Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Squeenix Best Final Fantasy

Which Final Fantasy is the best?


  • Total voters
    225

Sergio

Novice
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2025
Messages
90
FF8 has some elements of decline, and yet is a contender for the top ten most systematically-complex RPGs of all time, and is also the most complex Final Fantasy in that regard. The very opposite of streamlining. IF you were to be talking about difficulty, or some unlikable characters, then you may have a point to argue when it comes to decline, but you were talking about content density and RPG systems specifically.

Once again, stupidity maintains its dominance in the public zeitgeist.
What exactly is complex about a game whose whole combat system is spamming basic attacks and limit breaks? Where a silly card minigame can make you completely overpowered at the very beginning?

Games do not need to be complex. What JRPGs recgonized right from the get go is that this an AUDIO-VISUAL medium, and that gameplay is not actually the most important part. The aesthetics, music, and presentation are of the utmost priority, and is what JRPGs chose to focus on when they spun off from Wizardry to make Dragon Quest and then Final Fantasy, with FF7 maturing the genre into what it is today. WRPGs in contrast were slow on the uptake and their neglect of their aesthetics and presentation (often looking ugly and feeling quite clunky) held the genre back from going mainstream. Kids on the playground looked forward to the next FF game coming out, not the next Ultima. It was not until Skyrim that WRPGs began following suit. Skyrim has a shallow battle system and mediocre writing, but is carried by its aesthetics and music and presentation, immersing yourself into this pretty, cold fantasy viking land.
There are many JRPGs with great writing, there are also many with fantastic combat. Just because modern gamers tend to ignore quality and focus on presentation, putting shit like Rebarf on the pedestal, doesn't mean it was always like this.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
16,097
Eh, I wouldn't say there are MANY with fantastic combat, relatively speaking. There are a ton with fantastic combat systems that never get utilized properly due to lack of difficulty. Especially once save points right before the boss became the norm, most jrpgs were utterly trivialized by just casting the biggest spell you had every turn in every fight, with no reason to do anything else or even pay much attention to equipment.
 

Sergio

Novice
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2025
Messages
90
Eh, I wouldn't say there are MANY with fantastic combat, relatively speaking. There are a ton with fantastic combat systems that never get utilized properly due to lack of difficulty. Especially once save points right before the boss became the norm, most jrpgs were utterly trivialized by just casting the biggest spell you had every turn in every fight, with no reason to do anything else or even pay much attention to equipment.
I highly recommend you try SaGa Scarlet Grace or SaGa Frontier 2, might change your perspective quite a bit.
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,911
Location
Water Play Catarinense
ZtiVrQN.jpeg
I hate that shit. FFX intro makes you think Blitzball is a fast game, until you finally get to play it and it's so slow it makes the loading times into the battle scenes in FFIX looks like Sonic.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,163
Blitzball is cool. Criticisms of difficulty are sadly valid though. But hey, it's kind of a nice break from the torture of lightning dodging 100 strikes or beating a stupid chocobo race with precisely 0.1 seconds to spare. What in the actual fuck was that. Still, I prefer sadistic game design over modern braindead, so I cant bitch too hard.
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,911
Location
Water Play Catarinense

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
Patron
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
14,567
Location
Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
full on sports RPG
There are some JRPG on that (a whole JRPG series and a Captain Tsubasa game that has card game elements, for example).
Anything released over here? PM me if you don't want to post it here, I'd be curious to look into them.
I know that some Inazuma Eleven games were released outside Japan. And some Captain Tsubasa games that are JRPG have been translated by fans.
If anyone else is curious, both franchises are on Steam, one upcoming and the other with a released title.

EDIT: Actually, the Captain Tsubasa one has the ultimate edition on for 75% off expiring in 41 hours at the time of this edit.
EDIT 2: And all versions are more like 80-90% off on Fanatical, if you're so inclined.
 

