Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 1&2 for the first time in ages. BGT or not?

[Parabalus]

At high levels

RIP BG1 and half of SOA again.

(also possibly Neera's quest item)

Almost as bad as 'mods will fix it', but ok. Assuming you could stand Neera long enough to get it.

To start with you have 50-60% chance not to get a wild surge.

Which works out to reloading only 40% of the time. Yay. Not counting the 5% default chance to miscast if you don't have a shield up.

I've seen guides for BG1 advocate not casting a spell until level 4. It's a clown show of a class, dude.

Then lots of wild surges do nothing (target glows), nothing of consequence (caster loses 6 strength... just pause the game and move items), or help you (spell casts twice, or spell casts and caster gets all their spells back as if they rested). As long as you have abilities like protection from fire and petrification on you then you're fine spamming with a wild mage.

Oh, yeah, just cast a protection from petrification spell every time you're going to cast a spell. Makes sense. View attachment 26127

You get it in spellhold, that's not exactly far into the game.

I guess halfway through could be more appropriate, depending on how you play, but it really depends on how many side quests you do before then. I realize some people rush Spellhold for story reasons, but it doesn't make much more sense to spend weeks doing random side quests after the Underdark either.

The point is, you don't have access to it in BG1 or in the first part of BG2 - you know, the part where you're encouraged to gather money? Oops, 80% of it just disappeared. How fun.

Strictly speaking you never really even need money in BG2 because you can have a thief drink 5 potions of thievery and steal everything you want.

We're already to the part where you're advocating cheesing your way around it, I see. I guess you never play lawful characters then. What's next, console commands?

I believe you'd do that, but I'm not sure how you can advocate cheesing the system using a bug no one ever bothered to fix and still expect me to believe that you're actually using any of these convoluted suggestions rather than simply reloading the game.

If you really dread that Wild Surge just press 'L' when it happens.

 

[Sykar]

Or just play either a conjurer or sorcerer.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Any Paladin kit is strictly better, especially at low level.

Which is probably the biggest argument for playing BG1 and IWD in EE: they make all the literally useless classes (paladin, bard, ranger, pure thief) good or, at the very least, somewhat interesting.

 

[Jasede]

Ranger and Paladin were quite good I thought. Admittedly it has been a while. Of course Fighters were better but it's not really meant to be balanced.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Useless as in: literally just being (much) worse fighters with nothing going for them.

 

[Sarathiour]

For Karkh, his HP is normal (not boss boosted) and he has no magic resistance, so spell thrust and then he'll go down in like 4-6 casts of Aganazzar's scorcher/wand of frost/wand of fire. Defensively you want to bait out his dispel, then drink potions to be immune to his chaos and ideally haste yourself as well and kite him. Theoretically you could beat him at level 5 since spell thrust is only a level 3 spell. Alternatively you can hit him with spells like greater malison/bane/prayer/recitation to nuke his saves then spam command and blindness a few times till he's blind.

The problem that arise is the impossibility to reliably get spellthrust, and even if you got it, it's probably no going to be before act 5. Karkh also had high stat in base game, but he was only using shitty spell, fireball and lighting bolt were not very difficult to defend against.
Wand and potion go past minor globe, so that coupled with mass use of oil speed is probably the only way the take him down around level 5-6, which is the level when you're supposed to meet him.

 

[Average Manatee]

The problem that arise is the impossibility to reliably get spellthrust, and even if you got it, it's probably no going to be before act 5. Karkh also had high stat in base game, but he was only using shitty spell, fireball and lighting bolt were not very difficult to defend against.
Wand and potion go past minor globe, so that coupled with mass use of oil speed is probably the only way the take him down around level 5-6, which is the level when you're supposed to meet him.

True, I remember getting spell thrust pretty early in BG1 but it's probably because of some SCS added scroll randomization, I checked the mage store and didn't find it.

If you wanted to be semi-cheesy you could just run away/stealth/drink a potion of invisibility and then wait like 5-10 mins IRL (don't rest) till his main buffs wore off.

Ranger and Paladin were quite good I thought. Admittedly it has been a while. Of course Fighters were better but it's not really meant to be balanced.

In BG1? You get your first level 1 spell slot at the level cap. Which you then go on to cast as a level 1 druid/cleric, meaning your buffs are weak and most last 1 round. Otherwise Paladin has lay on hands and +2 saves, Ranger has their racial enemy and 2 pips in dual wielding.

Which is probably the biggest argument for playing BG1 and IWD in EE: they make all the literally useless classes (paladin, bard, ranger, pure thief) good or, at the very least, somewhat interesting.

And the fact that you're only getting 1 kitted character out of a party of 6 limits the power creep a lot. IWD gets a lot more power creeped when you design a whole party (e.g. multiple berserkers + a Skald for up to +6 THAC0/+6 Damage/+6 AC).

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Again, not balanced for BG1. You aren't supposed to play wild mage in BG1.

And yet you can now. You're the one who brought up Neera. That makes this about BG:EE as well, which does have Wild Mages in BG1.

It's literally a single level 1 spell that lasts an hour. Like 1/3rd of the NPCs in baldur's gate are mages, you'll have dozens of level 1 slots for someone to cast it.

Dozens? And if you're solo?

No, I can't seriously believe you drag around a couple of mage NPCs to be your protection against petrification batteries.

Here you are again, coming up with more bullshit 'solutions' that it's doubtful you actually use over just reloading or using the console.

The amount of money you need to go to spellhold is pathetic. 1 or 2 quests does it.

Unless a wild surge wiped out your 80% of gold in those one or two quests.

The chance of getting the wild surge that removes 80% of your money is 1%. This is literally the biggest non-issue of the wild mage class ever.

So for every 100 wild surges you experience, you can expect one of those to wipe your gold. Nice.

Strictly speaking you never really even need money in BG2 because you can have a thief drink 5 potions of thievery and steal everything you want.

We're already to the part where you're advocating cheesing your way around it, I see. I guess you never play lawful characters then. What's next, console commands?

I believe you'd do that, but I'm not sure how you can advocate cheesing the system using a bug no one ever bothered to fix and still expect me to believe that you're actually using any of these convoluted suggestions rather than simply reloading the game.

What the fuck are you going on about?

Is English hard for you? Can't read your own quotes?

You really must love extra spell slots to defend this class's flaws so hard. Had Black Isle not made the asinine decision to include such idiotic results in their custom wild surge table, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Check out 2E's wild surge table. Notice how there's no gold loss, let alone an 80% loss? Notice how the Gate spell isn't BG2's dumbed down Gate spell, but a normal one with potential positive outcomes and a 50% chance of failure?

Wow, it's almost like the people who designed the class for PnP actually wanted people to use it. It's almost like there's no save scumming in D&D games, so they had to actually think these things through.

 

[NJClaw]

rusty_shackleford are you going to let them shit-talk your girlfriend like this? Be a man and intervene.

 

[Average Manatee]

And yet you can now. You're the one who brought up Neera. That makes this about BG:EE as well, which does have Wild Mages in BG1.

No it doesn't because the quest is in ToB.

Dozens? And if you're solo?

If you are solo then that's your own fucking problem to deal with. It's not my job to invent solutions to your own personal restrictions.

"What if you are playing one-handed, blind and in 120 FPS with a touch screen interface on your phone with wild mage without pausing? What THEN are you going to do?"

I can't seriously believe you drag around a couple of mage NPCs to be your protection against petrification batteries.

Here you are again, coming up with more bullshit 'solutions' that it's doubtful you actually use.

In SoA/ToB? What? Do you even play BG2? Especially SCS? Most competent groups have at least 3 arcane spellcasters. Having 19 copies of magic missile and 1 protection from petrification rather than 20 copies of magic missile is a pretty marginal drawback.

Unless a wild surge wiped out your 80% of gold in those one or two quests.

Then sell an item or two or just do two more quests. This is literally a non-issue to anyone who has ever played wild mage and it proves you haven't.

So for every 100 wild surges you experience, you can expect at least one of those to wipe your gold. Nice.

And you're wrong, it's a 2 in 100 chance. There are two 80% gold destroyed results in the table. Yes, they thought it was such a great idea, they put it in there twice.

The first gold destroyed result is the result of a 17 on the table. Chaos shield adds +15 to your wild surge roll. Therefor you can't experience it unless you are below level 3. And again, wild surges are only a 5% chance unless using reckless dweomer, so you'd have to cast 5000 spells on average to lose your gold once. It's not like you need to spam reckless dweomer all the time, it's basically there to trivialize boss fights with chained level 9 spells and the rare need to have a sorcerer-like ability to use a spell you didn't memorize beforehand (like spellstrike if a mage pops up unexpectedly).

Check out 2E's wild surge table. Notice how there's no gold loss, let alone an 80% loss twice? Notice how the Gate spell isn't BG2's dumbed down Gate spell, but a normal one with potential positive outcomes and a 50% chance of failure?

Wow, it's almost like the people who designed the class for PnP actually wanted people to use it. It's almost like there's no save scumming in D&D games, so they had to actually think these things through.

Why are you on about the 80% gold loss? If you are playing PnP or BG2 ironman, gold loss is the least of your problems compared to dying instantly because your self-buff changed into a fireball.

Indeed in PnP characters have individual gold so 80% gold loss would barely even matter to begin with. Just don't have the wild mage carry the gold lmao, that's what the party would do. Heck PnP characters can just put their gold in the bank.

 

[Nano]

Check out 2E's wild surge table. Notice how there's no gold loss, let alone an 80% loss twice? Notice how the Gate spell isn't BG2's dumbed down Gate spell, but a normal one with potential positive outcomes and a 50% chance of failure?

Wow, it's almost like the people who designed the class for PnP actually wanted people to use it. It's almost like there's no save scumming in D&D games, so they had to actually think these things through.

A lot of things turned retarded in BG2 because Bioware thought they were better at balancing than the D&D designers.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

No it doesn't because the quest is in ToB.

No, it does, because it's EE. You include one EE gimmick and not another. I realize that makes your argument easier, but it's hypocritical.

If you are solo then that's your own fucking problem to deal with. It's not my job to invent solutions to your own personal restrictions.

"What if you are playing one-handed, blind and in 120 FPS with a touch screen interface with wild mage without pausing? What THEN are you going to do?"

All you've done is invent 'solutions'.

Nice strawman though.

In SoA/ToB? What? Do you even play BG2? Especially SCS? Most competent groups have at least 3 arcane spellcaster.

And two of those are your protection from petrification batteries? LMAO, yeah right. Come on, dude. Just admit you spam the reload button already.

Then sell an item or two or just do two more quests. This is literally a non-issue to anyone who has ever played wild mage and it proves you haven't.

How would I know about the class's flaws if I hadn't? You're making no sense. Getting pissy. Not a good look.

And again, wild surges are only a 5% chance unless using reckless dweomer, so you'd have to cast 5000 spells on average to lose your gold once.

5% chance unless you cast NRD, which makes it a 100% chance. And you don't get the spells and items to all but completely negate negative effects until later in the game, and certainly not in BG1 - where btw you spend most of the game above level 3.

Why are you on about the 80% gold loss? If you are playing PnP or BG2 ironman, gold loss is the least of your problems compared to dying instantly because your self-buff changed into a fireball.

'Oi mate. Oi guvna. What are ye on about? Ye got a loicense for them wild surge tables, ave ye?'

I'm not defending the class apart from the gold loss either. Just saying that the gold loss is especially stupid.

And at least with fireball spells there's the chance of using protections. There is no protection against obviously bad developer decisions like 80% gold loss.

 

[Average Manatee]

No, it does, because it's EE. You include one EE gimmick and not another. I realize that makes your argument easier, but it's hypocritical.

