Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

Well, okay, then nothing matters because, opportunity costs or not, you can just reload if you lose the encounter, so you can't fail and your choices and actions are pointless. Games should also have no branching dialogue with branches that can lead you not to reach your goal, because you can just reload.

If you get rid of everything that an obtuse player can circumvent by reloading, you may as well cancel every game in existence.

To me, part of the fun is to make choices and deal with the consequences. Reloading completely invalidates that so I don't really consider it an option.

EDIT: also stop editing your posts it's driving me crazy

But we have to be realists about this, people reload if not doing a no-reload ironman run. Branching storylines aren't the same thing, you get a different story when you choose something specific, not lose the game. Pre-buffing makes you stronger before the fight, that is 100% true, it just doesn't in this very specific scenario that doesn't exist. You lose a combat dimension throughout the whole game to accommodate this scenario that doesn't exist.

 

[Cryomancer]

Pre-buffing makes you stronger before the fight, that is 100% true, it just doesn't in this very specific scenario that doesn't exist. You lose a combat dimension throughout the whole game to accommodate this scenario that doesn't exist.

Pre buffing is like changing gear.

If I can equip a ring of fire resistance before fighting a salamander, why I can't cast resist fire?

 

[Lacrymas]

Items are passive, spells are active, and not using the same opportunity cost pool, so it's once again a non-sequitur.

 

[Butter]

Why not force players to unequip their gear between battles and then spend a turn putting it on? That would be such opportunity cost.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

everytime a spell is cast outside of battle the enemies should be randomly regenerated so you can't guess what you'll be fighting

 

[NJClaw]

But we have to be realists about this, people reload if not doing a no-reload ironman run.

I don't care about what people do, I just want to have fun. And since no-reload ironman runs are the best way to have fun and every other way is objectively inferior, I don't see why I should consider them.

Pre-buffing makes you stronger before the fight, that is 100% true, it just doesn't in this very specific scenario that doesn't exist. You lose a combat dimension throughout the whole game to accommodate this scenario that doesn't exist.

But this scenario exists when I play, so I care about it. I prefer being able to cast Haste during every single encounter than having Heroism on a single character, but finishing the adventuring day with an unused slot means I wasted my resources. This resource management mini-game is something I enjoy and I don't want to give it up.

everytime a spell is cast outside of battle the enemies should be randomly regenerated so you can't guess what you'll be fighting

"How dare you cast a protection spell against poison only because you're exploring the Venomous Cave of the Giant Monstrous God of All Spiders?!"

 

[Lacrymas]

But you seem to be operating on the assumption there is no resource management when there's no pre-buffing, which is demonstrably not true. Making the game and combat worse in order to accommodate a fringe freak scenario that actually doesn't happen even in a no-reload ironman run is dumb.

I urge people to give the video game adaptation of Gloomhaven a try to see what I'm talking about and how it makes the game way more tactical when there's no pre-buffing. PoE is overall too easy on the resource management front for it to be a good example.

 

[NJClaw]

But you seem to be operating on the assumption there is no resource management when there's no pre-buffing, which is demonstrably not true.

And you seem to be operating on the assumption that there is no opportunity cost when there's pre-buffing, which is demonstrably not true.

And that fringe scenario happens all the time: you used a slot on a buff but then during combat realize it would have be better spent on something else, like a blast, a debuff, or a short-term buff.

 

[Cryomancer]

A Fighter : Mr Druid, please. We are in the Forest of deadly poisons, please cast protect poison on me
Druid : I can't. The spell by some reason only works during combat
Fighter : Fine, I will attack you, so you can cast the spell and heal me
Druid : Won't work, the spell will dispel after we stop attacking
Fighter : Lets move then
....
Fighter : OMG, I got hit by a poison trap, quick cast cure poison on me!!!
Druid : let me search a enemy to attack, so I can cast cure poison on you and then protection from poison.
...
Druid : Ohh no, the Fighter is dead. If I had used a potion or item to protect vs poison instead of spell, he would be alive... Now I will have to search another bunny to start a combat and raise him.

It can happen in Lacrymas setting.

 

[Thac0]

But the idea of getting rid of pre-buffing feels to me more like a pet obsession which led to magic use feeling that bit less special in the Pillars games.

Then again there is the other extreme, Pathfinder Kingmaker which wants you to activate about 10 different prebuffs before fighting a tough encounter on difficulties higher than challenging. It is skill to know that you have to put on Communal Delay Poison, Communal Protection from Elements, 3-6 Death wards, Prayer, Haste, Bless, Enlarge and half a dozen spells more together with summons before the carnage starts? Feels more tedious to me.

I take unlimited prebuffing over no prebuffing, because prebuffing is plainly fun, but I will still advocate for my solution until a random indie developer picks it up.
Have your combat system start with a deploy phase a la Heroes of Might and Magic, Dungeon Rats many more, and implement actual rules for how many buffs you can apply in this phase.
Because the dance off apllying all buffs in under a minute and then recklessly charging into the enemy before the shortest duration runs out, and reloading if you forgot a critical one, is absolutely just tedium.

 

[Lacrymas]

But you seem to be operating on the assumption there is no resource management when there's no pre-buffing, which is demonstrably not true.

And you seem to be operating on the assumption that there is no opportunity cost when there's pre-buffing, which is demonstrably not true.

And that fringe scenario happens all the time: you used a slot on a buff but then during combat realize it would have be better spent on something else.

There is no opportunity cost when there's pre-buffing. It's all an advantage the player gets that wouldn't be there if there's no pre-buffing. This scenario is completely irrelevant for 99% of the fights in a game and to 99% of players playing that game. It gets worse when the mobs can't pre-buff. No pre-buffing also eliminates guesswork and metagaming. You don't need to know 100% what the next battle will be to know whether you should buff or not. It's way more elegant.