Scourge

Barely Literate
Joined
Jan 17, 2025
Messages
4
12 obviously came out of the gate in the golden age of video games and solidified it's place in people's hearts.
Stayed true with formula and people still go bat shit insane for the bunny girls.
 

Sergio

Novice
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2025
Messages
90
full on sports RPG
There are some JRPG on that (a whole JRPG series and a Captain Tsubasa game that has card game elements, for example).
Anything released over here? PM me if you don't want to post it here, I'd be curious to look into them.
Check out Captain Tsubasa: Rise of New Champions. Also Inazuma Eleven: Victory Road comes out this year. More games are available in english (especially inazumas), but they're mostly quite old, so it's emulation time unless you own a DS.
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,354
Speaking of sports RPGs, there was this weird extreme frisbee game for the Xbox, where you could win by either playing the game normally or by knocking all the opponents out by combat. I recall there being a team of demons that did almost nothing but attack you. You could totally turn this concept into an RPG with some minor tweaking.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
10,036
Location
where east is west
FF IV is the only one in the 1-10 lineup that i've never touched. I don't know why. It was good enough to get a sequel, anyway.

Golbez is such a great character in Dissidia though. Both in gameplay and in his characterization.
I like IV except the encounter rate at the very end which is straight cancer. You should give it a spin if you generally enjoyed the earlier games.
It's too late for him.

You can only really enjoy the simple story as a kid.

What you say is like recommending playing with GI Joe action figures to a 30 year old. That ship has sailed.
 

Just Locus

Educated
Joined
Mar 11, 2022
Messages
647
Location
Termina
Never played FF before, I got the Pixel Remaster and am hopefully going to go through all the games. Been enjoying FF1. I like the old charm and details it has, like the fountain in Cornelia telling you that you're dirty, or each character having a different sprite when close to death.

pPr6mFb.png
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
Patron
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
14,567
Location
Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Never played FF before, I got the Pixel Remaster and am hopefully going to go through all the games. Been enjoying FF1. I like the old charm and details it has, like the fountain in Cornelia telling you that you're dirty, or each character having a different sprite when close to death.

pPr6mFb.png
They're easier, but otherwise basically similar. Best you can do without emulation/original hardware now I think.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
12,106
Location
Flowery Land
A lot of FF1's difficulty is wrapped in just how much basic stuff was broken in the sense it didn't work and middle fingers to the player that were removed in future non-port re-releases.
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,354
I like the way Final Fantasy Origins on PS1 looked compared to these pixel remasters, but that just might be because it's what i'm familiar with. I did like FF3's remaster though. The DS version is just too different to be considered the same game.
 

Just Locus

Educated
Joined
Mar 11, 2022
Messages
647
Location
Termina
I beat the Piscodemons at Level 10 by just stocking up on HP potions and using Fira and Heal. They were really tough though.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
16,097
A lot of FF1's difficulty is wrapped in just how much basic stuff was broken in the sense it didn't work and middle fingers to the player that were removed in future non-port re-releases.
Some of it is pretty funny. The spellcasting stat doesn't even do anything. Not 'Oh we made a typo so it doesn't work' just straight up there's no code attached to it except how it increases each level. They never coded it to do anything at all.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
754
From the discussions I've read on the topic of the Intelligence "bug" from FF1 ROMhackers/dataminers, the prevailing theory is that Intelligence was most likely supposed to affect hit chance on attack spells. For damaging spells that always hit, this means a chance to deal full damage (where a "miss" results in half damage). Of course, it is true that no such thing was actually implemented (unlike more explicable oversights like the FF6 Evasion bug where the pointer address for MBlock was used in physical damage hit chance calculations instead), so this is just speculation based on the other game mechanics.

