Squeenix Best Final Fantasy

[Poseidon00]

FF8 has some elements of decline, and yet is a contender for the top ten most systematically-complex RPGs of all time, and is also the most complex Final Fantasy in that regard. The very opposite of streamlining. IF you were to be talking about difficulty, or some unlikable characters, then you may have a point to argue when it comes to decline, but you were talking about content density and RPG systems specifically.

Once again, stupidity maintains its dominance in the public zeitgeist.

What exactly is complex about a game whose whole combat system is spamming basic attacks and limit breaks? Where a silly card minigame can make you completely overpowered at the very beginning?

Triple Triad is a GEM. I will die on this hill.

 

[Ash]

"Complexity is a concept that describes the degree of intricacy or diversity of an object or a system. Complexity can be measured in different ways, such as by the number of properties, the probability of the state, or the difficulty of understanding. Complexity can apply to various domains, such as information processing, physical systems, or human affairs."

The balance is shot, which results in a lot of the systems being redundant, yes. Nonetheless, game is the most complex FF. And in defense of it, breaking it to extremes does require grinding. Grinding cards, grinding draws. Grinding AP. Which applies to most RPGs, it's just in FF8 it's notably easier to do, especially when Triple Triad is so goated, and the RPG systems so cool, it's practically begging you to grind.

Also, reminder that the FF8 Requiem romhack turns it into a hardcore monocled RPG of epic proportions, fixes all the balances issues, as long as you don't mind a little grinding (not excessive - think what FF5 expects of you or maybe slightly more, and less than late game FF10), which apparently everyone does in FF8 anyway - hence all these complaints.

 

[Sergio]

FF8 has some elements of decline, and yet is a contender for the top ten most systematically-complex RPGs of all time, and is also the most complex Final Fantasy in that regard. The very opposite of streamlining. IF you were to be talking about difficulty, or some unlikable characters, then you may have a point to argue when it comes to decline, but you were talking about content density and RPG systems specifically.

Once again, stupidity maintains its dominance in the public zeitgeist.

What exactly is complex about a game whose whole combat system is spamming basic attacks and limit breaks? Where a silly card minigame can make you completely overpowered at the very beginning?

Triple Triad is a GEM. I will die on this hill.

Triple Triad is fucking awesome and the best thing that came out of that game (other than amazing OST). People still play this thing online lol. I only called it a "silly minigame" for the sake of argument.

 

[Ash]

Yup. Best minigame in the entire series.

 

[Sergio]

"Complexity is a concept that describes the degree of intricacy or diversity of an object or a system. Complexity can be measured in different ways, such as by the number of properties, the probability of the state, or the difficulty of understanding. Complexity can apply to various domains, such as information processing, physical systems, or human affairs."

The balance is shot, which results in a lot of the systems being redundant, yes. Nonetheless, game is the most complex FF. And in defense of it, breaking it to extremes does require grinding. Grinding cards, grinding draws. Grinding AP. Which applies to most RPGs, it's just in FF8 it's notably easier to do, especially when Triple Triad is so goated, and the RPG systems so cool, it's practically begging you to grind.

Also, reminder that the FF8 Requeim romhack turns it into a hardcore monocled RPG of epic proportions, fixes all the balances issues, as long as you don't mind a little grinding (not excessive - think what FF5 expects of you, and less than late game FF10), which apparently everyone does in FF8 anyway - hence all these complaints.

I think FF5 job system was more complex. So was FF7 materia system. And FFX grid. And FFXII gambits. These are just random examples and in no way I would consider other FF games "complex" but I still don't think FF8 was anything special in that regard. I mean grinding isn't exactly complex, it's braindead.

I haven't played the romhack so can't comment on that.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

 

[Beastro]

Yup. Best minigame in the entire series.

EXCEPT FOR REGIONAL RULES SPREAD!!!

YOU MAKE A FUN CARD GAME AND THEN THROW THAT SHIT IN AND RUIN IT!!!

 

[Sergio]

Me too, unironically. Brother = Blitzball Messi.

 

[Ash]

"Complexity is a concept that describes the degree of intricacy or diversity of an object or a system. Complexity can be measured in different ways, such as by the number of properties, the probability of the state, or the difficulty of understanding. Complexity can apply to various domains, such as information processing, physical systems, or human affairs."

The balance is shot, which results in a lot of the systems being redundant, yes. Nonetheless, game is the most complex FF. And in defense of it, breaking it to extremes does require grinding. Grinding cards, grinding draws. Grinding AP. Which applies to most RPGs, it's just in FF8 it's notably easier to do, especially when Triple Triad is so goated, and the RPG systems so cool, it's practically begging you to grind.

Also, reminder that the FF8 Requeim romhack turns it into a hardcore monocled RPG of epic proportions, fixes all the balances issues, as long as you don't mind a little grinding (not excessive - think what FF5 expects of you, and less than late game FF10), which apparently everyone does in FF8 anyway - hence all these complaints.

I think FF5 job system was more complex. So was FF7 materia system. And FFX grid. And FFXII gambits. These are just random examples and in no way I would consider other FF games "complex" but I still don't think FF8 was anything special in that regard. I mean grinding isn't exactly complex, it's braindead.

I haven't played the romhack so can't comment on that.

I'm talking about systemic complexity. Systems on top of systems or intertwining. How many variables the player can interact with. The sheer breadth of it, regardless of the depth. FF8 is the most complex. And with the aforementioned Romhack, it has the depth to add justice to the breadth. Just don't play the PC version of the mod because it removes the Card Mod ability until late game (wtf!), taking half the fun out of Triple Triad. Play the original version - hacked PSX FF8. Sure, Card Mod is OP but removing it is not the answer.

Yup. Best minigame in the entire series.

EXCEPT FOR REGIONAL RULES SPREAD!!!

YOU MAKE A FUN CARD GAME AND THEN THROW THAT SHIT IN AND RUIN IT!!!

Regional rules and their spread is great. Firstly, it's to an extent controlled by the player - you're the one that spreads the rules (aside from Queen of Cards in a couple instances, which has further player involvement nuances). Secondly, it forces you to play the mini-game with ever-evolving and more complex rules. Third, it's dynamic. On different playthroughs, you're going to get different rule spread, adding to replayability. Regional rules and their spread is one third of what makes TT great, you just don't like that you got lumped with the evil RANDOM rule (yeah, we all hated that, becayse we couldn't spam our power cards). By the way there is a trick to bypassing random rule and it is the best thing you could possibly do - refine ALL your cards except the powerful ones. It helps defeat pathetic collector dumbass mentality.
There is also a way to wipe rules, but I forget the specifics.

 

[Poseidon00]

"Complexity is a concept that describes the degree of intricacy or diversity of an object or a system. Complexity can be measured in different ways, such as by the number of properties, the probability of the state, or the difficulty of understanding. Complexity can apply to various domains, such as information processing, physical systems, or human affairs."

The balance is shot, which results in a lot of the systems being redundant, yes. Nonetheless, game is the most complex FF. And in defense of it, breaking it to extremes does require grinding. Grinding cards, grinding draws. Grinding AP. Which applies to most RPGs, it's just in FF8 it's notably easier to do, especially when Triple Triad is so goated, and the RPG systems so cool, it's practically begging you to grind.

Also, reminder that the FF8 Requeim romhack turns it into a hardcore monocled RPG of epic proportions, fixes all the balances issues, as long as you don't mind a little grinding (not excessive - think what FF5 expects of you, and less than late game FF10), which apparently everyone does in FF8 anyway - hence all these complaints.

I think FF5 job system was more complex. So was FF7 materia system. And FFX grid. And FFXII gambits. These are just random examples and in no way I would consider other FF games "complex" but I still don't think FF8 was anything special in that regard. I mean grinding isn't exactly complex, it's braindead.

I haven't played the romhack so can't comment on that.

What made FF8's system interesting was that you could customize characters down to the stat growth, resistances, and attack status effects/elemental affinities. You could, in theory, give Irvine max speed and a whole lot of Sleep spells on his attacks and try to stall enemies. In theory, you can do a lot of things, but the game is far too easy for these things to ever matter. I will have to check out the Requiem mod, difficulty is all this game needs.

FFV was more complex because in the sense that you could mix and match abilities. Knight/Blue Mage is always useful. Or Samurai with Cover and just block every incoming blow on your weaker allies.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

tfw no GF...

 

[Ash]

What made FF8's system interesting was that you could customize characters down to the stat growth, resistances, and attack status effects/elemental affinities. You could, in theory, give Irvine max speed and a whole lot of Sleep spells on his attacks and try to stall enemies. In theory, you can do a lot of things, but the game is far too easy for these things to ever matter. I will have to check out the Requiem mod, difficulty is all this game needs.

Yes, all of that, and so much more, such as:

FFV was more complex because in the sense that you could mix and match abilities. Knight/Blue Mage is always useful. Or Samurai with Cover and just block every incoming blow on your weaker allies.

NOPE. You seem to be forgetting FF8 has an ability customize screen, and it is one of many ability screens, which takes it much greater heights of complexity than FF5.

Look, you can swap out three of your four main commands for numerous others (what those others will be will depend on what GFs are equipped and what those GFs have learned. Also, you can manually teach GFs extra abilities to assign they wouldn't otherwise have naturally), in addition to up to four passive abilities. Not including things going on in other ability and customize screens. This is far more complex than FF5's one ability slot mix-matched with a class + equipment. Of course, it's more meaningful in FF5 because the game is challenging and better balanced, so that is where the Requiem comes in. And yes, you really do need requiem. Everyone should be playing Requiem. It's RPG, strategy and Final Fantasy heaven, and saves this flawed gem.

 

[mediocrepoet]

FF8 has some elements of decline, and yet is a contender for the top ten most systematically-complex RPGs of all time, and is also the most complex Final Fantasy in that regard. The very opposite of streamlining. IF you were to be talking about difficulty, or some unlikable characters, then you may have a point to argue when it comes to decline, but you were talking about content density and RPG systems specifically.

Once again, stupidity maintains its dominance in the public zeitgeist.

What exactly is complex about a game whose whole combat system is spamming basic attacks and limit breaks? Where a silly card minigame can make you completely overpowered at the very beginning?

Well you see, after you draw 100 you link it to a stat.

 

[mediocrepoet]

What made FF8's system interesting was that you could customize characters down to the stat growth, resistances, and attack status effects/elemental affinities. You could, in theory, give Irvine max speed and a whole lot of Sleep spells on his attacks and try to stall enemies. In theory, you can do a lot of things, but the game is far too easy for these things to ever matter. I will have to check out the Requiem mod, difficulty is all this game needs.

Yes, all of that, and so much more, such as:

FFV was more complex because in the sense that you could mix and match abilities. Knight/Blue Mage is always useful. Or Samurai with Cover and just block every incoming blow on your weaker allies.

NOPE. You seem to be forgetting FF8 has an ability customize screen, and it is one of many ability screens, which takes it much greater heights of complexity than FF5.

Look, you can swap out three of your four main commands for numerous others (what those others will be will depend on what GFs are equipped and what those GFs have learned), in addition to up to four passive abilities. Not including things going on in other ability and customize screens. This is far more complex than FF5's one ability slot. Of course, it's more meaningful in FF5 because the game is challenging and better balanced, so that is where the Requiem comes in. And yes, you really do need requiem. Everyone should be playing Requiem. It's RPG and Final Fantasy heaven, and saves this flawed gem.

So FF8 isn't really complex, some mod makes it so. Ok.

 

[Ash]

Really struggling with the definition of complexity aren't you, despite being served it on a platter. The mod doesn't add any complexity, it just makes things challenging and balanced, which ties it all together adding meaning and depth like in FF5. Suddenly, all these systems come into relevance making it go from the most complex, to now also in all likelihood the deepest FF. Come back when you've ground out some level ups and try again.

 

[Poseidon00]

Really struggling with the definition of complexity aren't you, despite being served it on a platter. The mod doesn't add any complexity, it just makes things challenging and balanced, which ties it all together adding meaning and depth like in FF5. Suddently, all these systems come into relevance making it go from the most complex, to now also in all likelihood the deepest FF. Come back when you've ground out some level ups and try again.

Looking forward to seeing how the fight with the T-Rex in the training center goes

 

[Ash]

Really struggling with the definition of complexity aren't you, despite being served it on a platter. The mod doesn't add any complexity, it just makes things challenging and balanced, which ties it all together adding meaning and depth like in FF5. Suddently, all these systems come into relevance making it go from the most complex, to now also in all likelihood the deepest FF. Come back when you've ground out some level ups and try again.

Looking forward to seeing how the fight with the T-Rex in the training center goes

Undefeatable until you can exploit its weaknesses or have accrued enough total power. Vanilla this was the case until a couple hours in, in Requiem it's a few hours more. Avoiding the T-Rex (alert ability, run away and hope you don't get eaten, camp save point in the training center etc) in the early game is a must.