 

[Yosharian]

Exactly, arbitrary rules on when you can and can't cast spells are fucking retarded and completely pull you out of any immersion the game has

 

[Lacrymas]

Good mechanics and fights > subjective feelings of what is immersive. I don't think not being able to cast buffs outside of combat is immersion breaking, especially since I know it serves a combat purpose.

 

[Yosharian]

Just because most developers are too lazy or unimaginative to think of a solution to prebuffing that doesn't involve removing it completely doesn't mean that that is the only solution.

 

[Yosharian]

Good mechanics and fights > subjective feelings of what is immersive. I don't think not being able to cast buffs outside of combat is immersion breaking, especially since I know it serves a combat purpose.

Oh fuck off Lacrymas, you think removing blast spells from D&D is a good idea, your opinion is invalid

 

[Lacrymas]

Ok, you come up with a game idea that uses pre-buffing and doesn't lose a combat dimension for the vaaaaast majority of fights and playstyles. I'm all ears.

Also yes, spellcasters shouldn't have access to direct damage spells.

 

[NJClaw]

"Hey, we're entering a crypt full of undead, should we cast a protective spells against their most nefarious attacks?"

"Nah, fuck it, I want to experience the thrill of not doing anything during my first turn."

Also yes, spellcasters shouldn't have access to direct damage spells.

Here we go, boys! Time for another classic Lacrymas' thead split. This time: "Should spellcasters have access to direct damage spells?"

Infinitron chop chop, time to do your job.

 

[Cryomancer]

Is that hard to cast dispel on the player if he has 666 buffs on him?

 

[Yosharian]

Ok, you come up with a game idea that uses pre-buffing and doesn't lose a combat dimension for the vaaaaast majority of fights and playstyles. I'm all ears.

Also yes, spellcasters shouldn't have access to direct damage spells.

Enemies are allowed to prebuff also, simulate this using trigger-based spells

HOLY SHIT THAT WAS HARD

It's not like BG2 and SCS already solved this puzzle DECADES AGO

Edit: and also as Meredoth pointed out, implement proper dispelling abilities & AI into your game so that prebuffing isn't effective 100% of the time

 

[Lacrymas]

"Hey, we're entering a crypt full of undead, should we cast a protective spells against their most nefarious attacks?"

"Nah, fuck it, I want to experience the thrill of not doing anything during my first turn."

Gloomhaven actually tells you straight-up what enemies you'll be facing in a given scenario, so there's no guesswork. Prepare whatever buffs you want. You just can't cast them before the combat starts (you technically can, but I haven't come upon a scenario that doesn't start with a fight)

 

[Lacrymas]

Ok, you come up with a game idea that uses pre-buffing and doesn't lose a combat dimension for the vaaaaast majority of fights and playstyles. I'm all ears.

Also yes, spellcasters shouldn't have access to direct damage spells.

Enemies are allowed to prebuff also, simulate this using trigger-based spells

HOLY SHIT THAT WAS HARD

It's not like BG2 and SCS already solved this puzzle DECADES AGO

If you are trading pre-buffs like this, just bake the buffs into the classes and spare me minutes of pre-buffing time before every combat. And it still frees up our action economy, which is the worst effect of pre-buffing. I haven't started Pathfinder Kingmaker seriously yet because I dread the tediousness of pre-buffing (and the terrible RTwP combat, but I'll get over that)

 

[Yosharian]

CRPGs' number 1 priority is to simulate a fantasy world, because that's what role-playing games are about, SIMULATING FANTASY WORLDS. The minute you introduce retarded rules like 'no casting in combat!' to try to balance out gameplay, you are prioritising balance over SIMULATION. And thus you are making a SHIT RPG.

 

[Anonona]

Whenever someone talks about immersion over game mechanics, I cannot help but remember the awful era of game journos praising "realism and immersion" and the obssession of the masses over it that brought brown graphics, shitty military shooters like CoD which limited the numbers of weapons you could carry because it was realistic, and the dead of shit ton of genres because of it, from platformers to TB and RTwP RPGs in general because "lol, why are characters standing around without doing nothing? That is not realistic!!!." Those were the precursors of the decline we are nowadays.

Immersion is nice and all, but is a poor argument to defend any game mechanic.

 

[NJClaw]

If you are trading pre-buffs like this, just bake the buffs into the classes and spare me minutes of pre-buffing time before the combat.

How is it possible that you can't conceive the invention of a comfortable piece of UI that allows the player to configure its buffs in a series of presets invocable with a single click?

 

[Yosharian]

Ok, you come up with a game idea that uses pre-buffing and doesn't lose a combat dimension for the vaaaaast majority of fights and playstyles. I'm all ears.

Also yes, spellcasters shouldn't have access to direct damage spells.

Enemies are allowed to prebuff also, simulate this using trigger-based spells

HOLY SHIT THAT WAS HARD

It's not like BG2 and SCS already solved this puzzle DECADES AGO

If you are trading pre-buffs like this, just bake the buffs into the classes and spare me minutes of pre-buffing time before every combat. And it still frees up our action economy, which is the worst effect of pre-buffing. I haven't started Pathfinder Kingmaker seriously yet because I dread the tediousness of pre-buffing (and the terrible RTwP combat, but I'll get over that)

Shifting the goalposts, we weren't talking about the tedium of prebuffing, only its effect on balance.

How to solve prebuffing tedium: set up special sequencer spells that allow the storing of buff spells in them, only castable outside of combat, infinite number of spells allowed. Player can cast the sequencer at any time and all buffs are immediately cast, providing spell slots are available. Sequencer automatically calculates the time needed to cast each spell and subtracts that number of rounds from the spells' durations.

WOW THAT WAS SO HARD