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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
But BG3 is an early access game and that might change. Or it might not. Regardless, that wasn't my point. My point was that verticality in BG3 is actually done better because the maps don't look like attempts at cubism and are just normal terrain that features verticality because that's normal in a 3D space.
 

Anonona

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Oct 24, 2019
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Yeah, that will be modded out promptly.

Has Swen said anything about changing the jump from bonus action to regular action? Seems like it could be changed easily. Also they could make so it provoke AoO. Players would still have tools for free mobility but positioning and locking down opponents would matter more. It seems strange to me that they wouldn't change that after some of the changes they made like with firebolt and all. And it is still very early in development for what we know, so it wouldn't be impossible for it to change, right?
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
There are already mods that make all these types of moves into regular actions, like they are supposed to be.
 

Anonona

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But BG3 is an early access game and that might change. Or it might not.

I would say probably not. I think they are reusing the engine from the D:OS games and I believe it doesn't have the capability to make true flying enemies sadly.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
Speaking of the BG legacy there’s $10M-$10B+ worth of IP to be had for anyone willing to sit down with 5-10 people who really understand/appreciate the 2-3.5/PF ruleset (a group that includes Soyer and Sven themselves ironically) to come up with an industry standard easy-to-use prebuffing interface along the lines of the Deadfire AI config or Wrath rest menu.

You’d just need a default similar to a spellbook that lets you tweak the specifics in three categories (Hr/lvl, min/lvl, rnd/lvl) depending on situation.

Should quickly become as routine as the Gold Box Fix button. Would transform the genre and remedy Soyer’s most grevious error.
I'm sure you realize this just removes the need to think about prebuffing. Just remove prebuffing entirely and the result will be the same with one less click to boot.

I dunno, pre-buffs allow for a higher ceiling. What I mean is, if you think of lower levels without pre-buffing, the enemies can be fairly weak, suitable for jumped-up farmboys. Then as the enemies get stronger, more eldritch, more evil, godlike, etc., pre-buffing starts coming into the arsenal to match that increasing strength and fearsomeness of the foes. If you don't have that, then enemies have got to stay pretty much at the same flat level, without a lot of incline - or (if you want to keep the enemy progression) you have to do the buffing in combat, which (unless it's just like one special buff) is perhaps even more tedious than doing it before combat (in the sense that you're doing that kind of support job at a time when you feel you should be getting into the thick of actual fighting, and using damage or debuff spells).

The way it's done at hr/lvl, min/lvl and rnd/lvls (weak and general to strong and specific) is quite right too - the closer the time-frame to impending combat, the fewer but more powerful and more specific-to-encounter the buffs can be.

There's also the question of immersion and virtual world. When you start with only a few pre-buffs, it feels part of the virtual worldeyness of the thing: psychologically (to me at least) it feels good, it feels like you're providing a magical support service to your teammates, and you're also building a sense of anticipation and apprehension re. what's to come. It's only when you start to layer on lots of prebuffs at the various timing levels that it starts to feel tedious at the meta level (the level of the player sitting in front of the computer) - IOW it's just a case of too many clicks - but the sense of it as being an important support job for the caster doesn't go away.

It doesn't have to be a meta thing either (i.e. it doesn't have to be just a UI thing), it could be incorporated into the virtual world - e.g. you charge an imp with the task of providing a "package" of pre-buffs, or you use a special magical stone for the job, or you have a special page in the grimoire or whatever, and you can adjust the "package" as you go.

I do actually like what Sawyer dd wrt RTwP - especially wrt the time-frames of how long abilities work for, and their strengths, relative to the typical amount of pausing one does in combat, etc. It's all very nicely done, very finely-tuned, and feels good in use, flows better than just the plain old D&D system; it's more tailored to the computer. But the idea of getting rid of pre-buffing feels to me more like a pet obsession which led to magic use feeling that bit less special in the Pillars games.
 

Flying Dutchman

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Well, maybe, but meanwhile in BG3 "flying creatures" are all hovering few centimeters above the ground and can ALL be hit in melee. Their "flying" trait translates just in their ability to do even bigger jumps.
In Solasta they can actually fly at several different heights and needs to be reached or shot down somehow.

