Bioshock Infinite - the $200 million 6 hour literally on rails interactive movie with guns thread

PlanHex · Oct 18, 2013

Metro said:
Why do people keep talking about this shitty game?

Explanation featuring popamole from the 80s:
http://youtu.be/VdNhwb7iuI4?t=35m34s

sea · Oct 18, 2013

36 minutes is nothing. smudboy has everyone beat in terms of both quality of critique and, of course, length:

Jack · Oct 18, 2013

Antisocialfatman.

Edit: Godammit AngryEddy, now this makes no sense.

Shadenuat · Oct 19, 2013

Smudboy can be really terrible to watch. It's not that his arguments don't make sense (although sometimes he makes mistakes), but to be comprehensible arguments should flow one after another in natural fashion. His videos often work like that giant list of 100 nitpickings, where he can spend minutes rambling about "the hook is magnetized!", or even "America had F-15's!". Maybe hook can work somehow, maybe America did not get supersonic jets in Bioshock's setting, maybe WW2 was different. Who knows? It doesn't matter when talking about Bioshock's plot. Now, bringing stuff like "grandfather paradox" to it does matter, because parallel universes is what the plot about, and it's right to dismantle the plot using tools like that. When you can't pack your arguments in a 20-30 minutes video and don't edit out unnecessary crap like repetitions (I remember in Bioshock videos he was talking about jets somewhere, let's say in 2nd video, and then again if 4th, like he forgot which points he already made and which he didn't), imo you failed in making an argument, or at least a presentation interesting to watch.

When it comes to plot imo it makes lot more sense to try and figure out why A+B does not work, than why just A is wrong. Otherwise you can just ramble forever why a city in the clouds can't exist, ect.

AngryEddy · Oct 19, 2013

Jack said:
Antisocialfatman.

Edit: Godammit AngryEddy, now this makes no sense.

I thought I deleted my comment fast enough, since I found out the guy's name on my subscription list, moments after asking my question. For posterity, and your honor, I will repeat the question:

"Who was that guy on Youtube who did the Bioshock 1 critique who compared it to System Shock, and had fat something in his name, who later died of an embolism? I can't find him."

AngryEddy · Oct 19, 2013

Shadenuat said:
Smudboy can be really terrible to watch. It's not that his arguments don't make sense (although sometimes he makes mistakes), but to be comprehensible arguments should flow one after another in natural fashion. His videos often work like that giant list of 100 nitpickings, where he can spend minutes rambling about "the hook is magnetized!", or even "America had F-15's!". Maybe hook can work somehow, maybe America did not get supersonic jets in Bioshock's setting, maybe WW2 was different. Who knows? It doesn't matter when talking about Bioshock's plot. Now, bringing stuff like "grandfather paradox" to it does matter, because parallel universes is what the plot about, and it's right to dismantle the plot using tools like that. When you can't pack your arguments in a 20-30 minutes video and don't edit out unnecessary crap like repetitions (I remember in Bioshock videos he was talking about jets somewhere, let's say in 2nd video, and then again if 4th, like he forgot which points he already made and which he didn't), imo you failed in making an argument, or at least a presentation interesting to watch.

Honestly, Smudboy is trying to recapture his 15 minutes of fame that he got when he did the Mass Effect 3 critique. I don't really have a problem with the guy, but he comes off as way too pretentious, and fame hungry, and like you said, all he does nowadays is nitpick. It's over pal, you had your fun in the spotlight; time to move on.

I will say in his defense, that just on a mechanical level, he is much better than Errant Signal. Then again, I haven't really watched Smudboy's latest videos outside of his Mass Effect 3 500k view video, and his more recent Bioshock infinite review.

Jick Magger · Oct 19, 2013

Fun fact: I uploaded a mirror to his video rebuttal of CleverNoob's video on how the video game crash will repeat itself, which was taken down in short order with a false DMCA notice from CN.

Few weeks later, Smudboy contacted me, said he intends to chase CleverNoobs up legally in regards to the takedown, and asked for the DMCA report filed against me. I decided 'fuck it', and did just that. Don't know if anything's really come from it since then.

