Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 2 is vastly overrated

Harthwain

Arcane
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,489
Glad to see there are some other people who had as much disappointment playing the BG series as I did. I never understood why they are so beloved. Sloppy writing, bad characters, annoying world full of samey "locations" that are just backdrops for a few boring characters, and the gameplay can be gotten elsewhere (like the aforementioned Icewind Dale, which has all of the gameplay and none of the crap).
That's because Baldur's Gate 2 is height of the fantasy adventure.

While I wasn't on board with every character in the game, I still liked that they felt like the actual characters, including having their own goals and sort of agency (as limited as it was). Baldur's Gate's party was a party. Icewind Dale's crew was a bunch of golems with no personality. In fact, there wasn't even really a leader there, either, which is yet another point in Baldur's Gate's favour.

Baldur's Gate 2 is also big and filled with people you can talk to and take quests from. It gives the impression of being its own world, where people live. It is not just a set dungeons to go through, even though fight is what you'll be doing 85% of the time. Granted, Icewind Dale also had places with people, but Baldur's Gate 2 did great work with Athkatla to make it a great place to explore (and having a lot of other places with people in general to visit, like Tradesmeet. Hell, even in the Underdark you can see a city created by an alien culture by looking at it from the insider's point of view). You don't have to go the dungeons to see combat or do questing.
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,964
Location
Wisconsin
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.

Baldur's Gate's party was a party. Icewind Dale's crew was a bunch of golems with no personality. In fact, there wasn't even really a leader there, either, which is yet another point in Baldur's Gate's favour.
I like IWD and BG2, but just mentioning that this isn't correct. There is a leader in IWD - the person who talks to NPCs and it actually does have an effect on quests and rewards. That's part of the lack of recognition of IWD. Lots of its features fly under the radar.
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
521
IWD didn't have "special characters" with unique names and dialogue. While the party DID have a leader, generally there was no special per-character dialogue, outside of IIRC a few special class/race specific dialogue options

But I kind of consider that a plus, since Baldur's Gate had a world full of "special snowflakes" with bad writing and terrible personalities.

BG was more of a (bad) interactive story with combat thrown on top, IWD was more focused on the combat and the dungeon crawling, the characters didn't matter so much.
 

Harthwain

Arcane
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,489
I like IWD and BG2, but just mentioning that this isn't correct. There is a leader in IWD - the person who talks to NPCs and it actually does have an effect on quests and rewards. That's part of the lack of recognition of IWD. Lots of its features fly under the radar.
I know that the game takes into consideration who's talking with a NPC. But that is not a mark of leadership, because you can use anyone.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36,729
Location
Merida, again
They are different games. BG is more story driven, IWD is more combat/tactic oriented. BG is about the NPC interactions with other companions and the PC, IWD is more about planning out an optimal adventuring party to raid some dungeons. In the IWD games it is made clear that the party are just a bunch of adventurers/mercenaries. You make your own story if you want.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36,729
Location
Merida, again
But I kind of consider that a plus, since Baldur's Gate had a world full of "special snowflakes" with bad writing and terrible personalities.

...

The original base game and expansion are not that bad. Taken in context with the time period they are okay. BGII took things a bit too into emo territory however.
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
521
In IWD the adventurers literally meet at random in a Tavern, the ultra-classic generic DND start.

The main reason I love IWD is because the mechanics of ADND 2e are very well suited for the type of combat the game offers. I made a mod to fix some of the more egregious issues with the game (like the extremely cheesable Resting system), and as a result the gameplay is actually quite good overall. Since you will be spending most of your time fighting, it makes for quite a good dungeon crawler.

BG, on the other hand, while it has mostly the same mechanics, largely focuses on NPC interactions and story beats. The combat is usually relegated to random encounters and dungeons, none of which hold a candle to the combat encounters in IWD, with a significant number of them being randomly generated forest critters that drop small amounts of gold and not much else. Most people who like BG don't mind this because they aren't playing the game for the combat or the gameplay (which is made very aparrent by Planescape: Torment players, where the gameplay is largely meaningless and mostly non-existant, you can't even die), and instead focus on the story. That's fine too. I just find the story extremely badly written and most of the characters very annoying. I want to punch Amoen nearly constantly. Most if not all of Baldur's Gate 1's characters are very obvious stereotypes - the big buff guy who speaks with a gruff voice and likes to smash things, the cowardly effeminate wizard who "just wants to do research" and is scared of basic combat, the greedy shopkeeper who just LOVES ripping off his customers in obvious ways, etc. I don't really see how this could be particularly compelling to anyone - the world feels like a joke, like a parody of an actual DND world, and comes across as very badly written. I have heard BG2 handles the characters significantly better, but playing BG2 realistically requires playing BG1, which is a miserable experience to suffer through.

A lot of the minor characters in IWD can come across as a bit boring, especially the temple priests, barkeeps, and generally all the "utility" NPCs. But I find that the main characters, especially Arundel, come across much better than a lot of the characters in BG because they are written to have some nuance and are generally treated more seriously than a throwaway joke. IWD's main story is relatively simple and straightforward, and has very few sidequests, so I understand if people don't like that, but I find the actual worldbuilding is far superior to BG in every way, from the characters to the pallette and design of interiors to the ambient sounds, it all works well to create the atmosphere of a frozen landscape and trecherous dungeons. Most of BG's locations are just kind of generic forests or cities.

Probably the biggest problem with people trying to get into IWD is that the first part of the game (before reaching Kuldahar) is extremely boring. You're mostly fighting goblins in large numbers, and since you're low level, so it ends up being a frustrating experience where you will go into a fight and lose 3 members of your team due to random enemy ranged crits, then quickload and win the fight easily without losing any health because the dice rolled differently. BG technically has the same problem but it's less pronounced because you're generally fighting 2-3 low-level nearly worthless critters at the start of the game, so the odd hit on your characters doesn't mean as much. I consider this a flaw with the way DND 2e was designed, since at lower levels RNG has a much larger effect on the outcome of fights.

TL;DR Icewind Dale is good. The story to BG is okay but largely filled with extra filler and terrible characters, which really bring it down. Given that it's only real advantage over IWD is it's focus on story, I feel like IWD is far better overall because it absolutely nails what it set out to do, rather than being a meandering mess like BG. I'll take a very good dungeon-crawler over a mediocre RPG any day, especially given the way the gameplay in ADND 2e actually works and how heavily combat focused the mechanics are.

Baldur's Gate reminds me of those cringe "online DND campaign" series that people do on Twitch (Critical Role, etc), where everyone is always trying to be ultra-funny and do wacky things all the time to try and keep the stream interesting, rather than creating an intriguing world and characters. If you want a good story-driven game on the Infinity Engine, just play Planescape: Torment instead, since it's actually intellectual and isn't just Bioware-tier drivel dressed up as something far more profound than it actually is.
 
Last edited:

Harthwain

Arcane
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,489
Baldur's Gate reminds me of those cringe "online DND campaign" series that people do on Twitch (Critical Role, etc), where everyone is always trying to be ultra-funny and do wacky things all the time to try and keep the stream interesting.
It's not just people who stream. People playing PnP RPG often try to do wacky things. That's huge part of the fun for them.
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
521
I get that, but I feel like people on streams are deliberately going over the top for the sake of the viewers. Like doing REALLY crazy shenanigans "for the lulz" because they know it will get views. Nobody ever plays a standard DND character, it's always "BIG SMASH MAN WHO YELLS CONSTANTLY with a giant fist made of stone" or something equally ridiculous.

I can't really give examples, though, because I haven't really watched much of this stuff, and have purged it from my mind after hating it when my friend played some Critical Role for me.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36,729
Location
Merida, again
Where there any streamers back in the late 90s and early 2000s? I mean, you can't fault the humor in BG for that. Sure, D&D always had a certain level of cringe coming from players even back in the early days, but we had no or little internet. You can say it was always cringe and silly.
 
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
521
DND essentially started as a combat simulator, and wasn't particularly silly. It sort of devolved naturally over time into a "story simulator" and got particularly silly around the 1980s. This is why 99% of the mechanics in DND are combat related, despite it being "a story simulator" and "theater of the mind". That's all fake news. DND was created as a dungeon-crawling combat simulator first and foremost. There wasn't really much room for silliness because everyone was too busy fighting.

Honestly, DND becoming more story focused was a mistake. There are much better roleplay systems for handling interactive stories, and DND having so many fiddly mechanics (like weight, food, etc) means "shopping sessions" in any campaign are basically inevitable, which gets really boring really quick. DND is a pretty robust system for handling combat, with a lot of complexity and nuance around how combat encounters work. Outside of combat, in terms of gameplay it really only offers basic checks and a few other minor gameplay features, but is generally extremely barebones.

