in particular, and then there is a group that criticizes Oblivion. Plenty of room for everyone. As long as people don't post crap like Oblivion sucks or Oblivion is awesome!, we can all get along just fine.
 

Sarkile

Magister
Patron
Joined
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Messages
1,395
I suppose I was wrong. Maybe it's just the many news posts started by you that made me think that. Although still, many of those threads that you listed started out with comments positive or neutral towards Oblivion.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
My point was that people do talk about Oblivion a lot, which is only to be expected considering how close the release date is. As for me being the most vocal critic, well, no arguing here.
 

Sarkile

Magister
Patron
Joined
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Messages
1,395
I know a lot of people talk about Oblivion. I guess just reading the same points from the same people over and over makes it difficult for me to recall other people posting in them.
Honestly, I'm waiting for you to review it even if it only ends up in the General RPG forum. Sort of how Saint's critical review of KoTOR swayed me to buy it just because I knew the flaws going into it. If it's just a dumbed down Morrowind with scheduling thrown in, I should probably pass.
 

TheGreatGodPan

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,762
I've never played any of the TES games, but my opinion on RPGs and games seems to mesh well enough with that evil Codex hive-mind that I could be considered one of the "Codexers". I don't care about Oblivion, as I know my computer isn't good enough to handle it and I've got a huge backlog of games before I even think of getting another. People say Daggerfall is good if the bugs are fixed, but it seems unlikely that I'd be able to find a copy. Arena was apparently released free for download by Bethesda, so maybe I'll test it out after I'm done with Ultima Underworld: Stygian Abyss, X-Com: UFO Defense, Worlds of Ultima: Martian Dreams, Ultima VII: The Black Gate, Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar, Civilization II, Wasteland, Loom, Zak McCracken and the Alien Mindbenders, Shadow of the Comet, Darklands, Losing Your Grip, Return to Ditch Day, Change in the Weather, Dreamhold, Jigsaw, Textfire Golf, Narcolepsy, Fallacy of Dawn, Necrotic Drift, The Muldoon Legacy, The Muldoon Murders, Curses, "The Meteor, The Stone and Long Glass of Sherbet", The Plant, Delusions, Blue Chairs and Sting of the Wasp. Although before I get one of the TES games I might get Fallout 2, Arcanum, one of the Gothics, Full Throttle or Last Express. And after I replace my Nvidia Riva TNT2 I might get Invisible War, Deadly Shadows, Bloodlines, or (if they've come out) Call of Cthulhu, Bioshock and whatever Junction Point is up to. At the rate I've been going since August 22 (0 hours of gameplay) that ought to last me until...the apocalypse.
 

MrSmileyFaceDude

Bethesda Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
716
DarkUnderlord, it's all good. I was just sniping back at your sniping post. I understand where you're coming from. I'm glad you enjoyed Morrowind, and hope you get even more out of Oblivion.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
12,495
Location
Behind you.
Shit, I haven't started an "Oblivion sucks" thread yet. I feel like I've missed an important part of the RPG Codex experience.
 

Hazelnut

Erudite
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
UK
Jeez, don't you two start or everyone'll be doing it!

:lol:
 

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