Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Atlantico]

As for the Avatar trilogy and the Time of Troubles, it was indeed used as a justification for various 2nd edition AD&D rules changes such as the elimination of the assassin class, rather than simply applying such changes retroactively. For example, the Forgotten Realms had a patron deity specifically for assassins named Bhaal, and as part of the Avatar storyline this god was destroyed along with all members of the assassin class, rather than take the option of having all assassins retroactively become thieves or fighters who practiced assassination.

Cyric took over all of Bhaal's duties after Bhaal was killed. Cyric became the god of murder and assassins (and a number of other things).

That being said, a sub-class removal is hardly a change in rules - the entire psionics class was removed from 2nd edition, until the Complete Psionics Handbook was released.

Assassins were then introduced as a class kit in the Thieves' Handbook - and indeed that's really all they ever were, a subclass of Thieves.

Like a lot of things in 2nd edition, they were moved around, to streamline and to sell more books. In the end, you could have your 2nd edition be exactly like 1st edition, if that's what you wanted. If you wanted it official, you could buy the extra books with the extra information.

The Avatar trilogy had nothing to do with rule-changes between 1st and 2nd edition AD&D. It was simply a function of needing to publish the Forgotten Realms for the 2nd edition - not because the original Forgotten Realms setting was in any way incompatible.

In the 2nd edition Gold Box FR setting there was even a leaflet / addendum which explained in one page what you had to keep in mind if you had 1st edition rulebooks and the Gold Box FR setting.

 

[Shrimp]

"It is a video game that brings the experience that you get when you are playing a tabletop game to computers or consoles. - No, I didn't say that."

Do you think he was referring to the [confirmed] Stadia version or should this be considered a confirmation that they're working on a console release as well?
Since both Original Sin 1 and 2 also were released on PS4/XB1 it shouldn't be a surprise they considered a console release, but if it's being developed with consoles in mind right from the start it's likely going to affect certain design choices during the development process.

 

[agris]

Shrimp of course there's a console version planned, but that news would significantly undercut Stadia's value proposition. Google has obviously paid for a form of exclusivity - in return for delayed or diminished console sales, they've offered Larian (and/or other stakeholders) financial recompense for deploying to their system first.

Think about it - Stadia only works with a controller as far as we know. That means BG3 will be designed with a controller in mind. Why, then, would consoles not be a targeted platform on release? Well, there's a few reasons. Console hardware, generations changing, polish required for PC release vs console release, etc. Those are all good-ish reasons, but we haven't heard anything about those at all.

Separately, we know from the ars technica article what Stadia's business model will be. $130 for service activation + first controller + $10 a month + whatever the cost of BG3 will be on Stadia's platform (some modes of gameplay are probably less than the flat-out purchase cost on Steam). Now, assume you have a shit PC that isn't capable of playing BG3 how you want to play it (on couch, with SMAA 4x and v-synch, whatever). But you have a PS4. Say you were really interested in playing BG3, and your options were $60 on your console or $140+ to google. Which would you pick? Add in the logistics of connecting your PC to your TV (or play on your small monitor, yuck).

That's the line of thought that gets you to the Stadia announcement w/o console, but with console obviously planned for the first contractually available date. That's how you get "No, I didn't say that.". He may have not intended to say it, but he surely knows it's coming. Because it's natural.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

So, Lilura you would say ToEE, and JA2 are better than D:OS’ns? I will play them now and you have me convinced

She convinced me to play ToEE and JA2 through her blog and I can say that, while the latter will sit in my library for a bit, ToEE is pretty fucking cool and well worth your time, the point I think it will actually spoil my future experiences with RtwP because holy shit is this turn based system great

ToEE is 3.x in true cRPG format. Seriously, other than one or two minor things, it is basically 3.x on computer.

Isn’t the major flaw of ToEE the encounter design? Everything else I’ve read about it is perfect.

I was comparing the PnP rules as implemented by ToEE. One of the minor differences is heavy crossbows only requiring a move action to reload (it is full action in PnP), the other is how it changed the stats of Scat and Fragglerock.

Other than that, ToEE implemented the PnP rules faithfully.

Encounterwise, I don't really see a problem with it. There were some nonsense like fighting a Balor at level 10, but that is a relic of 1E where level 10 is the start of epic (i.e., 1E L10 is 3.x's L20).

its such a tragedy endless modules were not pushed out in that engine. If somebody were to to a kickstarter with that very idea in mind to simply put polished AD&D modules into that engine over and over with some overriding way to carry adventure parties from one to another I and I bet many others would pay very good money to see it happen. I honestly think this is what the community wants and has wanted for years, why it has not been done and why it continues to not be done eludes me. Just fucking churn out modules in that engine or a very very similar engine, WTF?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Cyric took over all of Bhaal's duties after Bhaal was killed. Cyric became the god of murder and assassins (and a number of other things).

That being said, a sub-class removal is hardly a change in rules - the entire psionics class was removed from 2nd edition, until the Complete Psionics Handbook was released.

Assassins were then introduced as a class kit in the Thieves' Handbook - and indeed that's really all they ever were, a subclass of Thieves.

Like a lot of things in 2nd edition, they were moved around, to streamline and to sell more books. In the end, you could have your 2nd edition be exactly like 1st edition, if that's what you wanted. If you wanted it official, you could buy the extra books with the extra information.

The Avatar trilogy had nothing to do with rule-changes between 1st and 2nd edition AD&D. It was simply a function of needing to publish the Forgotten Realms for the 2nd edition - not because the original Forgotten Realms setting was in any way incompatible.

In the 2nd edition Gold Box FR setting there was even a leaflet / addendum which explained in one page what you had to keep in mind if you had 1st edition rulebooks and the Gold Box FR setting.

The assassin class was introduced into D&D in Supplement II: Blackmoor by Dave Arneson, distinct from the thief class introduced by Gary Gygax's Supplement I: Greyhawk, and continued as a separate class in AD&D 1st edition, but it was eliminated as a separate class in AD&D 2nd edition. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Set of 1987 explicitly included members of the assassin class in the setting, but they were physically eliminated from the Forgotten Realms during the events of the Avatar trilogy, as described in Forgotten Realms Adventures:

Assassins no longer exist as a player character class in AD&D® 2nd Edition. This is not to say that individuals do not take money for killing other characters, or that they do not organize into assassins ’guilds, only that their special assassin abilities no longer function. “Assassin,” in effect, becomes a job description, like farmer, merchant, or adventurer. Wizards can be assassins, as can evil priests, fighters, and rogues. The nature of assassination is such that those who regularly perform it can only be of evil alignment.

Players running assassins under the original AD&D rules have two options available to them:
•They may decide that their assassin character was slain when Bhaal sucked the spirits of assassins into his own form. The player can create a new character, but with the following benefit: for every level of experience the late assassin possessed,
the new character can add one point to an ability score. A maximum of three points can be added to any one ability score, and
the abilities cannot be raised above racial maximums or above 19 in any event. The new character is not required to be of evil
alignment.
The assassin loses all former assassin abilities and is considered a thief with the same number of experience points as he had as an assassin (this may increase the new thief’s level and hit points). The new thief then recieves 60 points to be scattered among the thieving base scores as described on pages 38-39 of the Player’s Handbook. The new thief also gains 30 points per additional level up to two levels below the thief’s current level (a 9th level former assassin/new thief gains additional
points as a 7th level thief— 60 for the first level plus 6 times 30 in this case). The restrictions on allocations are those listed on pages 38-39 of the Player’s Handbook.

Cyric, after ascending to godhood, gained the portfolio of "death, murder, the dead, strife, tyranny, and lies", the first two of which were Bhaal's domain.

It wasn't a necessity for TSR to create an in-setting justification for rules changes from 1st edition AD&D to the 2nd edition; they didn't bother doing so for either Greyhawk or Dragonlance, but they decided to do so for what they had intentionally established in 1987 as the new, flagship, baseline campaign setting of AD&D.

 

[RaptorRex888]

>multiplayer

So we can pretty much write this shit off now right?

 

[Curratum]

>multiplayer

So we can pretty much write this shit off now right?

You know, I'm down for a game that is literally like how a large D&D module works at the table. There is no MC, a party of adventurers tackles a given problem or situation. You can do a lot of great adventuring without being focused on a single player character.

Tabletop D&D is literally that - a multiplayer game.

 

[Yosharian]

>multiplayer

So we can pretty much write this shit off now right?

Why would you write the game off for having multiplayer? I feel like this is obvious, but... D&D is a multiplayer game

 

[Space Satan]

BG1 and BG2 multiplayer never ticked for me. It was boring and mostly annoying, plus, modems tend to break connections all the time.

 

[Grunker]

>multiplayer

So we can pretty much write this shit off now right?

Original Baldur’s Gate also had multiplayer (it sucked)

 

[Rahdulan]

BG1 and BG2 multiplayer never ticked for me. It was boring and mostly annoying, plus, modems tend to break connections all the time.

Problem with multiplayer in BGs was it meant you were basically choosing to ignore the companions who were a big draw of those games. Larian found a formula that makes both aspects work in a CRPG and I think that co-op angle may be responsible for putting Original Sin games more out there than mainstream may have expected. After all, you get to play a grand CRPG with your buddy and it can be done in local split-screen. How often do you get to do that?

My main use for multiplayer in BGs was spoofing it so I could create a full party.

 

[Grunker]

Stats no longer go above 20 now, including with racial mods or even magic items.

Oh, you’re in for a treat if you haven’t read up on 5E yet

Google “bounded accuracy 5E” for instance. Pure Sawyer <3

I’ve played quite a bit of it so far and it’s really great, because the creators knew the draws of oldschool DND and were able to swindle the grognards with feels while actually making a pretty modern game and by far the most balanced iteration of D&D yet.

 

[Grunker]

So is it gonna be the end for me when it's over? Will I have to unironically buy KotC to feel alive again?

ToEE is the only game I know with that kind of attention to detail of a PnP ruleset. It is also based off a classic oDnD PnP module, which explains the world building and characters. If those are the things you are looking for, you aren't going to find anything even remotely close in games released in the last 20 or so years.

KotC is definitely “remotely close”

 

[Yosharian]

Stats no longer go above 20 now, including with racial mods or even magic items.

Oh, you’re in for a treat if you haven’t read up on 5E yet

Google “bounded accuracy 5E” for instance.

I’ve played quite a bit of it so far and it’s really great, because the creators knew the draws of oldschool DND and were able to swindle the grognards with feels while actually making a pretty modern game and by far the most balanced iteration of D&D yet.

> Stats no longer go above 20 now, including with racial mods or even magic items.

https://open5e.com/equipment/magic-items/belt-of-giant-strength.html

 

[Grunker]

Stats no longer go above 20 now, including with racial mods or even magic items.

Oh, you’re in for a treat if you haven’t read up on 5E yet

Google “bounded accuracy 5E” for instance.

I’ve played quite a bit of it so far and it’s really great, because the creators knew the draws of oldschool DND and were able to swindle the grognards with feels while actually making a pretty modern game and by far the most balanced iteration of D&D yet.

> Stats no longer go above 20 now, including with racial mods or even magic items.

https://open5e.com/equipment/magic-items/belt-of-giant-strength.html

Yeah as a categorical statement it’s false and there are way more ways than the belt, but as a general rule it’s true. Also one the few things I dislike about 5E is that they went way overboard toning down the importance of equipment/loot.

 

[Zero Credibility]

For me the biggest problem of 5E is lack of options for character building compared to, say, Pathfinder. I wish there were more opportunities to customize my character, at least a feat pick at level 1. Oh, and 5E archetypes are a pitiful shadow of Pathfinder archetypes.

 

[Yosharian]

For me the biggest problem of 5E is lack of options for character building compared to, say, Pathfinder. I wish there were more opportunities to customize my character, at least a feat pick at level 1. Oh, and 5E archetypes are a pitiful shadow of Pathfinder archetypes.

One of the biggest issues for me is the 'feat or ASI' system.

 

[Cael]

Stats no longer go above 20 now, including with racial mods or even magic items.

Oh, you’re in for a treat if you haven’t read up on 5E yet

Google “bounded accuracy 5E” for instance.

I’ve played quite a bit of it so far and it’s really great, because the creators knew the draws of oldschool DND and were able to swindle the grognards with feels while actually making a pretty modern game and by far the most balanced iteration of D&D yet.

> Stats no longer go above 20 now, including with racial mods or even magic items.

https://open5e.com/equipment/magic-items/belt-of-giant-strength.html

Yeah as a categorical statement it’s false and there are way more ways than the belt, but as a general rule it’s true. Also one the few things I dislike about 5E is that they went way overboard toning down the importance of equipment/loot.

Looks like someone at fucktards of the coast played Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic too many times. The max stat of 20 is straight out copied from that.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I saw the Screens captured by camera in the Belgian TV interview. The game will be an ActionRPG akin to the Witcher but with Companions. A hybrid of DAI/Witcher but with no pause system. Mark my words. Not that this is a bad thing but I doubt Larian can pull it off. The Witcher was elevated above its stature because of the strength of its writing and its source material. Larian previous work leaves much to be desired (when it comes to writing) and I doubt they will be able to pull it off.

The screens make it certain it'll be 3d. All that other shit you said has no basis.

 

[Grunker]

For me the biggest problem of 5E is lack of options for character building compared to, say, Pathfinder. I wish there were more opportunities to customize my character, at least a feat pick at level 1. Oh, and 5E archetypes are a pitiful shadow of Pathfinder archetypes.

Check out the Talent supplements over at DM’s Guild. We use those for exactly that and they’re awesome. Well worth the dough

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

So, Lilura

its such a tragedy endless modules were not pushed out in that engine. If somebody were to to a kickstarter with that very idea in mind to simply put polished AD&D modules into that engine over and over with some overriding way to carry adventure parties from one to another I and I bet many others would pay very good money to see it happen. I honestly think this is what the community wants and has wanted for years, why it has not been done and why it continues to not be done eludes me. Just fucking churn out modules in that engine or a very very similar engine, WTF?

what do you think is fabulously optimistic about that statement infitron? You are such a weird little guy, its hard to even understand what motivates you. A kind of dislike of actual RPG's or something as far as I can tell? Its bizarre.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I think licensing those modules, for one thing, would have made the endeavor non-viable economically.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I think licensing those modules, for one thing, would have made the endeavor non-viable economically.

maybe, but that's not why he does it imo. Any positive comment about pathfinder before it came out same thing from him. He dislikes D&D or something maybe, not sure. or maybe you are right,and I am seeing more than there is...

 

[hexer]

A YT comment below the trailer...

 

[Efe]

The whole Time of Troubles affair was basically an in-setting justification for the changes in AD&D from 1e to 2e

AFAIK was no change between 1st and 2nd editions with regards to gods, if anything the 2nd edition took the idea of killing a god off the table - an idea which did exist in 1st edition.

After all, 2nd edition was not a re-write like the munchkin 3rd edition was, but a polished, marketable, organized and playtested 1st edition. The rules are the same between them, the tables are the same, the classes are the same - with some minor nips and tucks. It's perfectly reasonable to consider the 1st and 2nd edition to be the same game and the denomination 2nd edition fits very well.

The Times of Trouble affair was written with much fanfare from TSR, to change the setting, so TSR had a plausible reason to sell the Forgotten Realms setting again (now in a gold box!) and all the new source books. The map changed, new characters were introduced, the factions evolved and so on.

The Avatar trilogy was not written to clarify gods in the FR or their relationship with 2nd edition AD&D.

It was written for marketing reasons, to encourage people to buy the 2nd edition FR boxed set, because otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to do that - the difference between 1st and 2nd edition AD&D didn't really affect the FR setting.

https://twitter.com/TDenningauthor/status/1137860389755072512