His real name's Stefan.

sea · Oct 19, 2013

Shadenuat said:
Smudboy can be really terrible to watch. It's not that his arguments don't make sense (although sometimes he makes mistakes), but to be comprehensible arguments should flow one after another in natural fashion. His videos often work like that giant list of 100 nitpickings, where he can spend minutes rambling about "the hook is magnetized!", or even "America had F-15's!". Maybe hook can work somehow, maybe America did not get supersonic jets in Bioshock's setting, maybe WW2 was different. Who knows? It doesn't matter when talking about Bioshock's plot. Now, bringing stuff like "grandfather paradox" to it does matter, because parallel universes is what the plot about, and it's right to dismantle the plot using tools like that. When you can't pack your arguments in a 20-30 minutes video and don't edit out unnecessary crap like repetitions (I remember in Bioshock videos he was talking about jets somewhere, let's say in 2nd video, and then again if 4th, like he forgot which points he already made and which he didn't), imo you failed in making an argument, or at least a presentation interesting to watch.

When it comes to plot imo it makes lot more sense to try and figure out why A+B does not work, than why just A is wrong. Otherwise you can just ramble forever why a city in the clouds can't exist, ect.

My perspective on storytelling is that it's impossible to make a large audience care through direct manipulation; you can get a few dummies by kicking the dog etc., but overall your job as an author relies upon the faith your audience has in you to remain logically consistent with respect to characters, setting, and plot events. Therefore it's imperative to do your best to define rules that the audience can believe in and have everything you write follow those. Obviously, there are exceptions - but you need to be good at what you do before you can know when to break the rules. Suspension of disbelief - of which emotional engagement is a product - relies on that consistency first and foremost.

Therefore I don't see smudboy's videos as "just nitpicking". We need people to nitpick the shit out of everything, because it does matter - because a plot hole is a plot hole no matter how small, and if the author did his/her job correctly, it shouldn't exist. Doesn't matter whether mass audiences don't pay enough attention not to notice, or if it doesn't really impact the overall story too much - it's still there. As someone who has worked creatively on a variety of writing-related projects and occupations, I very much appreciate that kind of bitter asshole that's ready to call me out on all my shit - it helps me learn, makes me better, and lets me fix problems that much more easily.

Shadenuat · Oct 19, 2013

I said that pacing of his videos is ass, and you are giving me a preaching on plot holes and suspension of disbelief Sea. Existence of ancient Egyptians does not equal a plot hole for Bioshock Infinity, and many of his arguments are just about his own disbelief into things. I remember he stated that audio logs from original Bioshock made Rapture more believable for him, while in gaming sense the whole underwater city was a bunch of strange neon bathed ruins filled with psychos, vending machines and other crap, and no audio logs would make me personally believe that somebody ever lived there. You could point out the problem and say that Bioshock Infinity does not take a job to explain itself properly, or does not lend player any instruments to do so (like "?" option in System Shock 2's interface, for example), but instead guy just wonders "why are there balloons everywhere". This mix of good arguments and his constant search what more he could stick himself to is just not very interesting to watch, while there are other people who point out game's problems a lot faster and more accurately.

I'd gladly discuss with you if bitter asshole approach is valid or not as I have my opinion on that (I believe that it's not worth it), but the goddamn asian chick just freaks me out and I just can't focus myself when you Stare at me from page with her avatar, fuck :rage:

sea · Oct 19, 2013

In his defense, BioShock provided explanations and hand-waves for most of it sillier elements, like how Rapture was built in the first place. BioShock Infinite strays into the realm of completely unbelievable, meaningless technobabble that it frequently violates or contradicts minutes after explaining. When he complains about the balloons, that's exactly what he's pointing out - that the explanation given makes no sense, and might even be contradicted later on (like the "quantum mechanics" bullshit which makes even less sense than balloons and rockets).

BioShock Infinite is one gigantic voodoo shark.

Jick Magger · Oct 19, 2013

The audience can accept bullshit, so long as you're consistent with your bullshit. It's the reason why (at least early) Star Trek gets a pass these days despite most of the technological innovations are simply impossible in the real world, same thing with Bioshock. Infinite tries for this route, but at the same time basically constantly resorting to the "It's quantum mechanics/tears, I don't have to explain shit". If your explanation of how all this works is fucking bullshit, just go for the Star Wars route of avoiding discussing them altogether.

DeepOcean · Oct 19, 2013

Jick_Magger_101 said:
The audience can accept bullshit, so long as you're consistent with your bullshit. It's the reason why (at least early) Star Trek gets a pass these days despite most of the technological innovations are simply impossible in the real world, same thing with Bioshock. Infinite tries for this route, but at the same time basically constantly resorting to the "It's quantum mechanics/tears, I don't have to explain shit". If your explanation of how all this works is fucking bullshit, just go for the Star Wars route of avoiding discussing them altogether.

The problem is that Ken Lavine had bigger ambitions, he had to explain things trying to be way more intelligent than he really is. He tought into creating a really complex and multi layed story but delivered a mess because it is obvious that he isn't a talented writer so he had to dail back and used the quantum bullshit to hide the fact that he gave up on making the story of this game coherent. In reality, the story of this game is just a bunch of random things, many times contrived things, that are stitched together with quantum bullshit.

Every time a character mention quantum physics, it is a fuck you from Lavine to the player. It is quite sad that people didn't even noticed how they were treated like morons. When a writer go down into the level of charlatans that appear on shows for bored housewifes trying to explain how quantum physics explain angels, spirits, possessions, astrology and other bullshit then is lauded as a brillant writer... you know that gamming is full of morons and can't be considerated an art because it doesn't fucking deserve it (I don't care about that shit, but the people who cares should stop asking why games aren't considerated art when the anwer is fucking obvious). The very fact that the only thing remotely worthy of talking about in a game it is it's non-interactive story... shows everything you need to know.

Average Manatee · Oct 19, 2013

index.php said:
Gamespot retroactively gives Bioshock Infinite a 4/10:

http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/bioshock-infinite-a-fan-scorned/1900-6415464/

Jesus christ. I've seen sites that backpedal on how good an old game was in order to build up anticipation for the next Citizen Kane of the month, but now they literally have not an ounce of shame left.

hiver · Oct 19, 2013

sea said:
Shadenuat said:

Smudboy can be really terrible to watch. It's not that his arguments don't make sense (although sometimes he makes mistakes), but to be comprehensible arguments should flow one after another in natural fashion. His videos often work like that giant list of 100 nitpickings, where he can spend minutes rambling about "the hook is magnetized!", or even "America had F-15's!". Maybe hook can work somehow, maybe America did not get supersonic jets in Bioshock's setting, maybe WW2 was different. Who knows? It doesn't matter when talking about Bioshock's plot. Now, bringing stuff like "grandfather paradox" to it does matter, because parallel universes is what the plot about, and it's right to dismantle the plot using tools like that. When you can't pack your arguments in a 20-30 minutes video and don't edit out unnecessary crap like repetitions (I remember in Bioshock videos he was talking about jets somewhere, let's say in 2nd video, and then again if 4th, like he forgot which points he already made and which he didn't), imo you failed in making an argument, or at least a presentation interesting to watch.

When it comes to plot imo it makes lot more sense to try and figure out why A+B does not work, than why just A is wrong. Otherwise you can just ramble forever why a city in the clouds can't exist, ect.

Click to expand...

My perspective on storytelling is that it's impossible to make a large audience care through direct manipulation; you can get a few dummies by kicking the dog etc., but overall your job as an author relies upon the faith your audience has in you to remain logically consistent with respect to characters, setting, and plot events. Therefore it's imperative to do your best to define rules that the audience can believe in and have everything you write follow those. Obviously, there are exceptions - but you need to be good at what you do before you can know when to break the rules. Suspension of disbelief - of which emotional engagement is a product - relies on that consistency first and foremost.

Therefore I don't see smudboy's videos as "just nitpicking". We need people to nitpick the shit out of everything, because it does matter - because a plot hole is a plot hole no matter how small, and if the author did his/her job correctly, it shouldn't exist. Doesn't matter whether mass audiences don't pay enough attention not to notice, or if it doesn't really impact the overall story too much - it's still there. As someone who has worked creatively on a variety of writing-related projects and occupations, I very much appreciate that kind of bitter asshole that's ready to call me out on all my shit - it helps me learn, makes me better, and lets me fix problems that much more easily.

Shadenuat said:
I said that pacing of his videos is ass, and you are giving me a preaching on plot holes and suspension of disbelief Sea. Existence of ancient Egyptians does not equal a plot hole for Bioshock Infinity, and many of his arguments are just about his own disbelief into things. I remember he stated that audio logs from original Bioshock made Rapture more believable for him, while in gaming sense the whole underwater city was a bunch of strange neon bathed ruins filled with psychos, vending machines and other crap, and no audio logs would make me personally believe that somebody ever lived there. You could point out the problem and say that Bioshock Infinity does not take a job to explain itself properly, or does not lend player any instruments to do so (like "?" option in System Shock 2's interface, for example), but instead guy just wonders "why are there balloons everywhere". This mix of good arguments and his constant search what more he could stick himself to is just not very interesting to watch, while there are other people who point out game's problems a lot faster and more accurately.

I'd gladly discuss with you if bitter asshole approach is valid or not as I have my opinion on that (I believe that it's not worth it), but the goddamn asian chick just freaks me out and I just can't focus myself when you Stare at me from page with her avatar, fuck -

Well, in addition to what sea said, as to your specific point, you went and said that argument is invalid if presentation doesnt suit you - which is pretty illogical thing to claim, wouldnt you agree?

like he forgot which points he already made and which he didn't), imo you failed in making an argument, or at least a presentation interesting to watch.

Very cheap.

in fact, that whole quoted line could be a perfect cheapness litmus test example, or serve as a basis of a definition..
Presentation being interesting to watch or not - does not make any of the arguments invalid - even if they are repeated in a few places.
Not to mention they are maybe repeated for a purpose - like to drive the point even deeper.

even if not but its just a ordinary mistake, - dont matter to validity of arguments - at all.

i mean, surely you can project into what territory such logic leads into, right?

Telengard · Oct 19, 2013

Shadenuat said:
I said that pacing of his videos is ass, and you are giving me a preaching on plot holes and suspension of disbelief Sea. Existence of ancient Egyptians does not equal a plot hole for Bioshock Infinity, and many of his arguments are just about his own disbelief into things. I remember he stated that audio logs from original Bioshock made Rapture more believable for him, while in gaming sense the whole underwater city was a bunch of strange neon bathed ruins filled with psychos, vending machines and other crap, and no audio logs would make me personally believe that somebody ever lived there. You could point out the problem and say that Bioshock Infinity does not take a job to explain itself properly, or does not lend player any instruments to do so (like "?" option in System Shock 2's interface, for example), but instead guy just wonders "why are there balloons everywhere". This mix of good arguments and his constant search what more he could stick himself to is just not very interesting to watch, while there are other people who point out game's problems a lot faster and more accurately.

I'd gladly discuss with you if bitter asshole approach is valid or not as I have my opinion on that (I believe that it's not worth it), but the goddamn asian chick just freaks me out and I just can't focus myself when you Stare at me from page with her avatar, fuck

Smudboy's major issue isn't nitpicking, it's that he doesn't use a through-line argument in an essay that is an hour long. He should be consistently stating how each of his points relates to his overall themes. But he doesn't, because I guess he's expecting everyone will simply follow the logic of his arguments. Which is wrong wrong wrong.

1) The jet issue isn't about jets. Smudboy does not properly illustrate the contradiction he is pointing out. He does show a display of a number of anti-aircraft weaponry, but does not mention that display, unfortunately. But neither is the example he should have used to illustrate his point, anyway. To really lay home his point, he should have said - Balloons are a nineteen-teens technology. They can be shot down with handguns. This is America, goddamit. In the 80s. And New York for Christ's sakes. Every gang-banger, Vietnam vet, and grandma would be out there on the rooftops and hanging out of windows gunning all those fucking BALLOONS down to hell. And there isn't a fucking thing a BALLOON could do about it. Not to mention, America by the 80s has jets, tanks, and fucking anti-aircraft weaponry! Here is a list of American anti-aircraft weaponry from fucking WWII, any one of which could gun down the entire structure of Rapture. So, what, did American technology not advance at all in the past 70 years? Because if it didn't, Levine, you have to SHOW me it didn't. Otherwise your alternate version of "history" is sucking ass, hard.

