Editorial Bethesda developer explains why TB is obsolete

[Shagnak]

In general, I don't defer to the hive and never have, yet I was never given a dumbfuck label. What am I doing wrong?

You haven't threatened the hive mind's security in any real way.

Reallly? Damn, how disappointing.
I was hoping my reprieve was more to do with people appreciating my sexy bestial looks and/or highly developed jedi mind powahz.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Almost all of my posts except for the first one is a response to somebody else who was probably responding to an earlier post of mine.

Alright. Lets check what you responded to:

Your first post:

I love turn-based for the amount of micro-managed strategy it allows. I also hate the amount of time it takes to micro-manage said strategy. Turn based is great for "thinking man's" games, games that require the player to agonize over every possible action and consequence in order to proceed successfully to victory over one's adversary.

I don't think RPGs have to fit this model. I don't think fallout has to fit this model. Given the nature of the setting, the frequency of conflict expected, and the time all that would absorb, I'd prefer that it wasn't turnbased.

You're not stating TB as obsolete. As a matter of fact: you don't say anything about TB being obsolete or not.

Then The Prick writes:

Fucking savages. When I want real time combat, I go play Far Cry. When I want to play an RPG that makes me use my intelligence (what all RPG's should be about), I want FULLY turn-based combat. Daggerfall's combat sucks balls, but the world is huge enough and the quests are plenty enough to get enjoyment out of the game.

Fallout 3: Halo Wars Theft Auto by the "geniuses' behind Oblivion is GOING to suck. I hate being reminded of it everyday; being reminded that Bethesda sucks goat balls and they don't know how to make games but are masters of hype and all that bullshit, and I especially hate the fact the millions of people by the hype.

Sadistic fucks.
Move on to the next depressing topic...

You answer:

If RPGs were truely about using intellect then they'd resemble the ASVAB more than a game.

I don't think my willingness to experience a role and the dramatic consequences of that role in real time renders me a savage.

I think it just means that I'm not affraid of doing away with a combat system invented before automated computing made "turns" more or less obselete.

I think people are also misunderstanding my stance though. I'm not pro anything. I just don't mind that Fallout may or may not be turnbased.

Little of my pure enjoyment of fallout was because it was turnbased.

I've bolded and underlined the interesting part. And guess what? TB being obsolete isn't presented as an opinion, it's presented as a fact. The opinion presented - in this post, of course; it seems to change from post to post - is that TB or RT doesn't matter.

Then you and Twinfalls get into an argument and you write:

Sure bethesda is going to fuck up Fallout, I just don't think real time is the linch pin.

Twinfalls answers:

Please don't back away from your previous assertions that TB is obsolete and that RT is a progression 'beyond' TB, unless you have accepted that you are wrong.

And you answer:

I'm not backing away from that, my response was fair.

I'm not saying TB must be done away with, and I think people get that, I'm just saying that progressive developement has presented developers with options beyond turnbased.

Here you don't use the word obsolete. Good boy. Instead you state that RT is beyond TB. Again, you're not presenting it as an opinion but as a fact. Naughty boy.

Then VD quotes you as a reason for your illiterate-tag:

You are. However, that's not why I picked this quote. Here is why: "... doing away with a combat system invented before automated computing made "turns" more or less obselete. "

Your answer?

I've never backed off from this position. TB in many ways has been rendered obsolete by automation. It's not nessessary to take turns to resolve combat in an RPG setting any longer.

It's been many people's opinions that this is wrong. But it hasn't been proven wrong. They really just cried a lot and complained how real RPGs have to be TB or they're just not really RPGs.

What-the-fuck-ever

For the third time not presented as an opinion but as a fact.

And blah blah blah, opinions left, opinions right, I didn't say that, I'm just misunderstood, and more blah blah blah.

Anyway, enjoy your tag. I thought it was a bit harsh at first, but I guess you've earned it.

Oh fuck off already, man. The fact that you're the only one that wants to argue this should tell you something.

I have my choice of being tossed in the fire for making it clear that my position is only opinion too often, and then I get thrown in for not doing it often enough.

Fine, you got me man. I failed to flower that statement, though I thought it was a given by that point, sufficiently.

Even if I did say it as a matter of fact there, I obviously failed to prove it. So it's still just opinion, right?

VD on the other hand presented his opinion as fact, and when asked to offer proof said he didn't have to present any. That his opinion was fact, just becuase.

You honestly believe that I (or someone else) have to? How embarrassing for you.

A trend he tried to continue when he wanted me to disprove his later assertions or just take them as fact.

I'm not going to take the time to dig up that one unless i have to.

If you want to call me a hypocrit, fine. Go ahead, just don't waste any more of my time on this, please.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

In general, I don't defer to the hive and never have, yet I was never given a dumbfuck label. What am I doing wrong?

You haven't threatened the hive mind's security in any real way.

Reallly? Damn, how disappointing.
I was hoping my reprieve was more to do with people appreciating my sexy bestial looks and/or highly developed jedi mind powahz.

That too.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You tried your best to piss people off since your first day. Do you have a tag? No. I once had an epic battle with Role-Player who dared to insult what I hold as the most Holy - a diplomatic path in RPGs. It was a very heated discussion, yet RP can argue, present and defend his points skillfully. I didn't give him any tags. Instead I invited him to join the staff, and was very glad when he agreed.

Woooo where was that? Could you point it out, or at least give me some nice keyword to search for?

Keywords? Sure:

Role-Player: So, can i expect in the future the same level of stupidity regarding what i say, or are you quite trough with it? Its getting tiresome having to reprint my points every few posts because of your insistence in being an ass.
...

Good times, good times.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

 

[Jinxed]

Reminds me of my argument with saint about some ToEE patch.

 

[Fez]

I think everyone has argued with everyone at some point, despite the claim of a hivemind.

 

[elander_]

TB is the evolution of RT for role playing. Now they want to pretend that going backwards is evolution. Yup sometimes evolution goes backwards.

RPG, not just roleplaying in general. There has to be a gaming element. LARPers and society queens playing at dinner theater are not examples of role playing games.

Battle reenacters are roleplaying, but they aren't gaming.

That's what we are talking about here: roleplaying in the context of a roleplaying game. I didn't realized we were talking about something else. As for the gaming element use your brains.

 

[merry andrew]

In my opinion? TB combat resolution is obsolete in reguards to efficient combat resolution according to time spent. Computer automation and sophistication has seemingly presented a new option.

Did you ever play Jagged Alliance 2? It has turn-based combat. For the battles between your militia and invaders, you could do something of an 'auto resolve', which all but totally eliminated 'time spent'. I'm sure other games have done this, I just haven't played them or don't remember.

I'd rather spend more time with engaging combat than less time with uninteresting combat.

 

[MountainWest]

Oh fuck off already, man. The fact that you're the only one that wants to argue this should tell you something.

That's funny: it seems to me the people I quoted wanted to argue it as well.

I have my choice of being tossed in the fire for making it clear that my position is only opinion too often, and then I get thrown in for not doing it often enough.

I still don't give a fuck about your opinions. You stated TB obsolete - that's what I cared about.

Fine, you got me man.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think everyone has argued with everyone at some point, despite the claim of a hivemind.

The Codex is like the ultimate debate Fight Club. You go there to kick some ass and get what's left of your own ass handed back to you in a plastic bag.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Oh fuck off already, man. The fact that you're the only one that wants to argue this should tell you something.

That's funny: it seems to me the people I quoted wanted to argue it as well.

I have my choice of being tossed in the fire for making it clear that my position is only opinion too often, and then I get thrown in for not doing it often enough.

I still don't give a fuck about your opinions. You stated TB obsolete - that's what I cared about.

Fine, you got me man.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear.

In my opinion it is, for reasons I've illustrated at length. If you disagree all you have to do is say so, you don't have to go on a crusade.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

In my opinion? TB combat resolution is obsolete in reguards to efficient combat resolution according to time spent. Computer automation and sophistication has seemingly presented a new option.

Did you ever play Jagged Alliance 2? It has turn-based combat. For the battles between your militia and invaders, you could do something of an 'auto resolve', which all but totally eliminated 'time spent'. I'm sure other games have done this, I just haven't played them or don't remember.

I'd rather spend more time with engaging combat than less time with uninteresting combat.

I don't want to eliminate player conducted combat in an RPG, though. I'm just in favor of, after over 20 years of playing TB RPGs in all shapes and sizes and formats, going with RT for reasons I've stated at length.

 

[merry andrew]

I'm just in favor of, after over 20 years of playing TB RPGs in all shapes and sizes and formats, going with RT for reasons I've stated at length.

I don't mean this is a biting way, but because I'm lazy: are you basically tired of having to think too much so you prefer that combat be dumbed down?

 

[Top Hat]

I don't want to eliminate player conducted combat in an RPG, though. I'm just in favor of, after over 20 years of playing TB RPGs in all shapes and sizes and formats, going with RT for reasons I've stated at length.

Then why not play any one of the many real-time role-playing games that have been released in the last five or six years?

 

[Jinxed]

Then why not play any one of the many real-time role-playing games that have been released in the last five or six years?

He wants it post apoc themed... And there aren't any... Wait a minute, someone send him a copy of The Fall. Oh no, that was a steaming pile of crap. Wonder why?

 

[merry andrew]

Restricted Area

 

[JoKa]

wait....that's even worse than The Fall...

 

[mister lamat]

I don't mean this is a biting way, but because I'm lazy: are you basically tired of having to think too much so you prefer that combat be dumbed down?

if you've been working the system long enough, tb combat is an 'i win' button. you cease thinking tactically and play a purely mathmatical game. it's boring as shit.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Um, I did respond to his page 4 post, I even presented it in RPG-o-Vision.

Should we just let the rest of the rant slide now?

Seems I missed it amongst all the one-liners and rest of the nonsense. Oh well, given the 6 more pages we've had I still think you deserve it, so the tag can stay. You'll just have to learn to live with my opinion, and that's a fact.

Btw, who I respond to and when is up to me.

Yes and no. If you'd only posted once or twice I could understand that. The problem is, you've responded to every single other person who's posted. The one or two people that posted more in-depth responses that really challenged or questioned your position, you ignored before eventually answering only out of protest. Even then, you continue to selectively ignore points and respond with the "don't care" and "my opinion" lines. But what happens when MountainWest raises some good points? You fold. But only after telling us how much you don't care about your opinion.

And as I said, of your now 115 posts, most of them have been in this thread. For someone who doesn't have the time to answer the tough questions, you sure do spend a lot of time responding. If you really wanted to debate the points you're making (which is the only reason you'd keep posting all the crap you are, unless you're a troll) you would've leapt at the chance to answer them instead of dismissing them as "too hard". All it proves is you're not really here for the discussion, you're just here to stir the pot. And that deserves a dumbfuck tag.

I don't owe anybody here anything, other than the chance to express their opinions and views. I, however, don't owe everybody here a response to thier opinions and views.

Again, this attitude comes out that "it's only my opinion" and "I don't care". Everyone knows it's your opinion. Of course it's your opinion. You don't need to keep re-iterating that fact again and again whenever someone questions you about something. The problem is you then continue to rant on and on about your right to express an opinion and do what you want while then saying that you don't care and at the same time, trying to defend your opinion. That's hypocrisy.

If you have an opinion, make it and stick to it. And if someone asks you why you have that opinion or asks you to justify that opinion, don't keep FLIP-FLOPPING about it and saying "lulz I haev rights to opinyuns!" or "I not need to answar u!". Just answer the fucking question in an intelligent manner. If you'd spent even half the effort you have actually talking about why you have that opinion, we might've gotten an intelligent conversation and you might've avoided the tags.

It's not like we're discussing whether or not making fallout RT or TB is the best way to deflect an asteroid on a collision course with earth here.

Given the stakes, I don't feel an overwhelming need to respond to every contrary post to my opinion when what I would say I've already said in response to something else.

For a man who doesn't care, you sure seem to be spending an awful lot of time camping this thread for responses and then replying as soon as you can.

... but only to the easy stuff.

Thing is, this is an RPG forum. Of course we come here for RPG discussion about game mechanics. It's what we like to spend our time doing because let's face it, there are other more qualified people out there who can deal with the asteroid. Let them deal with that.

Once again though, you're stating the bleeding obvious as some sort of attempt to dismiss any critiscism. "It's my opinion", "It doesn't matter", "I don't care". Good for you. If any of those were even moderately true however, you would've stopped posting on page 3. And yet you're still here.

Now can you actually stop that crap and address the actual points here?

To summarise:

• You say you don't care, yet you keep posting and responding to most people.
  
• You say you don't have the time to address the "hard" stuff yet continue to post replies to everyone else.
  
• When you eventually do reply to the hard stuff under pressure, you do so while stating your right to ignore whomever you want. This is in direct contrast to your original statement that you'd "get to the hard stuff later". IE: You FLIP-FLOP.
  
• You continually express "your opinion" in the most "this is a fact" way possible.
  
• When asked to justify your opinion, you ignore the question and state your right to hold an opinion (a right which no-one here has ever called into question).
  
• You eventually re-state your original opinion as fact in another response, and the cycle repeats.
  
• When called on it, you say "You got me" as if this were some kind of fun game. It's true that, in essence, this is a game but if you're not interested in addressing the points, you get tagged. Just think of that as being part of the game.

In short, you've done nothing to disprove you're a troll. I'm even willing to bet your response to this (if you ever get around to it), is going to include lots of "I don't care", "It's my opinion" followed up with a final "You got me" before you then repeat your opinion, presented in the most "this is a fact" way possible. The fact that that process has already repeated itself at least twice in this thread is of itself, worthy of a dumbfuck tag.

i guess as long as you steer clear of what vd considers a 'true roleplaying experience'(tm) since he's been given his thimbleful of power, you're fine.

sad day when the mods here are on par with those at the bethesda forums.

Bullshit. You tried your best to piss people off since your first day. Do you have a tag?

*cough* There are some of us who think mister lamat should've gotten a tag a long time ago, given all he does is throw one liners in from the peanut gallery as if he's somehow made some miraculous point. Like MVB, he doesn't ever get into the real meat of the matter or address any of the points. He simply continually states the same one line over and over again ("u disagree wiht teh COdex hievmind lols!") and never justifies it.

This is the Codex. If you're here, it's because you want to have a decent debate about RPG related issues. If all you can manage is one liners without ever addressing the points raised, expect to get tagged sooner or later. More to the point, if you keep FLIP-FLOPPING, you'll be called on it and tagged so that we know to ignore you in future discussions.

Also...

PAGE NINETEEN MOTHERFUCKERS!

 

[mister lamat]

douchepuddle.

one helluva lengthy justification for such a petty act.

 

[Jinxed]

I can bet ya that anyone who has followed this debate carefully would agree with the tags, so why the need to explain things to people who don't care about it enough to see exactly why he got it? This thread is becoming something like a wheel within a wheel.

 

[Human Shield]

I really don't like this relativism bullshit, it is the same type of people that think you can do anything with any RPG ruleset. They disregard the importance of system and design and just rely on "artistic expression" assuming that if an artist tries hard enough they can somehow overcome human nature. That real-time can do everything TB can, they don't say how but just have to believe it in their hearts.

We really can't argue design with people that don't believe design is important or is all synonymous since it is all 'artist expression'. I guess they just don't believe it effects gameplay despite a pretty clear history. People here would like Fallout 3 to be TB because such a design is part of a gameplay style that they liked from Fallout 1; they want gameplay to be true to the series. We don't talk about TB because of nostalgia but because we feel that TB matches RPG design, that is what you would have to debate not this obsolete insanity which is saying that a gameplay style is obsolete.

And don't forget to read this:

A Guide to Gracefully Losing an Internet Argument

 

[Vault Dweller]

3. Tell everyone you are arguing with how little you care about the argument.

This is especially effective as a one-two punch with posting a lot of words. You have proved you are passionate, but men aren't just passionate. They also are stoic, and when there is danger they narrow their eyes and smoke cigarettes. The problem with this aspect of manliness is that narrowing your eyes and smoking cigarettes is very difficult to portray over the internet, although there are probably some emoticons that can help out.

The best alternative then is to follow up your essay on Dragonball Z playing cards with a coda in which you explain that you did not care about all those words you just posted.
Examples:

Bad: I am literally crying right now. There are tears all over my keyboard because I am crying all over it. My keyboard is going to break because I can't stop weeping all over myself and it.

Good: Haha ok, I didn't know you'd react so strongly. It's just the internet. Who cares? I don't. Do you care? You probably do. You're a woman, I am a man. I don't care about things.

 

[merry andrew]

This is the first time I've seen the full process of someone being illiterated/dumbfucked. I appreciate what the staff does here.