Editorial Bethesda developer explains why TB is obsolete

[One Wolf]

Doesn't TB account for many of the problems I listed? I know this has been covered, I'm just not clear on how RT can overcome the inherent hurdle of poor user aim, even if character stats/skills should allow a hit in a given circumstance.

Target locks, maybe?

On a sidenote, I happen to have good hand to eye coordination. It's part of the reason why I prefer a turnbased combat system since FPS games are often robbed of their challenge by virtue of my mouse skills. Five years of Counter-Strike league play tend to make FPSs comedic.

 

[mister lamat]

the only person i've ever intentionally tried to piss off is rosh... which i succeeded at spectacularly. the whole 'hi, i'm rosh i kill people' is fucking lore around here

everything else is reciprocal.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

What is this bullshit about RT being the evolved version of TB? It's like trying to argue that Christians are evolved Buddhists. It's funny how no one is saying that TB is an evolved version of RT... probably because the ones arguing for TB actually understand the nature of RT.

Actually christians are "evolved" jews.

 

[MountainWest]

EDIT: double post

 

[MountainWest]

*sighs* yet you leave out all the times I've said that it's my opinion and that other people are welcome to their opinions.

*sighs*

You answered this statement:

You are. However, that's not why I picked this quote. Here is why: "... doing away with a combat system invented before automated computing made "turns" more or less obselete.

With:

I've never backed off from this position. TB in many ways has been rendered obsolete by automation. It's not nessessary to take turns to resolve combat in an RPG setting any longer.

It's been many people's opinions that this is wrong. But it hasn't been proven wrong. They really just cried a lot and complained how real RPGs have to be TB or they're just not really RPGs.

I don't give a fuck what you said in earlier posts. What you're expressing above isn't an opinion. You're stating that TB is obsolete and that people have to "prove" you wrong.

If you want to say that this post doesn't reflect your true stance, then do so. Don't claim that it means something it doesn't. Especially after your attack on people who 'express their opinions as fact'.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You haven't threatened the hive mind's security in any real way.

And you have?

The truth is, if the "RPG authorities" here at RPGCODEX really wanted to save turnbased roleplaying they'd band together, form a development studio, and put THEIR balls on the line.

Why? People shouldn't make games to prove points, people should make games because they really, really want to make them.

If it was me, and I had to put food on the table and put my kids through college based on my art, then I'm sorry, but I'm not adjusting my work to please the die-hard minority.

Did you know that ToEE was the highest selling Atari game in 2003? Making turn-based games doesn't mean living in poverty.

 

[One Wolf]

As has been pointed out here before, having personal experience in a given medium isn't necessary to criticize said media. I do not need to be an author to complain about poor literature, I do not need to be director to ask for a film that revolves around some genre or interest I have.

 

[mister lamat]

And you have?

issuing ultimatums on who and why people are supposed to respond on an internet forum would suggest that a cage has been rattled to say the least.

since dark undergarments based his reason for the dumbfucking on an error are you going to move him back to illiterate?

 

[merry andrew]

issuing ultimatums on who and why people are supposed to respond on an internet forum would suggest that a cage has been rattled to say the least.

The 'ultimatum' was just to prove he wasn't deserving of his tag. I really don't think people are tagged here based on how much of a threat they are. If they were some kind of threat, wouldn't they at least be banned?

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

What is this bullshit about RT being the evolved version of TB? It's like trying to argue that Christians are evolved Buddhists. It's funny how no one is saying that TB is an evolved version of RT... probably because the ones arguing for TB actually understand the nature of RT.

Actually christians are "evolved" jews.

Well....I don't exactly want to totally divert the wonderful clusterfuck we have here....but actually I wouldn't call Christianity "evolved" in regards to Judaism. One of the major differences lies in the fact that Christianity uses the concept of eternal damnation, in the afterlife location of Hell, as a means of enforcing order, whereas Judaism has no such "big stick" to shake around. And if we extrapolate the ideal that capital punishment is not evolved onto the situation, we could gather that it is, in fact, the Jews who may perhaps be more "evolved"....although one could argue that Christianity is more evolved as it adapted to the times in adding consequences of immoral actions.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

I don't give a fuck what you said in earlier posts. What you're expressing above isn't an opinion. You're stating that TB is obsolete and that people have to "prove" you wrong.

Actually, "prove me wrong" was VD's arguement.

Almost all of my posts except for the first one is a response to somebody else who was probably responding to an earlier post of mine.

If you can't follow a linear line and take things in context then there's nothing I can do to help you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

issuing ultimatums on who and why people are supposed to respond on an internet forum would suggest that a cage has been rattled to say the least.

It amused me. You of all people should be able to understand this. Anyway, about the "ultimatum", surely you'd agree that the "threat" was superficial at best, considering that there was already one negative tag in place?

since dark undergarments based his reason for the dumbfucking on an error are you going to move him back to illiterate?

DU did it, he's the one to undo it. I can only say that I believe MVB's status should be moved back to "illiterate".

 

[mister lamat]

dunno. mebbe. mebbe not. issuing ultimatums and banning people are out of my purview and not something i care to experience.

i do think they're e-peen flexing and a lame form of communicating your desires to keep structure in a conversation, however. that's just me though and my opinion on the subject was relevant right up until i hit the submit button.

It amused me. You of all people should be able to understand this.

i can understand the amusement found in being a righteous prick. that's a given. pure joy that. i'm all about the rapier-like wit (oh ego... where would i be without you) as opposed to the punishment hammer, however. when it comes to the internet, the inmates must run the asylum. anything else is... not codexian.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

What is this bullshit about RT being the evolved version of TB? It's like trying to argue that Christians are evolved Buddhists. It's funny how no one is saying that TB is an evolved version of RT... probably because the ones arguing for TB actually understand the nature of RT.

Actually christians are "evolved" jews.

Well....I don't exactly want to totally divert the wonderful clusterfuck we have here....but actually I wouldn't call Christianity "evolved" in regards to Judaism. One of the major differences lies in the fact that Christianity uses the concept of eternal damnation, in the afterlife location of Hell, as a means of enforcing order, whereas Judaism has no such "big stick" to shake around. And if we extrapolate the ideal that capital punishment is not evolved onto the situation, we could gather that it is, in fact, the Jews who may perhaps be more "evolved"....although one could argue that Christianity is more evolved as it adapted to the times in adding consequences of immoral actions.

I was just joking, but your post was great none-the-less.

I didn't really mean that christianity was "truely" evolved beyond Jewdism. I was just trying to very briefly point back to my original statement's spirit and make a joke at the same time ...

That RT broke with the tradition of TB, being more advanced doesn't actually mean better in all reguards, and that the example that was used was a little broken.

I wasn't really serious, but I should probably edit that post as it doesn't say all that stuff well at first glance.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

FALLOUT 3 with RT

RULES

all that is you do is argue and make insults of each others. hardly intelligent

please come up with good debate sirs

and you make reference i do not understand on time to time

why is this

 

[merry andrew]

That RT broke with the tradition of TB, being more advanced doesn't actually mean better in all reguards, and that the example that was used was a little broken.

It's not really "advanced", though. If you want to argue advancement, go for the point that Oblivion is the latest and greatest advancement/evolution of the RPG genre (as have many critics).

 

[sqeecoo]

You tried your best to piss people off since your first day. Do you have a tag? No. I once had an epic battle with Role-Player who dared to insult what I hold as the most Holy - a diplomatic path in RPGs. It was a very heated discussion, yet RP can argue, present and defend his points skillfully. I didn't give him any tags. Instead I invited him to join the staff, and was very glad when he agreed.

Woooo where was that? Could you point it out, or at least give me some nice keyword to search for?

But just keep in mind that the majority of the venom is just opinion from your point of view, not fact. Given that, conflicting opinions are just as valid until one side or the other can actually prove their position is the correct one.

Bullshit. No one can ever prove anything (no, really, they can't). Stuff is discussed, and everyone walks away with his opinion. But the discussion is not meaningless, nor are the arguments: new ideas can come up, and those who are somewhat open-minded can improve their theories.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

That RT broke with the tradition of TB, being more advanced doesn't actually mean better in all reguards, and that the example that was used was a little broken.

It's not really "advanced", though. If you want to argue advancement, go for the point that Oblivion is the latest and greatest advancement/evolution of the RPG genre (as have many critics).

Laminated playing cards are more advanced than the original medieval playing cards. Yet, you can't write too well on a laminated card and on the originals you could.

Just one example of advanced not always meaning an overall evolution and increase in superiority in all reguards.

When something advances, very often, something is lost for those new things gained.

 

[merry andrew]

Just one example of advanced not always meaning an overall evolution and increase in superiority in all reguards.

So why again is TB obsolete?

 

[trais]

Laminated playing cards are more advanced than the original medieval playing cards. Yet, you can't write too well on a laminated card and on the originals you could.

Just one example of advanced not always meaning an overall evolution and increase in superiority in all reguards.

When something advances, very often, something is lost for those new things gained.

Yeah, and that's why TB system wouldn't be such a good idea on First Person Shooter.
Still, it's works great in RPGs, tho.

 

[elander_]

TB is the evolution of RT for role playing. Now they want to pretend that going backwards is evolution. Yup sometimes evolution goes backwards.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Just one example of advanced not always meaning an overall evolution and increase in superiority in all reguards.

So why again is TB obsolete?

In my opinion? TB combat resolution is obsolete in reguards to efficient combat resolution according to time spent. Computer automation and sophistication has seemingly presented a new option.

Now others have said that a very optimized, very well designed TB system could compete with RT in this reguard.

Fair enough, but then again a very optimized, very well designed RT system might be able to compete with TB on the other side of the coin.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

You tried your best to piss people off since your first day. Do you have a tag? No. I once had an epic battle with Role-Player who dared to insult what I hold as the most Holy - a diplomatic path in RPGs. It was a very heated discussion, yet RP can argue, present and defend his points skillfully. I didn't give him any tags. Instead I invited him to join the staff, and was very glad when he agreed.