Just because something exists in the EE games doesn't mean I have to defend it. No one is defending Neera.

All you've done is invent 'solutions'.

Easy solutions that makes you practically immune to the downsides of wild surges vs. idiot that ignores them and does everything to play the class wrong.

And two of those are your protection from petrification batteries? LMAO, yeah right. Come on, dude. Just admit you spam the reload button already.

You do realize mages have more than 1 spell slot right? And that mages are among best classes to have in BG2? Do you think people actually have Edwin in the party just to cast protection from petrification once and then he stands around not using his other 100 spell slots? (inb4 fact check: I know Edwin actually caps out at around 80 spell slots)

People have played Wild Mage iron man completely legitimately with difficulty enhancing mods like SCS.

5% chance unless you cast NRD, which makes it a 100% chance. And you don't get the spells and items to all but completely negate negative effects until later in the game, and certainly not in BG1 - where btw you spend most of the game above level 3.

1. There's no point casting NRD at a low level for inconsequential spells. It's effectively an ability you might start using around level 10-15, unless you're in a tough encounter where you're going to die anyway unless you cast just the right spell (in which case, 100% chance of a wild surge that MIGHT hurt you is better than a 100% chance of dying by not casting a spell, assuming we're playing ironman. This might be the case if your party just got dispelled or something and you need an immediate protection or you'll die)
2. EVEN if you play BG1 and insist on using wild mage, Chaos shield is a level 2 spell so you'll have it by level 3. You don't need additional items to avoid the first gold loss event. And before you say "but but but then I HAVE to use my level 2 spell slot on chaos shield?", remember that as a wild mage you get an extra spell slot for free at all levels.
3. Gold loss is kind of irrelevant in BG1 anyway since there isn't that much to buy for most of the game. And again, just put your valuable items in a container next to the beregost smith until you need gold.

There is no protection against obviously bad developer decisions like 80% gold loss.

Aside from all the protections and workarounds that you ignore, I guess.

 

[The Limper]

BG1 - Warriors play as either Board and Sword, Duallies, 2-Handed or Misslers.

Fighter vs. Ranger.

At level 1-2, Ranger rules as as he can have 2 pips in Long Sword and 3 in Dual wield. Ranger wins at level 1 when going dual. Its a tie with the other styles.

At level 3 fighter gains equality in dual as he can get his 3rd pip in DW. He gains superiority in the other styles as he can have 3 pips in the base weapon used.

Not to level 6 does the fighter surpass the Ranger completely.

Synopsis - Fighter is the better end game warrior, but for the first few chapters Ranger competes as mostly an equal.

One benny of choosing Ranger or Pally no one seems to mention very often, they average much higher initial stats. This matters if your not a frigging low-down, dirty cheater, who probably licks doorknobs for fun.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Just because something exists in the EE games doesn't mean I have to defend it. No one is defending Neera.

You don't need to defend it, but it is part of the conversation. If you want to admit that Wild Mages are broken in BGEE1, that's fine, but don't pretend it's out of left field when I talk about it when you're the one bringing up Neera.

Easy solutions that makes you practically immune to the downsides of wild surges

Yeah, like carrying around NPCs as your Protection from Petrification batteries.

Btw, if you have said NPCs, what's the point in playing a Wild Mage? I mean, you and the other guy were saying how great they are due to the extra spells, no cooldown on NRD etc., but if you have the 2 mages with you you suggested, do you really need more mage spells badly enough to play an annoying class?

idiot that ignores them and does everything to play the class wrong.

Idiot, huh? This from the genius who wastes his time arguing solutions he doesn't use rather than admit he hits reload.

You do realize mages have more than 1 spell slot right? And that mages are among best classes to have in BG2? Do you think people actually have Edwin in the party just to cast protection from petrification once and then he stands around not using his other 100 spell slots? (inb4 fact check: I know Edwin actually caps out at around 80 spell slots)

People have played Wild Mage iron man completely legitimately with difficulty enhancing mods like SCS.

Your definition of 'completely legitimately' carries no weight with me after advocating cheesing the shops with master thievery potions to make up for the dumb 80% gold loss surges.

There's no point casting NRD at a low level for inconsequential spells. It's effectively an ability you might start using around level 10-15

So, after all of BG1 and the first part of BG2.

unless you're in a tough encounter where you're going to die anyway unless you cast just the right spell (in which case, 100% chance of a wild surge that MIGHT hurt you is better than a 100% chance of dying by not casting a spell, assuming we're playing ironman.

And if it isn't ironman, what then? Oh, right, you use it more often and reload. Because that's what you actually do and not the rest of the smoke you're blowing.

EVEN if you play BG1 and insist on using wild mage, Chaos shield is a level 2 spell so you'll have it by level 3. You don't need additional items to avoid the first gold loss event. And before you say "but but but then I HAVE to use my level 2 spell slot on chaos shield?", remember that as a wild mage you get an extra spell slot for free at all levels.

Chaos Shield, which lasts minutes, forcing more rest spam to if you want to avoid NRD surges & the random 2% chance on all your magic, or else wasting more spell slots on Chaos Shield, when the advantage of the Wild Mage is supposed to be extra spells.

Aside from all the protections and workarounds that you ignore, I guess.

I'm not ignoring them. I'm responding to each one you mention. And the one you're ignoring is reloading. Which you do, but repeatedly dodge admitting.

 

[Pink Eye]

this conversation is stimulating to my brainz

 

[Average Manatee]

Btw, if you have said NPCs, what's the point in playing a Wild Mage? I mean, you and the other guy were saying how great they are due to the extra spells, no cooldown on NRD etc., but if you have the 2 mages with you you suggested, do you really need more mage spells badly enough to play an annoying class?

Again, have you played SCS? It's almost impossible with a single mage in the group. 3 arcane casters is preferred. Without at least 2 enemy mages will just live forever because your mage won't be able to remove their protections faster than they put them up and every round an enemy mage is alive there's a chance they can cast something that leads to a very bad fight outcome. Even Keldorn with busted 2x inquisitor dispel doesn't work on some super high level boss mage enemies.

Idiot, huh? This from the genius who wastes his time arguing solutions he doesn't use rather than admit he hits reload.

Actually I usually just play Sorcerer nowadays because it's 90% as good as a wild mage and you just cheese the game slightly differently. It's weaker in ToB but only in the sense that where Wild Mage is like a 20/10 in terms of brokenness Sorcerer ends up like 16/10. I have played wild mage back in the pre-EE days and its honestly fine. I needed to reload like 5 times in all the entire BG2/ToB due to wild surges and those were all my mistake from something I could have protected myself. In my defense there was no wiki of wild surges summarizing exactly what could happen. In comparison playing SCS/Ascension probably caused 50 reloads, at least half of which is all on the final fight with the Five and Mellisan.

Your definition of 'completely legitimately' carries no weight with me after advocating cheesing the shops with master thievery potions to make up for the dumb 80% gold loss surges.

Stealing is legit, not sure why you think it isn't. Even if you don't use mastery thievery potions in EE you can just hire Hexxat and have her dump 200 points in pickpocks then kick her from the party when you're done.

So, after all of BG1 and the first part of BG2.

OK, and? You're still a mage (one of the best classes in the game) with an extra spell slot per level. It's not like NRD is the only spell you can cast.

And if it isn't ironman, what then? Oh, right, you use it more often and reload. Because that's what you actually do and not the rest of the smoke you're blowing.

If its not ironman then it's not ironman, what are you whining about? You were going to die without that mirror image or stoneskin anyway and if you do die then you reload. So you reload either way.

Chaos Shield, which lasts minutes, forcing more rest spam to avoid the random 2% chance on all your magic, or else wasting more spell slots on Chaos Shield, when the advantage of the Wild Mage is supposed to be extra spells.

Uhh, especially in BG1 mages generally aren't spamming spells every counter. At most they sleep once or twice then save most/all their spells for boss fights or other major encounters.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Again, have you played SCS? It's almost impossible with a single mage in the group. 3 arcane casters is preferred.

I have. I think you're very much exaggerating.

Actually I usually just play Sorcerer nowadays because it's 90% as good as a wild mage and you just cheese the game slightly differently. It's weaker in ToB but only in the sense that where Wild Mage is like a 20/10 in terms of brokenness Sorcerer ends up like 16/10. I have played wild mage back in the pre-EE days and its honestly fine. I needed to reload like 5 times in all the entire BG2/ToB and those were all my mistake from something I could have protected myself.

>I just reloaded 5 or 6 times bro
Ok.

But yeah, that bit about Sorcerers is my whole point. Wild Mages aren't actually worth the trouble when there are other classes that do most of what they do without the baggage that's only there due to bad dev decisions.

Stealing is legit, not sure why you think it isn't. Even if you don't use mastery thievery potions in EE you can just hire Hexxat and have her dump 200 points in pickpocks then kick her from the party when you're done.

If its not ironman then it's not ironman, what are you whining about? You were going to die without that mirror image or stoneskin anyway and if you do die then you reload. So you reload either way.

Uh huh. Just wanted to establish that. Carry on.

Uhh, especially in BG1 mages generally aren't spamming spells every counter. At most they sleep once or twice then save most/all their spells for boss fights or other major encounters.

>Mages don't cast that many spells anyway.
Balanced.

Well, this has been an enlightening encounter. I wish you well in your reload spamming and I thank you for helping me get my RPG Discussion post count up.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Wild Mage is one if the few kits that is not strictly better than a vanilla class in BG1. Nobody argued against this. Having a surge turn into a lightning bolt or fireball is way worse than gold loss in BG1.

In SoA there is a period of risk, but that 5% chance of a surge doesn't rear its head that often. When it does, there are only maybe a dozen effects that are truly dangerous. The player has access to Raise Dead very early in BG2, so as long as the PC doesn't die, it's mostly a speed bump. By Act 3 SoA, Wild Mage is nearly all upside. Extra spell slot, no school restriction, hyperflexible, and your wizard go super sayjin.

Edgelord is vastly overstating the hazard. Usually it produces some mayhem the odd time it does appear. The biggest terrors for me in BG2 are the Petrifaction on caster. Everything else is either good or benign. Wildmage is not advisable for a first run, but its a hell of a lot of fun for everyone else. I appreciate the power, I appreciate the unexpected wrench in my plans. I literally had a no-reload run end on my way to Suldenesselar from a wild surge petrifaction. Total bummer, but its a game. I moved on.

It doesn't eclipse the moments where I cast a spell and it gets rerolled 4 times in the heat of combat. Genders swapping, snow falling, characters polymorphing, lightning bolts ricocheting. Glorious. Coming out victorious in situations like that and having to pick up the pieces afterwards is FUN. As if anyone remembers what that word is.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

rusty_shackleford are you going to let them shit-talk your girlfriend like this? Be a man and intervene.

Neera is a QT, but wild mage isnt very strong in bg1. It doesn't reach its peak until BG2.

 

[Sarathiour]

True, I remember getting spell thrust pretty early in BG1 but it's probably because of some SCS added scroll randomization, I checked the mage store and didn't find it.

Btw, it's one of the reason that bard are surprisingly good in BG1. The way their XP table work mean that they're getting access to level 2 at the same time as mage, and level 3 roughly the same time, except you're not getting the good stuff before the end of act 4.
In exchange, you get free fear immunity, nearly double the hp, and someone who can wield a real weapon.

 

[Average Manatee]

What I like is that Neera's quest in BG1 specifically gives you a belt that gives +5 to your saves vs. petrification to avoid that wild surge. Problem is that the Flesh to Stone effect actually checks your save vs. spell, so the belt is basically useless.

Incidentally saves are another reason why wild surges really stop mattering late game: Even if you aren't protected your saves are probably high enough that a lot of wild surges won't do anything meaningful. You might not even notice them if you aren't paying attention to the combat log. By late SoA you'd have to roll the 5% wild surge, then roll a 1% petrification, then fail a save vs. spell that you have an 85% chance to succeed in order to be petrified (and if you have +3 to save vs. spell then you're immune). Not as great for effects like fireball cast on self but even then as long as you save you're taking 10d6 which is only 16.5 damage on average. Oh no.

True, I remember getting spell thrust pretty early in BG1 but it's probably because of some SCS added scroll randomization, I checked the mage store and didn't find it.

Btw, it's one of the reason that bard are surprisingly good in BG1. The way their XP table work mean that they're getting access to level 2 at the same time as mage, and level 3 roughly the same time, except you're not getting the good stuff before the end of act 4.
In exchange, you get free fear immunity, nearly double the hp, and someone who can wield a real weapon.

True but they do get significantly less spell slots IIRC, especially compared to specialist mages or sorcerers. Also no level 5 spells.

Also not sure what you mean by a "real" weapon. If you roll well enough to throw down with 18 str/18 dex then a mage with a sling is pretty deadly early game before their THAC0 and APR starts falling far behind warriors. The only edge unkitted Bards have here is a +2 THAC0 advantage.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

True, I remember getting spell thrust pretty early in BG1 but it's probably because of some SCS added scroll randomization, I checked the mage store and didn't find it.

Btw, it's one of the reason that bard are surprisingly good in BG1. The way their XP table work mean that they're getting access to level 2 at the same time as mage, and level 3 roughly the same time, except you're not getting the good stuff before the end of act 4.
In exchange, you get free fear immunity, nearly double the hp, and someone who can wield a real weapon.

They're extremely good dispellers in BG2, only outclassed by inquisitors.
Dispel is based on the level of the caster vs the level of the class that used the magic being dispelled. Bards level much faster than mages, meaning their dispel will rip through mages.


Also why multiclassing isn't as good as people think it is if you're using SCS, your protection against dispel is nil.

 

[Average Manatee]

Also why multiclassing isn't as good as people think it is if you're using SCS, your protection against dispel is nil.

Multiclassing does suck for a lot of classes but not really for this reason. SCS buffs enemy levels (or maybe this is vanilla and just no one cares without SCS) so much that it doesn't really even matter whether you're single or multi. Basically every SCS boss is way above your level. Irenicus is level 30, Bodhi is 25, Every lich you meet is at least level 20 and Kangaxx is level 40 I think. I'm not sure if inquisitor dispell even goes past effective level 40.

I think the Five in Ascension are all level 30 though so that's the point at which your level 40 bard and fuck them up, your level 31 mage is about even and level 20 fighter/mages still get shit on. But there's a lot of other ways to deal with enemy buffs by then and you can be immune to dispel with spell immunity: Abjuration.

Also don't use dispel magic, use remove magic. It's the same thing but won't fuck you.

 

[Sarathiour]

Also not sure what you mean by a "real" weapon. If you roll well enough to throw down with 18 str/18 dex then a mage with a sling is pretty deadly early game before their THAC0 and APR starts falling far behind warriors. The only edge unkitted Bards have here is a +2 THAC0 advantage.

I was talking about companion in general, not a lot of mage or bard with more than 15 strenght

They're extremely good dispellers in BG2, only outclassed by inquisitors.

Yeah i know, and also made pretty good buffer since their spell tend to last longer, though it's more a gimmick.

Also why multiclassing isn't as good as people think it is if you're using SCS, your protection against dispel is nil.

SCS and EE gave a tremendous edge to dual-class over multi. People forget that at time of release, dual classing from a kit mean not importing your character, which would mean lower stat. Also the xp was preventing you from getting level 9 spell in SoA, and multi were a way better fighter.