Company News Bizarre rumours: Troika shutting down?

[Killzig]

Hmm. Let's face it, good developers you can count on one hand. Good RPG developers... well, that's about as likely as finding a turtle that runs as fast as a cheetah. Right now, there's only one company I can honestly say that when I hear about a game they're developing I'm interested in and that's Pandemic. Bioware looks to be taking a step backwards with RPGs with Jade Empire just streamlining the whole RPG genre into an adventure game with character sheets and Bethsoft might as well be making FedEx TEH RPG. So many of us liked Troika because we had some hope for them to bring new ideas to the table. I don't think any of us were particularly jazzed about ToEE, but we enjoyed the combat system and the graphics. Bloodlines left all of us pretty nonplussed and I don't think any of us expected it to do well. Hell, I think all of us were and still are more intrigued about that post apoc artwork that sprung up not too long ago.

Fact is Troika carved itself into a niche that was a little too deep and they made a mistake with their last two projects as neither of them really appealed to their core audience. Maybe they thought the two projects would have mass appeal and still satisfy that audience but as they say ... you can't please everyone.

 

[Jed]

I know it's really easy for you to come to those conclusions by looking at what happened after the fact, but I have to emphasize that you really cannot know the circumstances under which things happened, and the reasons behind them.

This has never deterred Rexy-poo before, and I doubt it ever will.

 

[undead dolphin hacker]

So who buys CRPGs in the 21st C. ? The same idiots who keep Blizzard in business. And they are definately not going to buying the high brow product Troika delivers.

I've bought every Troika game (which I regret).

I've bought every Blizzard game (which I don't).

One company just patched one of its seven-year-old games.

One company has yet to release a significant patch for any of its games.

Troika has never delivered a "high brow product." Get your fucking head out of your pompous little ass. Just because you have to think really hard not to hate the game doesn't mean it's "high brow."

Fuckwits like you make me sick. Go the fuck away, you salad-tossing queef.

 

[undead dolphin hacker]

I have but one response: If they had such pride in their work, their games wouldn't be so fucking shitty.

Ding ding ding ding ding.

 

[dagobach]

I have but one response: If they had such pride in their work, their games wouldn't be so fucking shitty.

wow you know, when you put it in such clear perspective like that; black and white right on the page . . . you know you must be right. Why would people put in 120 hour work weeks, sacrifice their lives and put thier family at financial risk in order to form a company, (something thats mind numbingly easy and risk free to do) if their goal was simply to shit out a mediocre product that will just pay the bills, not caring about thier reputaion or the obscene percentage of thier lives they put into making said product.

I'm sure you have lots of pride in being an internet poster, becuase your posts always turn out like shiny, polished, masterpieces of wisdom.

 

[Sol Invictus]

As a customer I am completely appalled by Troika's complete lack of professionalism when it comes to the development and releasing of complete, playable (in a relatively bug-free state) titles, and they've proven themselves to be extraordinarily poor at following up on their responsibilities.

Like Undead Dolphin Hacker, I have purchased each and every single one of Blizzard's games (exception: World of Warcraft) and every single one of Valve's and Bioware's titles, as well. They've managed to release relatively balanced and bug-free titles (Exception: NWN, early on - but they fixed it) that are thoroughly playable from day one, until today. They've never made excuses to their customers or argued their publishers over the development and release of patches, and as UDH pointed out, Blizzard even released a patch for Starcraft today that not only fixed bugs, but also added a fine list of new features. People didn't even have to ask for it.

Do you know what's really fucked? Troika didn't even develop the 3rd patch for TOEE - the one that makes TOEE compatible with WindowsXP. Atari had to do it.

When you say that Troika puts in 120 hour work weeks, sacrifice their lives and put their family at financial risk, et al, and claim that they have pride in the work they do, no matter how poorly it pans out in the end, you insult everybody who works at companies like Valve, Blizzard, Bioware, ArenaNet (who work quite hard on Guild Wars, a game that's more playable in its Alpha state than any of Troika's products in their release state) and so many other companies.

I never said anything to insult the individuals working at Troika, whom I have stated in the past and will state again, are creative, talented individuals, but their existence as a company is a flawed and mismanaged one. When a company does a poor job at things, it can only expect to land itself in the same position as Troika.