Anyway, some of these old threads on the topic are interesting reading material, a nice intersecting study of assembly code and 1980's RPG design philosophy:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/522595-final-fantasy/33693741?page=32

Alex_Jackson said:
In the context of "restoring the game to what the designers actually wanted", I really don't think having Intelligence affect the base damage range of spells (much less the healing range of CURE spells) is a good idea. The only justification for the idea is that it's what the GBA version does, but the GBA version is a radical "reimagining" which changes the game's mechanics in all kinds of fundamental ways, even changes the conceptual roles of some character classes altogether (e.g. making the Thief/Ninja a "lots of weak hits" guy as opposed to the "fewer but stronger hits" Fighter/Knight), and all the while deliberately reproduces at least one of the original game's most balance-altering bugs (namely, the critical hit bug)

Having Intelligence directly affect spell damage just doesn't gel with the way FF1 treats stats, which is that each stat is used in one and only one formula. Strength affects Damage with weapons, but it doesn't affect Hit % or Black Belt Damage (which is a different formula from weapon Damage). Dexterity affects Evade %, but it doesn't affect attack order or Hit %. Vitality affects HP, but not defence (Absorb), magic resistance or status recovery. Luck affects running away, but not critical hits or Evade %. The only exception is that surprise is affected by the lead character's Luck and Dexterity, but that's also exceptional because it's the only formula in the game that uses two stats. If you consider the sum Dexterity+Luck to be a sort of sixth stat, then surprise obeys the same rule as everything else (yeah, yeah, special pleading...)

Anyway, based on this observed rule, we can conclude that Intelligence should affect either the magic "Hit %" formula or the damage of damage spells, not both. And to me the former makes a lot more sense, if for no other reason than because in FF1 magic accuracy "needs" a boost a lot more than magic damage does. In the original game without any bug fixes, damage spells continue to be somewhat useful throughout the game, but status and instant-death spells start to seriously suck around when you get the airship, if not sooner.

Also, for what it's worth, none of the earlier CRPGs which this game may have drawn inspiration from had spell damage increase in proportion to the caster's stats. In Wizardry and all its imitators (including Dragon Quest) each damage spell inflicted a fixed range of damage, and each healing spell healed a fixed range of HP. And no version of D&D, ever, had the damage of spells like Magic Missile and Fireball be affected by the caster's stats (level, yes; stats, no)

Oh, and on the subject of D&D, a lot of the comments I read in this thread are way off base. The commenters here don't seem to realize that the D&D that anyone younger than their mid-20s is familiar with (D&D 3rd Edition) is, in terms of mechanics, a completely different game than the D&D of the 1980s which this game and all the classic CRPGs were based on. And one of the biggest differences between new-D&D and old-D&D is that new-D&D places a lot more emphasis on ability scores than old-D&D did. The suggestions in this thread to have practically every magic-related calculation in the game (damage amount, healing amount, spellpoints gained per level, even the chance of an enemy waking up after SLEP) somehow relate to the caster's Intelligence in order to be "more like D&D" are certainly coming from people who only know 3e, which is not the D&D that Akitoshi Kawazu knew and played at all.
 

Jinn

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,565
Pixel Remasters are shit. Just emulate.

Not only do they alter the gameplay for the worse, they look absolutely horrendous, even when compared to the original NES/Famicom trilogy. But whatever. People are going to keep buying them for whatever reason. I get sick of cautioning people against it - especially here of all places - when the most cursory research and a tiny amount of aesthetic integrity should be enough to keep you from wasting money and time on inferior versions of the games.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
1,328
Pixel Remasters are shit. Just emulate.

Not only do they alter the gameplay for the worse, they look absolutely horrendous, even when compared to the original NES/Famicom trilogy. But whatever. People are going to keep buying them for whatever reason. I get sick of cautioning people against it - especially here of all places - when the most cursory research and a tiny amount of aesthetic integrity should be enough to keep you from wasting money and time on inferior versions of the games.

Yup. Play the games the way the artists intended. Only caveat is that FF9's PC port has the Moguri mod which provides 1. true turn based combat if you want a more leisurely experience, and 2. widescreen backgrounds if that interests you. FF13 looks better when using the Steam graphics modding guide. Otherwise, play emulate everything else. The so-called remasters almost always botch the aesthetics.

 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom