Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[NJClaw]

I get triggered every time I hear someone say "tank/dps" in the context of tabletop and normal crpgs.

"Tank" and "damage dealer" are two of the roles that recent editions of D&D are designed around (I can for sure say this for D&D 3.x, 4 and 5).

 

[rhollis]

You have never played D&D 5, right? Each class can fill so many more roles. Druids, clerics and barbarians make excellent tanks, fighters and rogues are the best damage dealers (both ranged and melee). And there are many more examples. You can build very diverse party combinations even with 4 slots, but it would obviously be more fun with 5 or 6.

Right. Never tried 5e. Please enlighten me. Can these guys actually perform as well as a pure class or are they more like a watered down jack-of-all-trades. This is important given the supposedly "brutal encounters".

Do we still need rogue or bard for locks and arcane for control? Because then you have just two remaining party members to experiment with (tactically speaking--Larian of course guaranteed we will be able to experiment in other ways with all of them).

 

[Tacgnol]

You have never played D&D 5, right? Each class can fill so many more roles. Druids, clerics and barbarians make excellent tanks, fighters and rogues are the best damage dealers (both ranged and melee). And there are many more examples. You can build very diverse party combinations even with 4 slots, but it would obviously be more fun with 5 or 6.

Right. Never tried 5e. Please enlighten me. Can these guys actually perform as well as a pure class or are they more like a watered down jack-of-all-trades. This is important given the supposedly "brutal encounters".

Do we still need rogue or bard for locks and arcane for control? Because then you have just two remaining party members to experiment with (tactically speaking--Larian of course guaranteed we will be able to experiment in other ways with all of them).

It depends what sort of options Larian gives you.

Take our ongoing Pathfinder game for instance, my Barbarian is the groups resident door/chest opener. He has an adamantine weapon that can easily deal with locks. So he just smashes things open.

 

[Terenty]

What can you tell us about BG3, the successor to the legendary BG series?

Swen: you've never seen so much CINEMATICS in a game before!

 

[Sacibengala]

IGN is sold...or sellout hacks?

 

[Dramart]

They are leaning into the cinematic crap because that's normie speak. Like the noises you make when you want to attract the attention of a cat. They also have to justify the budget somehow, but I can't shake off the feeling they could've made this game with a much lower budget if they didn't create all those cinematics (and voice acting) and it would've been a much better economic decision.

The cinematics is also a bad economic decision because all the modern fans who liked ME, DA, romances and that stuff would complain. And I believe they play more for the story, the world and the companions and not for the gameplay. It's a good decision for them having cinematics, you can skip them if you dont like them.

 

[Sacibengala]

What can you tell us about BG3, the successor to the legendary BG series?

Swen: you've never seen so much CINEMATICS in a game before!

Good luck for them to beat witcher 3. And witcher done it right.

 

[FranticDistortion]

You have never played D&D 5, right? Each class can fill so many more roles. Druids, clerics and barbarians make excellent tanks, fighters and rogues are the best damage dealers (both ranged and melee). And there are many more examples. You can build very diverse party combinations even with 4 slots, but it would obviously be more fun with 5 or 6.

Right. Never tried 5e. Please enlighten me. Can these guys actually perform as well as a pure class or are they more like a watered down jack-of-all-trades. This is important given the supposedly "brutal encounters".

Do we still need rogue or bard for locks and arcane for control? Because then you have just two remaining party members to experiment with (tactically speaking--Larian of course guaranteed we will be able to experiment in other ways with all of them).

Demo had skill system and skills can be leveled independently from what class you pick (athletics, locks, Persuasion etc).

 

[rhollis]

Take our ongoing Pathfinder game for instance, my Barbarian is the groups resident door/chest opener. He has an adamantine weapon that can easily deal with locks. So he just smashes things open.

You have never played D&D 5, right? Each class can fill so many more roles. Druids, clerics and barbarians make excellent tanks, fighters and rogues are the best damage dealers (both ranged and melee). And there are many more examples. You can build very diverse party combinations even with 4 slots, but it would obviously be more fun with 5 or 6.

Right. Never tried 5e. Please enlighten me. Can these guys actually perform as well as a pure class or are they more like a watered down jack-of-all-trades. This is important given the supposedly "brutal encounters".

Do we still need rogue or bard for locks and arcane for control? Because then you have just two remaining party members to experiment with (tactically speaking--Larian of course guaranteed we will be able to experiment in other ways with all of them).

It depends what sort of options Larian gives you.

Take our ongoing Pathfinder game for instance, my Barbarian is the groups resident door/chest opener. He has an adamantine weapon that can easily deal with locks. So he just smashes things open.

OK and everyone can trap spot but what about disarm? Who gets proficiency with thieves tools?

Or Moon druid to tank, warlock hexblade to tank, cleric to tank , sorcerer divine soul to heal, bard to heal, barbarian, fighter to dps and even paladin oath of conquest to CC with fears ,full charisma build, so many options....Sad to see even old timer like crispy saying d&d is going downhill while its complete opposite since 5E...People should really try playing it.

Mortmal, you seem to have a lot of experience with these 5e class variants, are you telling me those variants you mention would be just as good in those roles or are you handicapping yourself by choosing them?

 

[NJClaw]

You have never played D&D 5, right? Each class can fill so many more roles. Druids, clerics and barbarians make excellent tanks, fighters and rogues are the best damage dealers (both ranged and melee). And there are many more examples. You can build very diverse party combinations even with 4 slots, but it would obviously be more fun with 5 or 6.

Right. Never tried 5e. Please enlighten me. Can these guys actually perform as well as a pure class or are they more like a watered down jack-of-all-trades. This is important given the supposedly "brutal encounters".

Do we still need rogue or bard for locks and arcane for control? Because then you have just two remaining party members to experiment with (tactically speaking--Larian of course guaranteed we will be able to experiment in other ways with all of them).

Druids, clerics, barbarians, fighters and paladins make perfectly fine tanks, absolutely not "watered down jack-of-all-trades". Each class has its own way to do it, but they all work.
You don't need a rogue or a bard for lockpicking, almost everyone can become proficient with the right tools and cover that role. If you take a bard or a rogue it's because you want their other features in addition to the lockpicking.
Arcane casters excel at cc, but druids and partially cleric can cover this role without problems. So you can choose between Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, Druid and Cleric.

"Wizard, Bard, Rogue and Cleric", "Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Bard" or "Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Cleric" are all perfectly fine parties.

Obviously it all comes down to a single question: what archetypes Larian is going to give us for each class and what balance changes are they going to implement.

 

[NJClaw]

Take our ongoing Pathfinder game for instance, my Barbarian is the groups resident door/chest opener. He has an adamantine weapon that can easily deal with locks. So he just smashes things open.

You have never played D&D 5, right? Each class can fill so many more roles. Druids, clerics and barbarians make excellent tanks, fighters and rogues are the best damage dealers (both ranged and melee). And there are many more examples. You can build very diverse party combinations even with 4 slots, but it would obviously be more fun with 5 or 6.

Right. Never tried 5e. Please enlighten me. Can these guys actually perform as well as a pure class or are they more like a watered down jack-of-all-trades. This is important given the supposedly "brutal encounters".

Do we still need rogue or bard for locks and arcane for control? Because then you have just two remaining party members to experiment with (tactically speaking--Larian of course guaranteed we will be able to experiment in other ways with all of them).

It depends what sort of options Larian gives you.

Take our ongoing Pathfinder game for instance, my Barbarian is the groups resident door/chest opener. He has an adamantine weapon that can easily deal with locks. So he just smashes things open.

OK and everyone can trap spot but what about disarm? Who gets proficiency with thieves tools?

Or Moon druid to tank, warlock hexblade to tank, cleric to tank , sorcerer divine soul to heal, bard to heal, barbarian, fighter to dps and even paladin oath of conquest to CC with fears ,full charisma build, so many options....Sad to see even old timer like crispy saying d&d is going downhill while its complete opposite since 5E...People should really try playing it.

Mortmal, you seem to have a lot of experience with these 5e class variants, are you telling me those variants you mention would be just as good in those roles or are you handicapping yourself by choosing them?

To disarm traps you need proficiency with a tool and you can get that through your background.

As for the second point, you are absolutely not handicapping yourself. Every class shines at different levels. For the first levels and the last ones, a druid is unmatched as a tank, far better than a fighter.

 

[Tacgnol]

Mortmal, you seem to have a lot of experience with these 5e class variants, are you telling me those variants you mention would be just as good in those roles or are you handicapping yourself by choosing them?

Many of these variants will have advantages over traditional classes. Besides, people normally play for class fantasy, not being 10% more efficient. That's mega munchkin territory.

 

[rhollis]

Mortmal, you seem to have a lot of experience with these 5e class variants, are you telling me those variants you mention would be just as good in those roles or are you handicapping yourself by choosing them?

Many of these variants will have advantages over traditional classes. Besides, people normally play for class fantasy, not being 10% more efficient. That's mega munchkin territory.

Yeah. Just want to make sure you don't have to lower difficulty or something to make them work.

To disarm traps you need proficiency with a tool and you can get that through your background.

As for the second point, you are absolutely not handicapping yourself. Every class shines at different levels. For the first levels and the last ones, a druid is unmatched as a tank, far better than a fighter.

Sounds pretty good.

Thanks both. 4 people party seems like it will work out pretty well under 5E.

 

[Spectacle]

I get triggered every time I hear someone say "tank/dps" in the context of tabletop and normal crpgs.

"Tank" and "damage dealer" are two of the roles that recent editions of D&D are designed around (I can for sure say this for D&D 3.x, 4 and 5).

In 5E fighters, paladins and barbarians have the best defenses and the best melee damage. On the other hand it's very hard to actually "tank", since there is little mechanical support to encourage enemies to attack you instead of the squishies. You basically have to stand in the front and hope the DM takes the bait.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

So that's a no then. I thought this was a site full of monocled patricians with scrutinizing tastes. Not a bunch of hype machine retards who get super excited just because something is turn based. Even if I was super into turn based games everything else about this seems like shit.

It's the first turn-based D&D game in what, 15+ years? Yea, that's objectively enough to get excited about.

Subjectively - the reasons for hype will vary from person to person.

It was Ok. We shall see how epic larian "writings" style shows itself trough the game. Maybe they managed to keep it minimal.

Well, there was less of it than usual in the preview. My guess is they'll try to keep the main story fairly straight-faced but go all out in the party banter etc.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

That's because traditional PC gaming was neutered by "accessible" game design.

What styles of RPG are most popular?
1. Action "RPG" (skyrim, zelda)
2. JRPG (dragon quest, final fantasy)
3. Overhead TB (fire emblem, battle brothers, D:OS, banner saga, etc.)
4. Phase Based (wizardry clones) / RTwP (PoE/PF:KM), I don't know which is less popular

There's a small gap between 2 and 3 and a large gap between 1 and 2 and between 3 and 4.

Popularity is inversely correlated to tactical complexity (assuming similar quality of encounter design, character customization, etc.). Not surprising that Larian went with overhead TB + 3D graphics + rotatable camera + MMO GFX, but it's like saying you're making Wizardry 10 and spitting out a Skyrim clone.

Was gonna comment but then noticed you seriously put fire emblem and DOS in the same category. That's just retarded.

Also JRPG is not a style, it's a point of origin. There's about as much variation among JRPGs as among western RPGs.

 

[Black]

I get triggered every time I hear someone say "tank/dps" in the context of tabletop and normal crpgs.

"Tank" and "damage dealer" are two of the roles that recent editions of D&D are designed around (I can for sure say this for D&D 3.x, 4 and 5).

But it never made sense to me how you can even have a "tank" in a system when your tank can become useless after just one save-or-suck spell.

 

[FranticDistortion]

I get triggered every time I hear someone say "tank/dps" in the context of tabletop and normal crpgs.

"Tank" and "damage dealer" are two of the roles that recent editions of D&D are designed around (I can for sure say this for D&D 3.x, 4 and 5).

But it never made sense to me how you can even have a "tank" in a system when your tank can become useless after just one save-or-suck spell.

Tank, by tanking the suck spell.

 

[rhollis]

I get triggered every time I hear someone say "tank/dps" in the context of tabletop and normal crpgs.

"Tank" and "damage dealer" are two of the roles that recent editions of D&D are designed around (I can for sure say this for D&D 3.x, 4 and 5).

But it never made sense to me how you can even have a "tank" in a system when your tank can become useless after just one save-or-suck spell.

Tank, by tanking the suck spell.

And by adding your charisma bonus to saving throws.

 

[Elex]

I get that from a PnP purity perspective, but I’m more concerned about gameplay here. I’m hoping someone can offer reassurance that we won’t need to pick tank, thief, healer and spellslinger to be effective in combat. For me, a huge part of any good CRPG is experimenting with team composition and cool class combos.

In 5e many class can cover the same role if built properly.

a ranger or a bard can be the typical stealth guy. Even a fighter can (a dex fighter in light armor and finesse/ranged weapons).

Rogue/bard are just the best class for steath/stealing/picklock (they are the specialist class because they have expertise = double proficiency with some skill)

Any class can be the group “face” in particular one of the many cha classes.
Paladin, bard, warlock, sorcerer are prefect for that. A rogue can work too.

Bard is the best as face.


Healing in 5e in mostly out of combat, all class can use hit dice for self heal during a short rest(a pool of 1 hit dice per level). Long rest restore all hit points and half of the hit dice pool.

so what healer do in 5e?? They combat heal.
Combat heal: when someone go to 0 the healer heal some hp so they can keep fighting.

it’s not a mmo, healer don’t have to keep party members full.

Life cleric is the best healer, all clerics generally prepare some healing.

Druid, paladin, bard can also heal.

Sorcerer/warlock can heal with the correct subclass.

fighter have some self-heal. A monk subclass can self heal.

There is no real aggro mechanic in 5e.
some class can do limited stuff for attract attention or punish enemies.
Attack of opportunity exist.
The feat poleweapon master allow to hit who come close to the character.

barbarians have resistance to phisical damage (half damage) so they HP tank: they use reckless attack so they have advantage but also enemy have advantage against barbarian (so enemies tend to focus the easy to hit barbarian)

Moon druids: bear tank

Paladins of course they have auras for superior saving throw, in addition to protection/healing.


Fighters have self heal, reroll saves, and have more feat/stats.

clerics can be good frontline too.

all classes can be good damage dealers.

martial classes are best at single target, paladins and fighters can go nova and massacre a boss.

Casters are great at aoe damage (fireball with 8d6 outperform others damage spell) and control, generally caster are the problem solver.


TL; DR in 5e you can play with a mono class group or mix with no real limit or problem.

4 bards? Can do all
4 paladins? They suck at ranged but no problem.
4 clerics? A-men Easy mode.
4 wizards? If you win initiative there is no hope for the enemy.
4 warlocks? I guess you really like eldritch blast.
Etc

 

[Tacgnol]

I get triggered every time I hear someone say "tank/dps" in the context of tabletop and normal crpgs.

"Tank" and "damage dealer" are two of the roles that recent editions of D&D are designed around (I can for sure say this for D&D 3.x, 4 and 5).

But it never made sense to me how you can even have a "tank" in a system when your tank can become useless after just one save-or-suck spell.

Or why enemies would be so drawn to the big guy anyway, especially when there are much more fragile targets potentially in easy reach. Saying that, a well built barbarian (or fighter) with a big 2h weapon is a threat, so enemies wanting to take that down does make sense.

"Tanking" also does make sense if you can plonk your martial in a physically disruptive area that enemies want to get past.

 

[rhollis]

Bard is the best as face.

Why is bard > other charisma classes?

TL; DR in 5e you can play with a mono class group or mix with no real limit or problem.

4 bards? Can do all
4 paladins? They suck at ranged but no problem.
4 clerics? A-men Easy mode.
4 wizards? If you win initiative there is no hope for the enemy.
4 warlocks? I guess you really like eldritch blast.
Etc

I'm officially on board with 4-man party given 5E class flexibility.

 

[ProphetSword]

For those worried about classes in 5E, the first campaign I ran at the table consisted of a group of guys who decided to play a Cleric, a Sorcerer, a Warlock and a Bard. I thought that certainly this party would get smashed very quickly without a dedicated thief type and without some sort of fighter standing in the front. Couldn't be more wrong. This party wrecked things so hard and so fast, I had to switch gears quickly to challenge them. Traps were no problem. Big monsters were no problem.

Keep that in mind: A party of nothing but spellcasters wrecked things. Try that in AD&D. As much as I love AD&D, a party of nothing but spellcasters would get chewed up in about a minute.

You learn very quickly in 5E that all your expectations go right out the window.

 

[Shadenuat]

fuck this big parties are fun. not only in terms of char building, and dressing up, but their personalities and banter and stuff.

only 4 chars already killing half of my fun.

 

[rhollis]

"Tanking" also does make sense if you can plonk your martial in a physically disruptive area that enemies want to get past.

Yeah this is what I was thinking of when referring to tanking. Not MMO tanking / taunting but engaging at choke points and hitting enemies with disengagement / opportunity attacks.