Except for Solasta you reference, has flying ever been implemented well in an RPG? It feels like flying ends up being nothing more than a buff that prevents certain attacks but forget simple things like inability to "fly" over pits/drops or actually avoid melee damage (unless the flying individual is also engaged in hand to hand combat vs. ranged).

I will prep for the stream of "well, idiot..." but my mind was blank.
 

Gargaune

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Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,219
despite the crying from a select few most of the site will buy and enjoy the game
Look, seeing as I've already bought it, I'd very much like to enjoy it. I just need one thing - fix the fucking controls. The other problems could be made up for with content, but the controls are a constant and insufferable shitfest and a perfect opportunity for Larian to invent Shift+Click and score a Nobel prize. You think you could run that upstairs to Swen? I'll give you a brofist if you do.
 

CodexTotalWar

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My fabulously optimistic hope for this game is that we get a F:NV scenario (maybe without the time crunch) - and a more competent studio is given the BG3 assets to make a better spin-off.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
The question is whether we buy, and promote, the next one. D:OS II and BG II (and to some extent 5E) earned this purchase.
As if theres so many releases we can afford to be picky. There's WOTR coming which offer much more theory crafting then you get BG3 . After that nothing at all announced .So of course everyone will rush the next one if its half decent . Even if it's released in an unplayable state with ton of bugs the next big title coming will sell.

My queue is pretty full, but as with P:K Wrath has enough replayability it will occupy a big chunk of it for the foreseeable future. I’ll be playing a decent amount of BG3 no matter how much it sux just to get some experience with 5E for the first time.

But if it’s bad that will be a strong motivation to avoid next title and I’m sure other 5E games will be along eventually.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Speaking of the BG legacy there’s $10M-$10B+ worth of IP to be had for anyone willing to sit down with 5-10 people who really understand/appreciate the 2-3.5/PF ruleset (a group that includes Soyer and Sven themselves ironically) to come up with an industry standard easy-to-use prebuffing interface along the lines of the Deadfire AI config or Wrath rest menu.

You’d just need a default similar to a spellbook that lets you tweak the specifics in three categories (Hr/lvl, min/lvl, rnd/lvl) depending on situation.

Should quickly become as routine as the Gold Box Fix button. Would transform the genre and remedy Soyer’s most grevious error.
I'm sure you realize this just removes the need to think about prebuffing. Just remove prebuffing entirely and the result will be the same with one less click to boot.

You think about it every time you adjust the interface, just like memorizing spells or deciding which meals to cook. You should just have the option of deciding for several battles at once. It’s not like you’re not still spending a slot.

What is it with the low T crew and pre-buffing? Soyer himself said that pre-buffing was what got him (too) into gaming in the first place.

It’s his vanity (and the withering of his creative juices) and the tedium of having to input the same data repeatedly that’s the problem, not pre-buffing itself.
 

Cryomancer

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Frostfell
Here we go again!

"I hope Larian will try this game out and rebalance things back to the original 5e rules. Those rules just work."

The best thing that Larian can make is make BG3 easily moddable like NWN2, so people will mod 2E ruleset on it and remove awful companions like Astarion and other problems like hp bloat.

I'm sure you realize this just removes the need to think about prebuffing. Just remove prebuffing entirely and the result will be the same with one less click to boot.

It makes no sense. Imagine a group going into a forest with poisonous stuff. The group has protections VS poison but only use it on combat by no good reason. It is just silly. Protection vs electricity if you are fighting Will'o Wisps, Deathward if fighting undead casters and so on are rewarding preparation. Nothing wrong with that.

Why didn't Solasta's team make a game as graphically incredible as Larian?

Because Larian has over 300 employees. And the unique decent thing which this 300 employees did is graphics.

Wow verticality sounds cool let me go play soylasta as a druid.

Er, I mean warlock.

Yep. And graphics sounds cool, but let me play BG3 as a dhampir exploiter wizard. Er, I mean, as a kitsune winter witch.