 

[Thac0]

When I was younger I thought it was FFIV. Now I think it is FFIX.

I turned from a hipster liking simple and nice things, to a hipster liking simple and nice things.

 

[Poseidon00]

FF IV is the only one in the 1-10 lineup that i've never touched. I don't know why. It was good enough to get a sequel, anyway.

Golbez is such a great character in Dissidia though. Both in gameplay and in his characterization.

 

[mediocrepoet]

FF IV is the only one in the 1-10 lineup that i've never touched. I don't know why. It was good enough to get a sequel, anyway.

Golbez is such a great character in Dissidia though. Both in gameplay and in his characterization.

I like IV except the encounter rate at the very end which is straight cancer. You should give it a spin if you generally enjoyed the earlier games.

 

[Ash]

It's just your perception.

Indeed. The guy must have a perception stat in the negative - there is almost zero evidence or indication as to the game being unfinished. FF7 maintains an absurdly high quality from start to finish, builds upon concepts of the prior games successfully (or in cases it strays, it does its own thing instead), gets progressively more complex as the hours go by as with every good FF, has almost zero bugs (by industry standards), performance issues or anything of the kind, and is a whopping 40-100 hours long, in which the quality never falters (except minigames).

The best I've got is numerous of the mini-games are underdeveloped...but no shit, when there's tons of them and it includes gameplay from a wide variety of major video game genres, built into an already massive game. Or the English translation has some typos in it which is as understandable as it gets (game was already finished....in Japanese. Now there is a release date to meet and the Gaijin are less important).

I would suspect it's a case of Midgar Syndrome - can't accept that it is valid for there is a whole world out there beyond the cyberpunk city that is instead actual fantasy, as if one were to play FF6 and expect the entire thing to be steampunk instead of mystical caves, phantom forests, alternate esper dimensions etc.

 

[Thac0]

FF IV is the only one in the 1-10 lineup that i've never touched. I don't know why. It was good enough to get a sequel, anyw

ay.

Golbez is such a great character in Dissidia though. Both in gameplay and in his characterization.

I like IV except the encounter rate at the very end which is straight cancer. You should give it a spin if you generally enjoyed the earlier games.

Hey, at least it is not as bullshit as the final dungeon in FFIII tho.
But yeah, by the end of it I just wanted to be done with it, as mind blowing as it was to have the final dungeon on the moon, the entirety of the place had too many random encounters, and too many of them had total party wipe capacities.

I rushed through the *massive* final dungeon then, the throw ability on the thief is completely broken, so I just threw all of the high end weapons made obsolete by the late game best in slot weapons at the enemies to get by quicker.
Made the final boss pretty fun, since he is pretty tough and I did not have many fuma shuriken and swords left to cheese him.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

FF8 has some elements of decline, and yet is a contender for the top ten most systematically-complex RPGs of all time, and is also the most complex Final Fantasy in that regard. The very opposite of streamlining. IF you were to be talking about difficulty, or some unlikable characters, then you may have a point to argue when it comes to decline, but you were talking about content density and RPG systems specifically.

Once again, stupidity maintains its dominance in the public zeitgeist.

What exactly is complex about a game whose whole combat system is spamming basic attacks and limit breaks? Where a silly card minigame can make you completely overpowered at the very beginning?

Games do not need to be complex. What JRPGs recgonized right from the get go is that this an AUDIO-VISUAL medium, and that gameplay is not actually the most important part. The aesthetics, music, and presentation are of the utmost priority, and is what JRPGs chose to focus on when they spun off from Wizardry to make Dragon Quest and then Final Fantasy, with FF7 maturing the genre into what it is today. WRPGs in contrast were slow on the uptake and their neglect of their aesthetics and presentation (often looking ugly and feeling quite clunky) held the genre back from going mainstream. Kids on the playground looked forward to the next FF game coming out, not the next Ultima. It was not until Skyrim that WRPGs began following suit. Skyrim has a shallow battle system and mediocre writing, but is carried by its aesthetics and music and presentation, immersing yourself into this pretty, cold fantasy viking land.

 

[Ash]

Absolutely disgusting. Please never develop a game.

 

[Odoryuk]

Are you motherfuckers now arguing that Final Fantasy is not complex enough for you and thus it's bad what the fuck

Next time you'll post that Ben 10 doesn't have the emotional depth of Woman in the Dunes or something