I never stated that Troika's goal was to deliver mediocre products, but intent seldom determines the outcome where aptitude and management are concerned. The bottom line is that Troika has delivered mediocre products: the sign of ineptitude or mismanagement. Take your pick. Now they are paying for it.

There will be no free rides for Troika.

 

[dagobach]

Valve, Blizzard, Bioware . . . they all have tons of cash. I believe you would see the same kind of service and polish in the products of any small indie studio out there if they had the kind of funding that these huge studios have. They got to be as big as they are by putting out games that appeal to the wider audience. When was the last codex-approved "hardcore crpg" put out by any of these 3 studios? When was the last hardcore crpg put out by anyone that had tons of polish and years of support after release? I understand where you are coming from with your comparisons, but it's kind of like complaining that mom & pops restaurant dosen't have the same service as mc donalds mega corporation. It obviously isn't going to be comparable, becuase one simply cannot have the resources without making hit games - which I guess means giving up making the style of crpgs that Troika, Black Isle, etc. used to make.

 

[Sol Invictus]

The cash didn't materialize out of thin air. They worked for it, as people on the Codex so often seem to forget. Did you think that Bioware was filthy rich when it was developing Baldur's Gate, or even Baldur's Gate 2? Let me assure you that it was not. They almost went under, while developing Neverwinter Nights, because not only did they not get paid for the international sales of their previous games, they were afraid that Interplay would do the same with Neverwinter Nights, and it would have probably screwed up the release just like it screwed up IWD2's release.

Let me remind you that Bioware was started by a couple of doctors who previously only worked on medical software. They were new at the business, and had little to no experience in game development. Their first title was a very unknown Shattered Steel, in 1996, and they moved on from there to developing lesser known and rather unanticipated titles like MDK2, trailing in the footsteps of a then much more well known developer, Shiny Entertainment.

Bioware's first foray into the big leagues was Baldur's Gate, and it was a smashing success, with credit to Bioware's diligence and aptitude. They made themselves who and what they are today and they have only themselves to thank for their success.

Troika on the other hand was created by 3 very well known designers, with experience in game development and the game industry of over 10 years, even at the time in contrast to Dr. Ray Muzyka's little to no experience. Troika knew what it was getting itself into.

Needless to say, experience doesn't always equal success.

If you think Troika is a small indie development studio, you are deluded. How would a small indie development studio get 'go' to develop its own IP, Arcanum? Let me remind you that Troika was an unproven developer at the time, inspite of Leon and Tim's reputation as the developers of Fallout. How would a small development studio get the rights to two of the largest fantasy licenses, D&D and Vampire: The Masquerade?

No, Troika was not a small indie development studio.

 

[Sheriff05]

Valve, Blizzard, Bioware . . . they all have tons of cash. I believe you would see the same kind of service and polish in the products of any small indie studio out there if they had the kind of funding that these huge studios have. They got to be as big as they are by putting out games that appeal to the wider audience. When was the last codex-approved "hardcore crpg" put out by any of these 3 studios? When was the last hardcore crpg put out by anyone that had tons of polish and years of support after release? I understand where you are coming from with your comparisons, but it's kind of like complaining that mom & pops restaurant dosen't have the same service as mc donalds mega corporation. It obviously isn't going to be comparable, becuase one simply cannot have the resources without making hit games - which I guess means giving up making the style of crpgs that Troika, Black Isle, etc. used to make.

This is so obvious, It's mind boggling to see how half of the geniuses here just don't seem to "get it"..and they sure don't, so thanks for spelling it out.

While I understand the disappointment and even hostility toward Troika over some of the issues with their games, I don't get the resentment when they are essentially the only maverick US studio that gives a enough of a shit to TRY to make games for people like my fellow codexers.

 

[dagobach]

yes, they are a small indie studio. At their height, with two teams - they had 40-something employees, and they lived from contract to contract in terms of money from the very beginning. That is the defiinition of a small independant studio.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Read my edit, dagobach. They were not a small indie development studio.

A small indie development studio does not consist of 40 employees. Reflexive for instance is by the very definition a small indie development studio. Did you know that Reflexive used to have a small fucking apartment as a game development studio with only 4 employees?

It grew to 10, but it is still, by definition, a small indie development studio.

40 does not fucking cut it.

 

[Sheriff05]

No, they were not a small indie development studio.

Yes they were, (are) look at size of the staff, look at the company, They haven't had more than 20 people work on any single game they released yet. they aquired the licenses you mention strictly because of the clout they got from the reputation of Fallout.
Say what you want about Troika but to say they aren't a small indie studio when compared to Bioware ( a company with a 50 man in house QA team! ) , Valve and Blizzard is fucking delusional Rex. They gotten some shitty breaks over the years, they havent had a hit even remotely close to the level of BG , Diablo of HL don't even try to compare it.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yes they were, (are) look at size of the staff, look at the company, They haven;t had more than 20 people work on any sinlge game they released yet.

And yet they had 40, maybe 50 employees working for them. If they had only 20 people working for them at any given time, then one could consider them to be a small indy company. Then again, even when a small companies handles millions of dollars in licensing fees, wages and development costs, it's really hard to argue that they are small, much less independent.

they aquired the licenses you mention strictly because of the clout they got from the reputation of Fallout.[/quote]
That is by definition a free ride.

Say what you want about Troika but to say they aren't a small indie studio when compared to Bioware ( a company with a 50 man in house QA team! )

It didn't always have a 50 man in-house QA team. Not when they were developing Shattered Steel, MDK2, Baldur's Gate, or EVEN Baldur's Gate 2. They were still quite small then, but they managed their finances and played their cards right. Most importantly, they weren't mismanaged.

, Valve and Blizzard is fucking delusional Rex. They gotten some shitty breaks over the years, they havent had a hit even remotely close to the level of BG , Diablo of HL don't even try to compare it.

Shitty breaks brought on by their own ineptitude or mismanagement (my choice). Take your pick. As others have stated, Troika could have settled itself a pretty little niche developing modules for D&D if they had managed to pull TOEE off, but as history will show, they fucked up, and they fucked up big time.

Fuck, that was one of my great wishes for the company. I had my hopes riding on it, because it would have meant spawning a new line of games similar to the success of the Baldur's Gate line.

Needless to say, they fucked up.

 

[Sheriff05]

And yet they had 40, maybe 50 employees working for them. If they had only 20 people working for them at any given time, then one could consider them to be a small indy company. Then again, even when a small companies handles millions of dollars in licensing fees, wages and development costs, it's really hard to argue that they are small, much less independent.

For arguments sake I'd like to see a source on the claim they had as many as 40 or 50 employees, as I have been led to understand that's never been the case and is nothing more than internet exageration.

Any company that lives project to project is by definition an indie company
for instance IF they had signed a mullti game deal with Activision, where Activision was bankrolling them for long periods of time, then I would say they weren't reallly indie
but since every project has been a one shot, they are about as indie as it gets.

they aquired the licenses you mention strictly because of the clout they got from the reputation of Fallout .

That is by definition a free ride.

Fair enough, you got to earn those perks

It didn't always have a 50 man in-house QA team. Not when they were developing Shattered Steel, MDK2, Baldur's Gate, or EVEN Baldur's Gate 2. They were still quite small then, but they managed their finances and played their cards right. Most importantly, they weren't mismanaged.

I don't disagree, obviously there are some management problems at Troika

Shitty breaks brought on by their own ineptitude or mismanagement (my choice). Take your pick. As others have stated, Troika could have settled itself a pretty little niche developing modules for D&D if they had managed to pull TOEE off, but as history will show, they fucked up, and they fucked up big time.

I guess that really depends on HOW much you like game now, doesn't it?
Personally I'll take a bug ridden REAL attempt at the D&D ruleset anyday over the rest of schlock out there.

Fuck, that was one of my great wishes for the company. I had my hopes riding on it, because it would have meant spawning a new line of games similar to the success of the Baldur's Gate line.

Me Too.

 

[Avin]

troika's problem was toee. they abandoned the game. they could have made a terrific d&d crpg, but something went wrong in the middle of the way.

 

[dojoteef]

dagobach, I'd like to respond to your initial post in the thread. I know it's a bit late, but I guess the thread grew quickly while I was away.

Since you are an "insider looking out" of the games industry, you should obviously see the signs of mismanagement on Troika's part. For example, initially concieving to put 50 spells into ToEE but instead ending up putting 250. The industry lingo for that is "feature creep". The fact that they did this in one area more than likely means they did it in others as well. It is a hallmark of mismanagement.

I completely understand about assest/code freeze, but if anything Troika should have learned from ToEE when working on Bloodlines. They should have instituted their own freeze before each milestone to ensure they pass on a product that is as stable as they could get it to be. That's what it means to have the producers sign off on it before sending it to the publisher. Sure the publisher gets the final word about what gets released to the public, but the producers get the final word on what gets released to the publisher. If you check out the link I mentioned earlier about bug fixing, it mentions the best way to go about fixing bugs, DO IT EARLY, i.e. before sending the milestone to the publisher.

If you wait until after you have reached your milestone to concentrate on bug fixing, you'll end up running into more problems. When a new bug is introduced, it can be difficult to tell if it was part of an existing bug or not. Also when working with buggy software, it tends to be more difficult to test out your new features, because it's hard to tell if the feature is working properly or not, due to the bugs.

So instead of Troika doing things such as feature creep, they should instead assess their current speed of development, and estimate whether or not they can keep on track. Then cut features as needed before it's too late.

It's fairly obvious from playing Bloodlines, that the last hub was rushed. Plain and simple. Troika must have made poor estimates in the beginning of development, and that happens. Though had Troika been smart, they would have cut their losses and removed the hub. That would more than likely have given them plenty of time to ensure the rest of the hubs were up to snuf. Then they could have added two or three quests to the existing hubs that would lead up to the cab ride and the end game. It's this idea that they have to include everything they first concieved AND add new content that really puts Troika in the crapper.

The release of Bloodlines left the last two hubs in more or less an alpha state. I can understand maybe messing up once; that was ToEE. If you can't learn from those mistakes and try to take a more conservative approach to ensure you release a proper product, then there is definitely mismanagement.

I'm not saying that Troika are bad people, developers, whatever. I personally loved Arcanum and had high hope for Bloodlines. In fact I enjoyed the playable sections of Bloodlines. What I am saying is that they are mismanaged. If they want to stay in this business it would probably be wise for them to take on an industry veteran studio manager with a proven history at whatever cost. If they rumor turns out to be false (and I hope it does), they won't be able to last doing the same things they did before.

 

[Jinxed]

Just for the record:

Blizzard releases new patches for Starcraft all the time, nothing strange, because it's a multi million dollar game, so many people are still playing it you would be surprised. What's funny is that new bugs are still being reported! After 7 years.

I've got all the Troika games, I don't regret it one bit. That's why I run a Troika Fansite, that's why all their games were countless hours of fun while other games got shut down after 30 minutes or so.

 

[Avin]

And several classic CRPGs were bugged and never fixed.

 

[Briosafreak]

Avin is right, i don`t see many people here attacking Fergus because of the Fallout2 demise.

In the end i guess Dagobach is entirely right, although i still think ToEE had way too many problems to be just because of the size of the company and other related issues, they did really screw up that one, particularly on the design field. They won`t hear much absolution from me on that one, but everything else Dagobach says makes sense.

Well maybe things get beeter until February, i hope so, not only because i like them, but mainly since a Bioware, Bethesda and Piranha Bites only CRPG stage is too poor.

 

[dojoteef]

Briosafreak, did you read what I wrote in response to dagobach's post? He doesn't have it entirely right. It is a mismanagement on Troika's part. If you don't learn from your previous mistakes, then you are doomed to failure, which is what happened to Troika; they didn't learn from their mistakes from working on ToEE, thus the screwed up on Bloodlines.

 

[EvoG]

Right now, there's only one company I can honestly say that when I hear about a game they're developing I'm interested in and that's Pandemic.

Dear god Andy....PANDEMIC??? Mercenaries is a pile of shit ( though the rare chance you get an M2 APC which rocks )...Battlefront COULD'VE been great if the net code didn't suck. Now we have the rather bland looking Destroy All Humans, though I must confess to wanting to play it as well, their track record has left me less interested. Apparently the only thing they got right was Full Spec Warrior and you dont really play that game, you just tell d00ds where to go and they shoot all the bad guys in a lovely linear romp *cough*.

:D

 

[Briosafreak]

I do give credit to your arguments dojoteef but i believe that the main reason that made Troika be a troublesome dev company is the change of context in the CRPG area, with consoles taking over and adapting just a bit to pick the PC crowd, while Troika remained a classic CRPG company. Now regarding your views on Vampire i can`t say they are right or wrong, since i haven`t bought the game, it`s on my to do list for later when i have more time to play games. But honestly what i`ve seen from the game playing out it really didn`t sound bad, except for the troubles that came with the SOURCE engine.


They are an indie company in a world of big corporate players like Bioware, either there was some adaptation to this context like Bethesda successfully did, or a few troubles would arise anyway. And i do tend to blame the publishers about the games released more than the dev companies anyway, but that`s regardless of the company really, so i might be giving Troika some space they don`t deserve, but that´s the way i see things, i know it´s prejudice but that`s the point i got after a few years watching theses things.

And Killzig Tom French works at Pandemic, did you know that?

 

[Killzig]

Right now, there's only one company I can honestly say that when I hear about a game they're developing I'm interested in and that's Pandemic.

Dear god Andy....PANDEMIC??? Mercenaries is a pile of shit ( though the rare chance you get an M2 APC which rocks )...Battlefront COULD'VE been great if the net code didn't suck. Now we have the rather bland looking Destroy All Humans, though I must confess to wanting to play it as well, their track record has left me less interested. Apparently the only thing they got right was Full Spec Warrior and you dont really play that game, you just tell d00ds where to go and they shoot all the bad guys in a lovely linear romp *cough*.

:D

Story's linear but I thought the gameplay was pretty fuckin rad. Sandbox mode still has this game on heavy rotation on my box. In fact. I just had to buy a new copy because my disc was so abused. And I'm still enjoying Mercenaries d00d. Being a mohammed loving suicide car bomber is fun. Except I can dive out of the car that's going 70 mph and escape unscathed. ROOFLES. Helicopters are funz0r too. Destroy all Humans looks to be like another entry into the silly excuse to fuck shit up category. Works for me. Seems like Pandemic is lining the coffirs up pretty well, hopefully they start broadening their scope a bit and give us something a little deeper to play? mmm yeah? and what the fuck, you still haven't called me bitch!!! What?! Did your animation queue for Pokemon Worlds Online just triple or something? PIKA CHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[Sol Invictus]

Dear god Andy....PANDEMIC??? Mercenaries is a pile of shit ( though the rare chance you get an M2 APC which rocks )...Battlefront COULD'VE been great if the net code didn't suck. Now we have the rather bland looking Destroy All Humans, though I must confess to wanting to play it as well, their track record has left me less interested. Apparently the only thing they got right was Full Spec Warrior and you dont really play that game, you just tell d00ds where to go and they shoot all the bad guys in a lovely linear romp *cough*.

:D

Are you KIDDING? Mercenaries is the best pile of shit on the XBox right now. The gameplay is, as Killzig says, fucking rad. Pandemic really pulled a good game off with it so it's a pity that they didn't decide to port the game to the PC like they did with FSW, which I didn't like.

What I like most about Pandemic is that they are focused on creating GAMES. GAMES that don't pretend to be movies, or books, or anything -- but GAMES! Fucking shit up is a fun as hell genre unto itself.

 

[asa]

Troika has never delivered a "high brow product." Get your fucking head out of your pompous little ass. Just because you have to think really hard not to hate the game doesn't mean it's "high brow."

Fuckwits like you make me sick. Go the fuck away, you salad-tossing queef.

Spoken like a true Blizzard fan.

As far as I see it, the problem is not with Troika, but with the little sociopaths who now predominate the PC gaming scene. Look at Exitim. A classic example. And this is who you chose to edit your site? What did Troika ever do to him to get the kind of abuse he's heaped up? What did he ever produce in his fatuous little life? What a mean spirited little turd to be glorifying in the demise of a wonderful group of devs, to so insensitively dance on their grave.

I hang around for what people like Vault Dweller have to say, and a few others -- but how can you possibly reconcile "putting the role back in RPG" with a cunt like Exitim determining editorial policy? Oh wait, he's not even supposed to be expressing his moronic opinion:

Exitium - exitium@rpgplanet.com - Graphics design

Stick to the layout and leave the opinion to the adults.