Woooo where was that? Could you point it out, or at least give me some nice keyword to search for?

But just keep in mind that the majority of the venom is just opinion from your point of view, not fact. Given that, conflicting opinions are just as valid until one side or the other can actually prove their position is the correct one.

Bullshit. No one can ever prove anything (no, really, they can't). Stuff is discussed, and everyone walks away with his opinion. But the discussion is not meaningless, nor are the arguments: new ideas can come up, and those who are somewhat open-minded can improve their theories.

Science must be shit out luck then. At some point on a matter of fact or opinion it must be yeilded that there is enough valid proof presented to except one's findings as a fact.

Not that it can't be invalidated later should new facts arrise, but that at the time of consideration the burden was met with valid findings and the item in question should be considered a fact.

On observable items, it's easy to judge a position as fact or unsubstantiated opinion based on the proof presented. On matters of math, one system of solution, is forming a "proof."

Somethings can be proven, just not often matters of taste and raw opinion.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

TB is the evolution of RT for role playing. Now they want to pretend that going backwards is evolution. Yup sometimes evolution goes backwards.

RPG, not just roleplaying in general. There has to be a gaming element. LARPers and society queens playing at dinner theater are not examples of role playing games.

Battle reenacters are roleplaying, but they aren't gaming.

 

[MountainWest]

Almost all of my posts except for the first one is a response to somebody else who was probably responding to an earlier post of mine.

Alright. Lets check what you responded to:

Your first post:

I love turn-based for the amount of micro-managed strategy it allows. I also hate the amount of time it takes to micro-manage said strategy. Turn based is great for "thinking man's" games, games that require the player to agonize over every possible action and consequence in order to proceed successfully to victory over one's adversary.

I don't think RPGs have to fit this model. I don't think fallout has to fit this model. Given the nature of the setting, the frequency of conflict expected, and the time all that would absorb, I'd prefer that it wasn't turnbased.

You're not stating TB as obsolete. As a matter of fact: you don't say anything about TB being obsolete or not. You say that Fallout doesn't have to be TB, but you're not giving a reason to why = You have not yet given your opinion on whether TB is obsolete or not.

Then The Prick writes:

Fucking savages. When I want real time combat, I go play Far Cry. When I want to play an RPG that makes me use my intelligence (what all RPG's should be about), I want FULLY turn-based combat. Daggerfall's combat sucks balls, but the world is huge enough and the quests are plenty enough to get enjoyment out of the game.

Fallout 3: Halo Wars Theft Auto by the "geniuses' behind Oblivion is GOING to suck. I hate being reminded of it everyday; being reminded that Bethesda sucks goat balls and they don't know how to make games but are masters of hype and all that bullshit, and I especially hate the fact the millions of people by the hype.

Sadistic fucks.
Move on to the next depressing topic...

You answer:

If RPGs were truely about using intellect then they'd resemble the ASVAB more than a game.

I don't think my willingness to experience a role and the dramatic consequences of that role in real time renders me a savage.

I think it just means that I'm not affraid of doing away with a combat system invented before automated computing made "turns" more or less obselete.

I think people are also misunderstanding my stance though. I'm not pro anything. I just don't mind that Fallout may or may not be turnbased.

Little of my pure enjoyment of fallout was because it was turnbased.

Guess what? TB being obsolete isn't presented as an opinion, it's presented as a fact. The opinion presented - in this post, of course; it seems to change from post to post - is that TB or RT doesn't matter.

Then you and Twinfalls get into an argument and you write:

Sure bethesda is going to fuck up Fallout, I just don't think real time is the linch pin.

Twinfalls answers:

Please don't back away from your previous assertions that TB is obsolete and that RT is a progression 'beyond' TB, unless you have accepted that you are wrong.

And you answer:

I'm not backing away from that, my response was fair.

I'm not saying TB must be done away with, and I think people get that, I'm just saying that progressive developement has presented developers with options beyond turnbased.

Here you don't use the word obsolete. Good boy. Instead you state that RT is beyond TB. Again, you're not presenting it as an opinion but as a fact. Naughty boy.

Then VD quotes you as a reason for your illiterate-tag:

You are. However, that's not why I picked this quote. Here is why: "... doing away with a combat system invented before automated computing made "turns" more or less obselete. "

Your answer?

I've never backed off from this position. TB in many ways has been rendered obsolete by automation. It's not nessessary to take turns to resolve combat in an RPG setting any longer.

It's been many people's opinions that this is wrong. But it hasn't been proven wrong. They really just cried a lot and complained how real RPGs have to be TB or they're just not really RPGs.

What-the-fuck-ever

For the third time not presented as an opinion but as a fact.

And blah blah blah, opinions left, opinions right, I didn't say that, I'm just misunderstood, and more blah blah blah.

Anyway, enjoy your tag. I thought it was a bit harsh at first, but I guess you've earned it.