...wait...


Hey at least I get to kill Astarion.

they'll be able to implement verticality like Solasta?

They are probably too occupied making gay sex scenes.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,766
mighty of you to assume i'm past the 'begging for a gift' stage of thirdworldia
I told you this before, if you keep the witty jokes coming, and you don't cut it any slack, I'll gift you a copy. No problem.

It just needs to come out already. I don't buy EA shenanigans.
For every hero that takes a stand by not purchasing clear decline, there's a fool who buys multiple copies...
Nigger, "decline" is just one small button on codex. You don't even see it.
 

Reinhardt

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Sep 4, 2015
Messages
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MUH VERTICALITY! MANY NEW! NEVA BEFORE! Lol, Disgaea had "verticality" 20 years ago. Can you throw your party members across the rift? Can you climb pyramid built of your party members? Can you disarm traps by lifting and throwing enemies at it? Can you capture enemies by throwing them to your camp and letting your unused party members beating the shit out of them?
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Larian's focus is open-ended quest design and world interactivity/reactivity. If you don't care about that, then maybe you won't like BG3 very much. I consider it to be at the core of RPGs and something from tabletop that many RPGs are sorely missing.
I consider it far more important than shitting high level lightning bolts or flying combat or whatever.
 

Anonona

Learned
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Oct 24, 2019
Messages
570
MUH VERTICALITY! MANY NEW! NEVA BEFORE! Lol, Disgaea had "verticality" 20 years ago. Can you throw your party members across the rift? Can you climb pyramid built of your party members? Can you disarm traps by lifting and throwing enemies at it? Can you capture enemies by throwing them to your camp and letting your unused party members beating the shit out of them?

Hell, you could even say that there was verticality even before. Already in Tactics Ogre you had maps with verticality, fliying units and such. And in FF Tactics you have the jump stats, height affecting the range of spells and bows, and being able to push enemies to fall to their doom among other things.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
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Sep 4, 2015
Messages
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MUH VERTICALITY! MANY NEW! NEVA BEFORE! Lol, Disgaea had "verticality" 20 years ago. Can you throw your party members across the rift? Can you climb pyramid built of your party members? Can you disarm traps by lifting and throwing enemies at it? Can you capture enemies by throwing them to your camp and letting your unused party members beating the shit out of them?

Hell, you could even say that there was verticality even before. Already in Tactics Ogre you had maps with verticality, fliying units and such. And in FF Tactics you have the jump stats, height affecting the range of spells and bows, and being able to push enemies to fall to their doom among other things.
Still Disgaea was DOS 0. It even had very advanced barrelmancy.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
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Frostfell
interactivity/reactivity.(...)I consider it far more important than shitting high level lightning bolts or flying combat or whatever.

Interactivity is more a gimmicky. I liked it much more on Solasta.

As for level range. Level range needs to be consistent with the campaign. What I really hate about most Dungeon & Kobolds low level CRPG's is that they often wanna have low level cap due balancefagottry when the campaign demands higher level to make sense and end up destroying so many iconic enemies.

Dark Sun : Shattered Lands is an example. You kill a templar while escaping the slave arena, at lv 3 you kill members of the elite of the servants of the sorcerer king which trained his entire life. Lv 3 is the bare minimum to have a chance of surviving in Athas. It is not a level to be engaging with templars. You should try to run from then at this level, not fight then and pray that they will not wanna to waste his time on weaklings. In Wake of the Ravager, you also fight a templar relative early on, but it is not a cakewalk and it is a far tougher fight and the non combat route is the best route to solve the quest.

And is not as if I enjoy other games like Wrath only due the higher level cap. If OwlCat had limited the PC level to 12 on Beta, I still would love the game. Love the quests, the crusade mechanics, mythic paths, companion and other things. Same with KoTC2. Even If I could't use high level magic on the game, I still would be extremely hyped for it due the amazing AI, amazing quests among other things. Talking about Lich questline, the powers that you get following the Lich quest are interesting? Yes. But the quest involving becoming one is even better. I will not spoil, but a lot of interesting things happens after you create your zigguratt and having a Lich mentor changes completely the dynamic of the Crusade.

----------

That said, what I can get on BG3 and not on other CRPG's besides pretty graphics?

I also think that Sword Coast is overrated. There are so many amazing places on D&D. Why every campaign and every CRPG adaptation needs to focus on Faerun? If was up to me to write BG3 story, I would make something like, mysterious fog appeared and now, the city of baldur's gate is in a demiplane of dread. In gameplay, the game would be like a darker version of Shadows of Amn, and focused mostly on open world chapter 2 style adventuring and exploration. After gathering a lot of clues, they will understand that experiments with the descendants of the Bhaalspawn attracted the attention of the Dark Powers. The game will focus on a lv 4~13 campaign, with multiple endings, freeing the city being the good one and becoming a Dark Lord, the evil one.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
I dunno, pre-buffs allow for a higher ceiling.
A higher ceiling of what? It's definitely not the skill ceiling. It lowers the skill ceiling by not only buffing your stats before the combat starts, but also by freeing your action economy to concentrate only on the mobs/dealing damage/debuffing/etc. People think it raises the skill ceiling because they can't win without pre-buffing and pre-buffing makes them win so pre-buffing is obviously a sign of skill. It's like someone insisting that the training wheels on his bicycle make him a more skillful cyclist. Pre-buffing is training wheels.

What is it with the low T crew and pre-buffing?
What is low T is wanting pre-buffing to lower the difficulty of tactical fights. No pre-buffing also eats up your spell slots because you have to cast those buffs in combat instead.
 
Last edited:

Reinhardt

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If was up to me to write BG3 story, I would make something like, mysterious fog appeared and now, the city of baldur's gate is in a demiplane of dread. In gameplay, the game would be like a darker version of Shadows of Amn, and focused mostly on open world chapter 2 style adventuring and exploration. After gathering a lot of clues, they will understand that experiments with the descendants of the Bhaalspawn attracted the attention of the Dark Powers. The game will focus on a lv 4~13 campaign, with multiple endings, freeing the city being the good one and becoming a Dark Lord, the evil one.
Thanks God it was not up to you...
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
A higher ceiling of what? It's definitely not the skill ceiling. It lowers the skill ceiling by not only buffing your stats before the combat starts, but also by freeing your action economy to concentrate only on the mobs/dealing damage/debuffing/etc. People think it raises the skill ceiling because they can't win without pre-buffing and pre-buffing makes them win so pre-buffing is obviously a sign of skill.
Pre-buffing done right allows to decide between various different strategies depending on what you want to do with your characters.

It can go from something simple like "I want this character to be more resilient so I will use the +2 to all ST buff instead of the +4 to STR one" to something more involved like "I want to rely on difficult terrain effects, so I'm going to use Mass Feather Step" or maybe "I want to squeeze everything I can from my Fireball, so I'm going to use Protection from Energy (Fire) on my warrior". Pre-buffing doesn't have to be a binary choice between having all the best buffs and not being buffed at all: if the buffs are interesting and your slots are limited, you can select them according to your playstyle.
 

Anonona

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Interactivity is more a gimmicky. I liked it much more on Solasta.

I beat Solasta and to be honest there isn't really almost any interactivity. Most maps have a single path forward, while occasionally pushing rocks or pillars to move around. There are instances like the windows in the castle, lightning torches, some environmental traps you can use, but to be honest most of them are mostly in the first half of the game (which I think was most the polished part of Solasta). Most quest have a single solution, most spells doesn't have that many functions beyond their effects, and things like flying is strangely limited. Like I though I may had fucked myself over because I didn't have the Fliying spell, but to be honest, except for one instance where I used a potion of flying instead, never really missed it. The world is designed as a series of arenas, like a straight pathway with very short deviation to find a bit of loot.

Also kind of funny how some of the hardest late game fights also doesn't really have that much verticality or darkness to be honest. Hell the final area has almost none compared with the beginning, and all if not almost all arenas are fully illuminated.
 

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