DND will be dead soon, though. Combat was the only good aspect of DND and it's been getting less and less balanced and less strategic with each new addition they make to 5E. The power creep in the latest additions is absolutely insane and completely invalidates a lot of the older class archetypes etc.
 
Last edited:

Oreshnik Missile

BING XI LAO
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
7,793
Location
澳大利亚
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
DND essentially started as a combat simulator, and wasn't particularly silly. It sort of devolved naturally over time into a "story simulator" and got particularly silly around the 1980s. This is why 99% of the mechanics in DND are combat related, despite it being "a story simulator" and "theater of the mind". That's all fake news. DND was created as a dungeon-crawling combat simulator first and foremost. There wasn't really much room for silliness because everyone was too busy fighting.

Honestly, DND becoming more story focused was a mistake. There are much better roleplay systems for handling interactive stories, and DND having so many fiddly mechanics (like weight, food, etc) means "shopping sessions" in any campaign are basically inevitable, which gets really boring really quick. DND is a pretty robust system for handling combat, with a lot of complexity and nuance around how combat encounters work. Outside of combat, in terms of gameplay it really only offers basic checks and a few other minor gameplay features, but is generally extremely barebones.

DND will be dead soon, though. Combat was the only good aspect of DND and it's been getting less and less balanced and less strategic with each new addition they make to 5E. The power creep in the latest additions is absolutely insane and completely invalidates a lot of the older class archetypes etc.
It's been cringe since before I was even born? Damn.
I'm glad to be playing some FKR-type rules-lite Play By Posts instead tho.

:dealwithit:
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36,729
Location
Merida, again
If it has fantasy or dragons in the name it will always be cringe. The level of cringe depends of course. Current year D&D is far more cringe than what it was in the 90s or before.
 

Lagole Gon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
7,628
Location
Australia
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Pathfinder: Wrath
BG2 is nor overrated, Irenicus is.

Cringe stupid edge lord.
Midwit take.
Sure. People often only mention voice acting and can't think of better arguments. But there are other thing they got right.
Irenicus' dungeon is a good introduction to a villain. Storytelling through exploration - look at fucking that, STORYTELLING BY VIDEO GAME MEANS. I know, Irenicus' Dungeon is a bit of a meme, but that's because of the low replay value. As a first-time story experience, it's good stuff.

Also, I would think most Codexers appriciate a villain who is just a bitter butthurt prick who lives in a basement.
 
Last edited:

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36,729
Location
Merida, again
BG2 is nor overrated, Irenicus is.

Cringe stupid edge lord.
Midwit take.
Sure. People often only mention voice acting and can't think of better arguments. But there are other thing they got right.
Irenicus' dungeon is a good introduction to a villain. Storytelling through exploration - look at fucking that, STORYTELLING BY VIDEO GAME MEANS. I know, Irenicus' Dungeon is not loved, but that' because of the replay value. As a first-time story experience, it's good stuff.

Also, I would think most Codexers appriciate a villain who is just a bitter butthurt prick who lives in a basement.

Don't forget surrounded by sex dolls.
 

Nas92

Augur
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
630
OP is tl;dr and I'm not reading the rest of the gay bullshit everyone is spouting. BG2 is good for what it is, it's not an ultimate storytelling masterpiece, it's not an RPG mechanics and combat paradise to satisfy the most terminally autistic dex retards. It is adequate in those regards and it has a personality, a soul, atmosphere. Something that is lacking in most of the nu hardcore RPGs and even many of the older ones.

My only pet peeve about BG2 is that the fights boil down to this for a huge part of the game, especially Shadows of Amn: Boss is a mage or has a party that has a few high level magic users, casts all sorts of protection spells and the crowd controls and nukes your party. Reload, pre-buff the shit out of the part, then either outlast the boss' protection spells or use the breaching spells and bum rush. Or lame with traps and sneak attacks. Or animate dead which is basically a cheat code especially the first Irenicus fight. Non-boss fights are mostly trash mobs you cleave through, there more for flavor than to actually pose a threat.
 

Naraya

Arcane
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Messages
1,670
Location
Tuono-Tabr
Eh. I recently played IWD for the first time, then IWD2. Liked both, a lot. Now I'm replaying BG (again) after 9 years, having the time of my life.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36,729
Location
Merida, again
They are fun little games to play every now and then. Especially if you avoid going all hardcore meta and plan every inch of your party for "optimal" builds. My best playthroughs have been where I just let the die roll so to speak.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom