Company News Biowarian Profile: Brenon Holmes

[Sol Invictus]

Honestly, I can see where he's coming from. As much as I love ye goode olde turn-based games, plenty of them didn't have anything for the non-magic-users to do except attack or defend. And defending was less than usless. Might as well just keep the fighters on attack, changing their targets from time to time.

Yes, this especially holds true with Arcanum. There wasn't much you could do as a fighter or a gunman besides wail on things ceaselessly and without mercy. It was the main reason I hated Arcanum. They should just as well done away with the whole turn-based mode in Arcanum and gone for straightforward real time combat.

However, there is this very old turn-based game called Master of Magic, which you may or not have played, that included quite a few tactical options for melee characters, allowing them to use skills like 'stun' and 'trap'.

If you're not going to give me turn-based combat with meaningful, interesting, and fun strategic choices, might as well give me real-time combat so I can get the darn fights over with and get back to the rest of the game. Of course, I'd prefer a game that lets me manipulate the environment to my advantage, attempt to make called shots against the enemy, protect my weaker characters with my tanks, etc., but designers just don't seem up to that these days.

I don't agree. Most of the recent turn-based games have included some of the most advanced tactical options. Case in point: ToEE, Silent Storm, Massive Assault, Age of Wonders 1 and 2.

In Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic (better than the original), which I'm currently playing, your heroes are given the choice to pick a new skill or perk at every advancing level, allowing to be much more capable in the tactical battlefield than any of the grunts. The grunts themselves are nothing to laugh about, all of them have tactical advantages (such as resistance to fire, cold attacks, immunity to stun, and so forth) and some of them have secondary abilities which allow them to do something other than wailing ceaselessly at the enemy, like a stunning attack, cleave attack, or first charge.

What's more, is that the game has a much larger strategic aspect to it. You're sometimes drawn between recruiting 2 druids with the ability to ensnare enemies and control animals, or a group of 4 swordsmen which cost about the same amount of gold to produce as the 2 druids but don't have their special abilities.

You have a point, though. It's preferrable to have real time combat over turn-based combat if there aren't any tactical options available. If the lack of tactical options is the case, the game will suck no matter what mode it's in regardless of its form of combat. Dungeon Siege is a good example of a bad game with limited tactical abilities.

 

[Sol Invictus]

One last point: mages are absolutely no fun to play in real time games. There's too much button mashing and scrolling around involved.

In turn based games, mages can be a lot more fun to use because both mages and fighters are offered the same variety of attack capabilities. I intensely dislike turn based games that only offer a single form of attack (or defense) to fighters. What's the point of making them turn based if all they're going to do is attack normally?

 

[Jed]

PC + NPC = Party.

PC = 2 NPCS = Party.

Bunch of PCs = Party.


Deal.

Not to mentiion, NWN is balanced tfor less then the "typical" numbe rof party members so that isn't an exuse either. Besides, NWN is suppsoed to be easy right yet here are complaining how "hard' it is being ana rcher or mage. R00fles!

Whatever. D&D is supposed to be about the 4-player (at least) party: Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, & Cleric. That is the absolute basic party to cover all the bases of whatever you might encounter in a D&D campaign. Less than that equals fudging and gimping.

 

[taks]

Very well. Allow me to elucidate on some of the features I associate to sequence in the context of turn-based combat (whew): Within one agent's round, the actions chosen are performed immediately and noone else can do anything while it is still his round.

It is incompatible with the concept of real-time.

i realize that and wasn't arguing against it... the seemless flow i spoke of relates turns to everyone at once. a better method of doing TB, IMO, simply because the concept of the world dropping everything while you get your move, then the next guy gets his, etc., ruins my suspension of disbelief in a way...

the TB you're referring to, is a one to one implementation of pnp rules. but i was only arguing that pnp rules exist the way they do simply because it is nearly impossible to do it any other way (given the framework of the ruleset).

taks

 

[taks]

First off, I don't even know what the fuck "R00fles!" means. Really, I don't.

me neither. someone care to expand?

Secondly, Stoneskin doesn't really give you all that much protection, and if you're getting turn per level, that means that even a level 10 wiz only gets 60 seconds.

you're confusing turns with rounds. a round is 6 seconds, a turn is 10 rounds. so 10 turns is 100 rounds or 600 seconds... 5 minutes. i think the 3E version is nerfed, too...

Thirdly, even if you are hiding behind a melee NPC, BioWare games always throw so many fucking enemies at you at a time (to compensate for the RT fudging), that if you're getting swarmed by kobolds, a barb can only hack so many before they're all over you.

true to that... that's the big problem with RT (just to caveat that, i have problems with both RT and TB...)

How many fucking arrows does it take to take down a Balor, anyway?

if the BG1 system and AI were used, probably not many.

taks

 

[taks]

One last point: mages are absolutely no fun to play in real time games. There's too much button mashing and scrolling around involved.

another one of my gripes with RT... i usually role play mages of some sort.

taks

 

[Jed]

Ranged combat in a CRPG without called shots is fairly pointless anyway...

 

[Araanor]

the TB you're referring to, is a one to one implementation of pnp rules. but i was only arguing that pnp rules exist the way they do simply because it is nearly impossible to do it any other way (given the framework of the ruleset).

It is what TB has come to stand for in computer games (regardless of marketing attempts to redefine reality). If you diverge from this definition you'll diverge from this discussion.

 

[Volourn]

X: Hhahahahahahahaha..... You haven't played NWN then as it has called shots.

Another thing about the kobold thing, well, that's pretty much what would happen in TOEE at times. All the bugbears would charge the mage and there'd be nothing the fighters could do about it (well, not true, as the bugbears did it retardly in most cases and staggered their charge so i cna kill them one a a time with AOO:p)

It makes esne that the barbarian can cut off all enemies.

I'm sorry Taks, in NWN's 6 second rounds - I very rarely find my elf bumbling to cast spells. Quick slots are awesome. Only in those rare instances where i have to use the radial menu (rare b/c all of my big offensive spells are usually on the quick slots) so I'm usually fine with casting spells.

 

[taks]

perhaps... i suppose it depends on what your ranged weapons were capable of.

the drawback of the iso view games is the limited portal which leads to the RT problem of being swamped immediately if you're using ranged attacks. big, big problem in NWN when you don't have enough front line to hold off a hoard. a real ranged expert would be a sniper hanging out in the trees or behind a mound off to the side of the main battle. a called shot capability makes sense with this concept (as opposed to a worthless bowman standing 10 feet from his enemies incapable of hitting ANYTHING because he doesn't have the precise shot feat yet...)

taks

 

[Jed]

X: Hhahahahahahahaha..... You haven't played NWN then as it has called shots.

Since when? Or only on your computer?

 

[taks]

It is what TB has come to stand for in computer games (regardless of marketing attempts to redefine reality). If you diverge from this definition you'll diverge from this discussion.

actually, i'm not really diverging. remember that the original quote stated "RT with enough features" (or something to that affect). this is more along the lines of where i was going... i.e. another possibility. what i'm speaking of is more like RT w/ pause but different than they've imiplemented it in the past...

taks

 

[taks]

I'm sorry Taks, in NWN's 6 second rounds - I very rarely find my elf bumbling to cast spells. Quick slots are awesome. Only in those rare instances where i have to use the radial menu (rare b/c all of my big offensive spells are usually on the quick slots) so I'm usually fine with casting spells.

i was actually thinking more along the lines of BG games... just too much to control.
taks

 

[Volourn]

Taks: True.

X: Since NWN was released, and on every single computer. Really, why argue about soemthing that it is apparantly youa re ignornat about? It be like me seriously discussing Geneforge when i haven't played it. LOL

edit: Yeah, it be much harder with the IE games cause of controlling multipel characters but that's where p[ausing comes into play. In comaprision, I rarely pause in NWN even when playing SP 'cause I am only controlling 1 chaarcetr anyways. In Bg I did all the time. I mean if you didn't then I could see how you'd find casting being impossible.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

First off, I don't even know what the fuck "R00fles!" means.

Beats me, sounds like someone was eating waffles while rolling on the floor laughing.

 

[taks]

btw, the more i think about what i've been saying for my TB stuff, the more like phase-based combat it sounds. i've never played any so i can't offer any real critique. i can't say i've heard a lot of good, however.

yes, vol. i usually play NWN RT, too... well, gotta pause everyonceinawhile but not much...

taks

 

[triCritical]

Tri, go play the game. Otherwise you are just being ignorant in how NWN combat actually works. Not surprising though.

What? Are you intentionally being ambiguous?

An AoO is a realization of TB. When a person walks in front of you in TB, there is the suspension of disbelief that he is actually not frozen, SO YOU CAN WACK HIM!!! However, in RT, you're never frozen, so if someone walks in front of you just click WACK!!!!! There is no friggin need for interrupts in RT. If you would actually use your friggin brain for once you would realize it.

 

[Volourn]

Are you pretending to be stupid? Or just ignornant? If you ahven't noticed, NWN very much has AOOs, and for the most aprt it does it pretty good. The only negative is that you are forced to take them. Still, you have to be crack if you think NWN doesn't have AOO.

 

[triCritical]

Are you pretending to be stupid? Or just ignornant? If you ahven't noticed, NWN very much has AOOs, and for the most aprt it does it pretty good. The only negative is that you are forced to take them. Still, you have to be crack if you think NWN doesn't have AOO.

No Shit Volourn, GAWD you are dense sometimes. Scratch that all the time. I am saying there is no friggin need for AoO's in NWN, because its a RT game and AoO are a manifistation of mapping a temporal game to TB with rounds.

THINK!!!!

 

[Volourn]

You think. They are "needed" in a RT game like NWN as much as they are in a TB one. Only someone who is ignronat or at least pretending to would think otherwise. And, AOO's not "manifistation" (no word for Tri) of mapping a "temporal" (another new word for tri, two in a row woo hoo) game to Tb inr ounds; but a "manifistation" of mapping a temporal game with D&D rules.

AOO against castings.

A00 against creatures that run past an enemy.

AOO against an enemy when enteirng an occupied space.


These are all parts of the D&D combat rules so it would amke sense to at least try to have them in a D&D game and they work pretty damn good in NWN at that.

Then again, you don't play NWN 'cause if you did you'd know that.

Once again, stop posting ignorant comments about a agme you know very little about, Mr. Ignoramus. :D

 

[Jed]

Because BioWare got the AoO so right...

ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY

Threatened Area
A character threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a character's action. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area may provoke an attack of opportunity from a character. A small or medium sized character normally has a 5-foot threat radius. "Reach weapons" and "natural reach" can change the threatened area.

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Moving
If a character moves through (not simply into) or out of a threatened area, a character usually provokes an attack of opportunity.
If all a character does during that character's turn is make a normal move or a double move (not a run), the space that the character started out in is not considered threatened.
If a character's entire move for the round is 5 feet the 5 foot move does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Taking an Action
A character taking some kinds actions provokes attacks of opportunity, as described in the rules for each action type.

Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and a character can only make one per round. The character does not have to make an attack of opportunity if the character doesn't want to. The character makes the attack of opportunity at the character's normal base attack bonus.

...and without including the Flatfooted condition, even. Also doesn't make a lot of sense without Sequence, does it?

RULE 0!RULE 0!RULE 0!RULE 0!RULE 0!RULE 0!AND?AND?AND?AND?AND?AND?AND?

And by the Volourn, when I said "called shot," I wasn't referring to the feat, I meant the game mechanic as exlempfied in Fallout or Aracanum or Silent Storm or other better games...

 

[MrBrown]

I think what Brenon means by "That said, with sufficient auto-pausing features... TB can be almost indistinguishable from RT" is that with a good RT with pause and auto-pause features, the player can have as much control over all the characters in a party as he can in a TB game. Personally I think the major difference is in movement (and thus range) related rules. I can't really think up a system to have as much control of movement in a party-based RT game as you can have in a TB game.


A few notes on stuff in this thread:

- 3E doesn't use 'turns' as a measure of time anymore (only in the sense of 'which combatant's turn it is'). I think IWD2 and NWN still had it, though, for whatever reason.

- Not like ToEE got AoO's right either...

 

[Sol Invictus]

I agree with your exegesis on the subject of turn based with pause and wholly concur by adding that with sufficient implementation of interactive options, as well as queues during the pause sequence, a real time with pause-based game can be made less dull and much more immersive than those games currently available. Though, I would be hard pressed to find a real time with pause game with as many tactical options as a true turn-based game that allows you to control many units at once without resorting to the typical 'Gosu' mode of play, with or without a pause mode.

Simply put, it's a lot easier to manage many units in turn-based mode than it would be in any kind of real time with pause game, due to action point limits and the 'end turn' button.

- Not like ToEE got AoO's right either...

That was bug-related.

 

[MrBrown]

- Not like ToEE got AoO's right either...

That was bug-related.

I doubt they all were.

- No AoO from drinking potions. This is the one most likely to be a bug.
- I don't get to choose whether to do an AoO or not. Probably not a bug, but a really minor thing anyways.
- I haven't tested this one fully yet, but when you move away from a threatened area you always get an AoO. In PnP when you do nothing else but use a normal move within a round, moving from the square start at doesn't attract an AoO. This is probably an engine limitation.
- AoOs from moving in and to threatened areas don't seem to work correctly. Most of the time I don't get AoOs when I have a reach weapon and the enemy moves from 10 feet to 5 feet from me (to attack me with a non-reach weapon). While this might itself be a bug, it seems to me rather that it's caused by two things:
-> Threatened areas are circles instead of squares. I haven't tested this throughly yet, mainly because I can't tell the enemies what to do... Seems to be true though, the graphics certainly suggest it.
-> No grid, rather distance and occupied space is measured from the creature graphics and location.
- The above two things might also make it possible for creatures to move away from a flanking position without attracting an AoO (which is not possible in PnP, at least without Tumbling), but since enemies rarely do this I haven't managed to test it.


These are just the ones I've encountered myself... any other conclusions?

 

[Volourn]

X: 1. NWN's AOOs pretty much cover most of that. And, oh, once again, you error. NWN does include the flat footed condition. Geez..

2. As for called shot, well, there you go, it's in the game but now you "meant" the FO kind. r00fles! Very convienent for you. Still doesn't change thew fact that NWN has called shots.

3. Never said NWN's AOO are perfect. Then again, D&D's AOO are perfect. However, NWN;s AOO work well for the most even in a "pseudo ET' environment.