2) Smudboy's point with the balloons is that the people of Rapture say the city floats because of quantum, but visually the city floats because of hot air. Here he leaves out the proper concluding sentence, which is - You don't fucking need both, so why am I constantly getting both? And then smudboy needs to bridge that point back to his main overall argument, that the the story is not consistent with the fantasy world's own logic. And he needs to do so with each point he makes, instead of assuming that his audience will continue to logically relate each topic to his main point themselves. Because in an essay this long, doing so allows the audience to properly follow along with his arguments.

3) His organization is problematic for a video too. Smudboy should have drawn a sharp line when he was transitioning to his conclusion, particularly when his essay was across 4 videos. Because as it is, there is little transition, and thus the conclusion ends up feeling like another argument, until one realizes it isn't and he has begun summarizing his main points and illustrations.

Smudboy's overall argument was that the entire fantasy world built in the game is inconsistent, because even the foundational elements of its story are inconsistent. And then he proceeds to take each foundational element in turn and show how each one undermines itself. Until finally stating that the only thing that can be built from such an un-solid foundation is a broken mess. Unfortunately, smudboy does not drive it home that that is what is doing while he is doing it. Which is a big mistake.

sea · Oct 19, 2013

Jick_Magger_101 said:
The audience can accept bullshit, so long as you're consistent with your bullshit. It's the reason why (at least early) Star Trek gets a pass these days despite most of the technological innovations are simply impossible in the real world, same thing with Bioshock. Infinite tries for this route, but at the same time basically constantly resorting to the "It's quantum mechanics/tears, I don't have to explain shit". If your explanation of how all this works is fucking bullshit, just go for the Star Wars route of avoiding discussing them altogether.

See this article I wrote on this topic:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchw..._the_Importance_of_the_Authorial_Contract.php

I repeat a lot of what I already said, but most important is the fact that time travel is hard and will destroy any setting or story without clearly defined rules. BioShock Infinite literally has a story where by the end there are infinite possibilities - which means there are no rules, and therefore no tension or drama because the audience has no conception of what could or should happen. Even in Star Trek, they tend to define rules for how time travel works - even if it's only consistent for the single episode it's in.

Now, I bring up Back to the Future jokingly in that article, but what I don't say is that it gets away with it because of its tone and themes - that is, it's a comedy, so we can ignore those things since they aren't really important to the story. But BioShock Infinite isn't some stupid Disney movie or a comedy, it tries to be some sort of serious, artistic commentary on life, the universe and everything, and it can't even get the basics right, so those issues with consistency matter substantially more than they would otherwise.

Unkillable Cat · Oct 24, 2013

If people haven't had enough of BSI, then there's this article:

http://tevisthompson.com/on-videogame-reviews/

Clockwork Knight · Nov 7, 2013

Hey, Ken Levine!

dunno lah · Nov 7, 2013

Fuck! It was a trap!

Well...maybe not for most of you.

:codexisforindividualswithgenderidentityissues:

FeelTheRads · Nov 7, 2013

What's with the thimble? Am I missing something?
Some things are too much for me.

felipepepe · Nov 7, 2013

First 5 minutes of Burial at the Sea on IGN:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/11...mind?utm_campaign=fbposts&utm_source=facebook

The opening scene alone is pitch perfect film noir and masterfully executed. Booker’s office is almost completely in shadow, the only light coming from the blinds, its tendrils reaching through the dust motes that hover heavy in the air before striking the far wall. Elizabeth – exquisitely manicured – comes through the door and stands by the window, her face hidden in shadow until she asks for a light and Booker provides it with a click of his fingers. It’s a wonderful reveal and the dialogue that follows is every bit as hardboiled as you’d expect from the setting.

So, doing the most cliched stuff possible is now "perfect and martefully executed". Cool.

Minttunator · Nov 7, 2013

jcd · Nov 7, 2013

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