Company News Biowarian Profile: Brenon Holmes

[taks]

That was a joke referring to Sherlock Holmes and his famous deductive method.

gotcha...

tricrit:
you, btw, were the one that injected the straw-man argument. you also injected the political reference that had even less to do with what i said. i'm still not sure how you think i compared toee with NWN? how exactly am i supposed to react when you're behaving like a childish ass for no apparent reason other than we disagree on something. if you choose to be an ass, i will treat you as such.

your argument becomes even more laughable when you take a look at my context and realize i was only trying to provide a "devil's advocate" position as to why he may have stated things the way he did. so, in response, you start slinging insults and politics, of all things. incorrectly slinging politics as well. as i said, those with theses under their belts should be better at this than you have demonstrated...

identical, btw, means just that. not just lacking in individualizing qualities. everything is the same, even underlying mechamisms. indistinguishable allows for some underlying, but unnoticeable, mechanism to be different. the original comments were strictly stated to imply that given appropriate features, you can't tell the difference in behavior.

taks

 

[triCritical]

btw, VD, what i meant is that the pause is after each person's individual round (i used round since generally we're talking D&D which has both). i'm not trying to imply it has ever been implemented that way, either.

Then how do you play it without pausing. That game would just look silly? Bioware likes to use an X second round system. In which all characters move simultaneously. Fundamentally, especially AI wise, this system is horrible for tactics, especially with moving characters. One improvement in KotOR, by eliminating movement in combat.

The point is that you cannot take a system that was designed to temporally map features into a TB system and turn it into a system that has mapped those features into a simultanous round feature. An example would be the interrupt. Does an interrupt have any applicability in a Biowarian system, where it is crucial in a TB system. TB systems make movement and not movement related action get put on the same scale, whereas phase base systems do not, because there 6 second round distorts reality too, but in a different way.

There are huge fundamental differences between the two, that I have argued for 5 friggin years on the BIS boards, and it still hurt my ears to this day to hear that there the same. I have heard people like Feargus say this, but it does not surprise me to hear Bioware say this. But you...

 

[taks]

edit...

taks

 

[Volourn]

"Does an interrupt have any applicability in a Biowarian system?"

Yes. Absolutely, yes. Anyone who has played NWN for more than 2s eocnds would no this. come back when you've play the game. kthnxbye.

 

[triCritical]

identical, btw, means just that. not just lacking in individualizing qualities. everything is the same, even underlying mechamisms. indistinguishable allows for some underlying, but unnoticeable, mechanism to be different. the original comments were strictly stated to imply that given appropriate features, you can't tell the difference in behavior.

If you cannot discern any properties that distinguish the two, how can you, the observer say that they are not identical. Of course unless someone told you, but how do you know they are not just making it all up. That is the point. To say something is undistinguishable would require that they be identical for the person making the claim. In reality two indistuishable people may look identical, but inside one is wires and gears, and the other is bones and blood. But unless you open them up you cannot tell.

I am well aware of this distinction and made it abundantly clear in my argument. Read it again, if you will. Conclusion, if the TB is to be indistinguishable from RT, then to the observer, they are for all intents and purposes, identical.

BTW, I work in a company now with 127,000 people, in which 125,432 are republican. And we can all laugh at the fact that George W Bush has made up his own dictionary, so get a grip.

 

[triCritical]

"Does an interrupt have any applicability in a Biowarian system?"

Yes. Absolutely, yes. Anyone who has played NWN for more than 2s eocnds would no this. come back when you've play the game. kthnxbye.

Stop smoking pot. Why do you need an interrupt when you can you just pause and attack a new person in real time. It was a pointless feature that makes no sense in RT.

 

[taks]

Then how do you play it without pausing. That game would just look silly?

not pausing? i strictly said WITH pausing... edit: my original comment was about pausing after each individual person's round/turn whereas all current RT w/pause systems pause after a round for everybody, i.e. once ever 6 seconds.

Bioware likes to use an X second round system. In which all characters move simultaneously. Fundamentally, especially AI wise, this system is horrible for tactics, especially with moving characters. One improvement in KotOR, by eliminating movement in combat.

because D&D actually defined a "round" as 6 seconds and a "turn" as 10 rounds. also note, i've clearly made my case against AI in RT many other times, btw. the biggie i have is that the AI executes it's rounds perfectly while the RT w/ pause system requires that you either a) pause every stinking round... might as well be TB or b) dumb down the AI so that it skips rounds or something.

The point is that you cannot take a system that was designed to temporally map features into a TB system and turn it into a system that has mapped those features into a simultanous round feature. An example would be the interrupt. Does an interrupt have any applicability in a Biowarian system, where it is crucial in a TB system. TB systems make movement and not movement related action get put on the same scale, whereas phase base systems do not, because there 6 second round distorts reality too, but in a different way.

i've never argued against this point.

There are huge fundamental differences between the two, that I have argued for 5 friggin years on the BIS boards, and it still hurt my ears to this day to hear that there the same.

the only point i tried to make is the "devil's advocate" stand for what was originally stated. particularly, that RT with enough features, it can be made to look like TB. BUT, i've continued, it would take a LOT of features. particularly pause after each round. btw, there's nothing preventing continuing animations from occuring which allows a continual flow of the action during each round after the pause. remember, the TB system in D&D is simply to figure out a way to simulate RT combat in real-life (well, as real as is imaginable).

I have heard people like Feargus say this, but it does not surprise me to hear Bioware say this. But you...

this, btw, was no reason for you to sling insults my way without at least pointing out the "jab" in my direction as a joke... that was undeserved.

taks

 

[taks]

BTW, I work in a company now with 127,000 people, in which 125,432 are republican. And we can all laugh at the fact that George W Bush has made up his own dictionary, so get a grip.

clinton, too... well, he asked to have 'sex' defined. still an unnecessary jab that had nothing to do with the debate nor was it correct. i'm not a republican either. though waaaay off topic, i actually come up left of center politically given my religious beliefs.

taks

 

[Volourn]

Tri, go play the game. Otherwise you are just being ignorant in how NWN combat actually works. Not surprising though.

 

[Araanor]

Turn-based combat has sequence. There is no way you could mangle a real-time system into aping that feature while actually keeping it real-time.

 

[taks]

Turn-based combat has sequence. There is no way you could mangle a real-time system into aping that feature while actually keeping it real-time.

it would be quite easy, actually, in a single player game. even with party based systems, i see no problem with a pause at the end of a round, all critters and characters select their next round of action, then un-pause and a seamless flow through the next round even though the behind-the-scene die rolls are actually executed in order of occurence.

sequence, btw, is part of the problem with TB, IMO. the only reason pnp TB systems have sequence is because we can't perform all those actions simultaneously. this is probably the leading argument for RT w/pause. pnp REQUIRES TB combat. computers don't.

taks

 

[Jed]

I should have specified ranged spells and other ranged combat are atrocious in RT. The enemy closes to melee-range so quickly that you can't even really take avantage of the whole point of using a ranged attack.

Also, in response to taks, again, RT relies on the player's skills, not the character's. You could very well have people acting out combat with fake swords and what-not in a PnP session, but then it would have everything to do with the player and nothing of the character. What do you think all those stats are for, anyway? Why is this such a difficult thing to get across?

 

[Volourn]

Huh? Whenever I play I have plenty of time to get off ranged spells and rnaged missles weapons off. Perhaps you just suck.

 

[taks]

I should have specified ranged spells and other ranged combat are atrocious in RT. The enemy closes to melee-range so quickly that you can't even really take avantage of the whole point of using a ranged attack.

i agree. that's an AI failing, too, as well as an interface failing. technically, i think any real party would put their ranged characters at a range of more than 30 feet.

Also, in response to taks, again, RT relies on the player's skills, not the character's. You could very well have people acting out combat with fake swords and what-not in a PnP session, but then it would have everything to do with the player and nothing of the character. What do you think all those stats are for, anyway? Why is this such a difficult thing to get across?

what's that got to do with anything i've said? given that, what is it that you haven't been able to get across to me? i agree that RT relies on the player's skills, hence my comment about dumbing down the AI (because the AI never misses a round). the other option is to pause after every freaking round, which implies you'd rather play a TB game anyway... the stats still have a major impact, because you need them to hit in the first place...

taks

 

[Jed]

sequence, btw, is part of the problem with TB, IMO. the only reason pnp TB systems have sequence is because we can't perform all those actions simultaneously. this is probably the leading argument for RT w/pause. pnp REQUIRES TB combat. computers don't.

In addition, things like sequence are Good Things because they give extra weight to stats like DEX. The way a lot of RT CrPGs play seem to devalue all stats other than STR & HPs.

@Volur ;n- Try playing NWN as a Mage specialized in Evocation. The issue isn't "getting the spells off in time," the issue is spells not hitting the targets because the targets have moved too far, or the target being hit for very little damage and coming into melee on your Wiz. Wiz + Melee = Bad Thing, generally. Unless it's you, who everything works out for as long as it's a BioWare game. Oops, I'm sorry. I lied again. BTW, what the fuck is up your tight ass today?

 

[Spazmo]

Well, Jed, the Volourn as a woman theory would suggest "she" is fresh off her menstruation, but I prefer to think Volourn is just a stupid asshole.

 

[Volourn]

Sure, it's not easy to time it with spells like fireball. then again, it should be. No matter how smart a wizard is he should not be able to palce a fireball right down to the exact milimetre. This is one of the coolest yet most annoying features of TOEE. You cna lay down your fireballs perfectly. And, what ya mean? Fireballs do little damage? Hehehe. That's gotta be a joke. And, oh, I have played an Invoker. Sure, timing is challenging just like if you are playing pnp properly it should be. Of course, though you have a semi point with spells still don't know how this effects missle weapons. And, on top of that, with spells like stoneskin and the like, a wizard shouldn't fear melee too much.

P.S. Stop looking at my ass. Whether it is tight or loose should be irrelevant to the discussion so don't make it an issue. Thanks. :D

I'm an asshole because I disagree about X's comment that magic and missle weapons are gimped? r00fles!

 

[Jed]

I didn't say anything about placing a fireball "within a milimeter," I said ranged attacks are gimped in RT because the enemy can close to melee either by dodging your attack or because ranged is so gimped they are hardly fazed before closing to melee. Stoneskin is pretty good, but you don't always have a chance to cast it, and honestly with hackfests like BioWare games, I can't afford to waste a spell slot on defensive spells.

I'm not so much looking at your ass as you just seem to keep showing it.

 

[Araanor]

it would be quite easy, actually, in a single player game. even with party based systems, i see no problem with a pause at the end of a round, all critters and characters select their next round of action, then un-pause and a seamless flow through the next round even though the behind-the-scene die rolls are actually executed in order of occurence.

Very well. Allow me to elucidate on some of the features I associate to sequence in the context of turn-based combat (whew): Within one agent's round, the actions chosen are performed immediately and noone else can do anything while it is still his round.

It is incompatible with the concept of real-time.

 

[Volourn]

X: First off, you show once again when it comes to NWN you don't know waht youa re talking about. Stoneskin has a turn per level duration. That's a pretty damn good duration for a defensive spell so you should ahve no problem casting it before battle. Heck, even on PW servers that actually limit how often you rest, you should be able to cast stoneskin as soon as you rest and have it last the entire day unless it's chopped away. Heck, if ther game is really a hackfest, that's all the more reason to "waste spell slots" on spells like stoneskin. On top of that, with a half decent concentration or the defesnive casting ability unless critters are doing 50+ damage you should always pass your checks therefore not having to worry about your spells being ruined. And, targets cannot "dodge" missle attacks unless you miss their ac. Have you ever seen an archer (espicially one that is a rogue or has a composite bow) in NWN shoot arrows at melee targets? R00fles! i guarantee the meleer doesn't last long. Sure, enemies can get into melee rather quick; but guess what the same is true in a tb game like TOEE. In either game I could get maybe 1 or 2 rounds off before they enter melee so what's the real problem here? Or ebteter yet, let's take the OC as ane xample, if you want to have ana rcher type character you should take a melee type like that barbarian as your NPC. You can hide ebhind him and fire away to your hearts'c ontents. Sorry, missile weapons and spellcasting isn't perfect in NWN (or the IE games); but they surely shouldn't be desribed as 'gimped'. That's ludicrous.

 

[Jed]

First off, I don't even know what the fuck "R00fles!" means. Really, I don't. Secondly, Stoneskin doesn't really give you all that much protection, and if you're getting turn per level, that means that even a level 10 wiz only gets 60 seconds. Thirdly, even if you are hiding behind a melee NPC, BioWare games always throw so many fucking enemies at you at a time (to compensate for the RT fudging), that if you're getting swarmed by kobolds, a barb can only hack so many before they're all over you.

How many fucking arrows does it take to take down a Balor, anyway?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Obviously none of these fools have ever played Gunbound and Massive Assault Network. These games are turn-based, and they've got a pretty large player base. Gunbound (www.gunbound.net) is free, though MAN has a trial period and costs about 6.95 a month, they're both incredibly fun to play and the timer per turns isn't at all annoying. The excuse that someone will always be 'dissatisfied' with the timer is ambiguous at best. I don't think most people will even bring that up as an issue because decisions can be made very quickly in a turn based game. After all, if people are capable of playing real time games there's no reason why they would take a terribly long time to make decisions in a much more forgiving turn-based game.

 

[Volourn]

1. R00fles? good. Neither do I. Saw it on the 'net once, soudned funny, so I use it. So, meh.

2. Stoneskin stops the first 10 points of damage. That's a lot of protection, and let's not mention greater stoneksin or premonition (or ghostly visage, etc. etc.). It lasts longe nough and with extended it's even longer.

3. Nonsense. First off,d efine 'swarm'. Secondly, you fear kobolds all of assudden? LOL A barbarian can kill every single last kobold 9if theya re of the normal variety) with exactly one swing of his weapon in most cases. Or in the case of basic NWN, two at a time. Between him and you they should not last long. Heck, if youa re a mage, one fireball would take of the probem easy. And, whoc ares if you do soem damage to the barabarian if you misfire as he can take it; the kobolds can't.

4. A balor? LOL Is that your example of why arrows are weak in Rt games? LOL How manya rrows do you think is needed to kill the balor in TOEE? A lot as well. How many arrows do yout hink you'll get off before the balor reaches you? Not much. Geez... What a very poor example. Balors simply aren't meant to be taken down with arrows. If that's your best exuses for why magic and missles are 'gimped' ye are nuts.

 

[Jed]

NWN isn't a party-based game. ToEE is.

 

[Volourn]

PC + NPC = Party.

PC = 2 NPCS = Party.

Bunch of PCs = Party.


Deal.

Not to mentiion, NWN is balanced tfor less then the "typical" numbe rof party members so that isn't an exuse either. Besides, NWN is suppsoed to be easy right yet here are complaining how "hard' it is being ana rcher or mage. R00fles!