Blood Bowl 3

[Harthwain]

Looks about the same as bb2? Could be worse.

I don't quite agree with that. Some stuff looks the same (passing, for example), but most of it looks like changes (even if only visual) for the sake of changes. I am going to wait for the actual PC gameplay to see how the UI ends up, but that video made me worried.

I don't like the giant circle thing in the middle of the screen for follow up yes/no. Seems like a weird design.

Well, like you said before; it's for the consoles.

 

[Galdred]

The biggest suprise is how they changed leveling up.

Picking a primary skill remained relatively the same. Randomly selecting a primary skill could be fun and can result in some skills seeing use. Considering you get a skill for half the price of selecting a skill, it could be worth it if your target "skill group" contains a lot of abilities you would consider useful. It's essentially risk versus reward at this point. Secondary skills got pricer though. Like, waaaay pricer - you need to have DOUBLE the amount of SPPs to pick it. So you could pick two primary skills for the price of a single secondary skill. And improving stats is not only ridiculously expensive, it's also RANDOM and increases your TV by a lot, so I find it highly questionable stash SPPs for that (especially at later levels).

All in all, it will still allow for the creation of unconventional builds (evenmoreso as you can now pick them), but going outside of primary skills will require knowing precisely what build you want and it will have to pay for itself. In fact, we might see the opposite happening: the game forming the rigid meta faster, because now there will be enumerable cost associated with leveling up "uncoventional" players. And people like to go for quick and easy solutions. For me personally it's a bit of a blow, because rolling for skills was very fun part of the game (probably THE best part of it) as you never knew what opportunities you'd have (other than the guaranteed choices, of course).

How does that make any sense? Getting block randomly is worth much less points in TV than choosing it?

I am totally fine with it costing more SPP, but inflating TV for it will just make league play more random than before... It is even worse for stats. Blood Bowl was a great game. They only needed to make small changes to make league play more balanced and less frustrating (I mean, losing most of your team, and playing with a roster of 11 which includes loner for the remaining games of your league is not super fun...).

I may be wrong, but I don't see how adding gambling to player progression is an improvement...

 

[Jaedar]

I may be wrong, but I don't see how adding gambling to player progression is an improvement...

I mean some teams already essentially have gambling: you're going to fire and replace goblins/skinks/etc that level up twice without getting stat/doubles.

But I mostly agree. Might be nice to be able to spend lots of spp to guarantee getting block on big guys? At the same time, seems like it would be really annoying to face someone who got lucky and has a bunch of +S dudes without even having the huge tv to go along with it.

 

[Harthwain]

You seem to be quoting a wrong person.

How does that make any sense? Getting block randomly is worth much less points in TV than choosing it?

You are risking 3 SPPs for a random skill pick. Yes, you could get Block for 3 SPPs, which is a steal. But you can get something else instead. Perhaps it'll be something that you can easily utilize (like Kick), but some skills would require of you to get very creative to make use out of them (Shadowing, for example). Or you could save your SPPs until you get enough to safely get Block for that player instead.

I am totally fine with it costing more SPP, but inflating TV for it will just make league play more random than before...

I am not so sure as you that this will doom a league play into randomness.

With players having finite time to be levelled up* I doubt we will see many perfect random combinations of skills due to firing any "bad" second random skill rolls. We could see a mix of hand-picked and random skills in some cases (or, more precisely, a random skill followed by a hand-picked skill. Unless someone goes for totally random skill-team for fun). But I don't have any problem seeing purely hand-picked skills dominating the game, because people value consistency more than anything else. The main point being - this will limit picked skills to their primary category.

It is even worse for stats.

Indeed, stats got butchered. On the flipside, random mutations could be a thing.

I may be wrong, but I don't see how adding gambling to player progression is an improvement...

You misunderstood me. I also liked the previous way of levelling up more. I am just trying to be objective in my assessment of the changes.

* There are seasons and re-drafting mechanics. I kind of like that idea, because it allows you to keep the certain players up to a point (you have to pay their current TV plus 20k for each previous season they played in. So you can't just keep re-drafting your Block Linemen for the same value with each next season. It's going to be even steeper for your actual star players). It also encourages you to build your team around a few key players as you operate within a certain budget range.

Below is the video explaining Seasons and re-drafting in detail:

Spoiler

 

[Galdred]

You seem to be quoting a wrong person.

How does that make any sense? Getting block randomly is worth much less points in TV than choosing it?

You are risking 3 SPPs for a random skill pick. Yes, you could get Block for 3 SPPs, which is a steal. But you can get something else instead. Perhaps it'll be something that you can easily utilize (like Kick), but some skills would require of you to get very creative to make use out of them (Shadowing, for example). Or you could save your SPPs until you get enough to safely get Block for that player instead.

I was not commenting your posts, but the choices of Games Workshop.
I was friend with the #1 player on the open ladder at the time of the standard edition I think (but there has been so many iteration that I may be wrong).
He told me he took MB, then guard, then fired his linemen because he had to optimize TV to avoid being against a higher TV team.
The optimal play is obviously to random pick on your linemen until they roll something bad, then fire them.
I don't see that not happening in open league.

Now, in smaller leagues with a reasonable number of matches, it will probably not be a problem, but still, I find it really bothersome than randomly picking block and choosing it result in 2 different TV scores, but that never really was the issue (the issue was more that you had yo play your 11 elves with 50% loners in your roster, but that didn't really prevent Enarion and Flix from winning OCC an insane number of times in a row with a depleted team of Wood Elves, but they were the exception rather than the rule).

 

[Harthwain]

I was friend with the #1 player on the open ladder at the time of the standard edition I think (but there has been so many iteration that I may be wrong).

I am not up to date on terminology. What "standard edition" means exactly and what version of Blood Bowl do you have in mind?

The optimal play is obviously to random pick on your linemen until they roll something bad, then fire them. I don't see that not happening in open league.

If you fire anyone who has "something bad", then it's a lottery concerning what you will have (you could end up with nothing), while your opponent will get Linemen with Block at the very least. Yes, it is +20k for each skill, but that's most likely worth it, because it turns a Human Lineman into a cheaper version of a Human Blitzer. Picking a random skill is still going to cost you +10k and how many of these random skills will be Blocks? Will you have enough random Block to offset the numerical disadvantage? Or will there be enough difference in TV to somehow turn it into an advantage for you (due to having less skills/less pricey skills)?

Consider the following:

1) You can only replace players when you have the money for it. Unless you are fine with playing with Loners (who can still steal the MVP, by the way. If I understand it correctly now dead players can't steal MVP and the MVP is decided on D16 roll).

2) With each season your players will cost 20k more to keep them around, so you can't realistically accumulate random skills by playing throughout multiple seasons. Although I guess you could get an advantage for a season or two by the virtue of random primary skills costing 10k less than chosen primary skills. Or by playing A LOT to accumulate enough players with desirable random skills in a single season.

 

[Galdred]

I was friend with the #1 player on the open ladder at the time of the standard edition I think (but there has been so many iteration that I may be wrong).

I am not up to date on terminology. What "standard edition" means exactly and what version of Blood Bowl do you have in mind?

The optimal play is obviously to random pick on your linemen until they roll something bad, then fire them. I don't see that not happening in open league.

If you fire anyone who has "something bad", then it's a lottery concerning what you will have (you could end up with nothing), while your opponent will get Linemen with Block at the very least. Yes, it is +20k for each skill, but that's most likely worth it, because it turns a Human Lineman into a cheaper version of a Human Blitzer. Picking a random skill is still going to cost you +10k and how many of these random skills will be Blocks? Will you have enough random Block to offset the numerical disadvantage? Or will there be enough difference in TV to somehow turn it into an advantage for you (due to having less skills/less pricey skills)?

Consider the following:

1) You can only replace players when you have the money for it. Unless you are fine with playing with Loners (who can still steal the MVP, by the way. If I understand it correctly now dead players can't steal MVP and the MVP is decided on D16 roll).

The human blitzer is still faster. The numerical disadvantage is only meaningful in leagues where each team had the same number of games played. In open leagues (even including private leagues with lots of seasons, like the Orca Cola Championship), it may well make things worse, because the only meaningful value is your TV efficiency.


You could say the same things for the previous version of BB, and keeping injured players, or players who had mediocre skills was already considered TV bloat (ie, any dwarf with more than 2 skills, any stunty without a double, except for the occasional sneaky git). I don't think adding randomness to TV values is going to make things better.

2) With each season your players will cost 20k more to keep them around, so you can't realistically accumulate random skills by playing throughout multiple seasons. Although I guess you could get an advantage for a season or two by the virtue of random primary skills costing 10k less than chosen primary skills. Or by playing A LOT to accumulate enough players with desirable random skills in a single season.

Are the 20k also reflected on the TV of the player? If so, it is a worse version of aging(before, you got a chance to get an injury that would decrease the value of your player without decreasing your TV. Now you get a straight TV bloat). Otherwise, it could be interesting, but it will make restarting your team even more frequent in longer leagues.

 

[Megrim]

Is there a comprehensive write-up somewhere, which details the new rules, and what has changed from the previous iteration?

 

[Harthwain]

The human blitzer is still faster.

Certainly, but you can't take more than a maximum of your Blitzers, so taking Block on a Lineman is next best thing to having an extra Blitzer (other than hiring an actual Blitzer Mercenary via petty cash/treasure).

The numerical disadvantage is only meaningful in leagues where each team had the same number of games played. In open leagues (even including private leagues with lots of seasons, like the Orca Cola Championship), it may well make things worse, because the only meaningful value is your TV efficiency.

Numerical disadvantage when it comes to skills is important, because if you have less players with Block or Wrestle than your opponent, then you are more likely to fail your blocks and he is more likely to succeed at them. Not only that - he will also have more chances of breaking your armor, potentially leading to stuns, KOs, injuries, etc. Leaving you even more outnumbered on the pitch.

You could say the same things for the previous version of BB, and keeping injured players, or players who had mediocre skills was already considered TV bloat (ie, any dwarf with more than 2 skills, any stunty without a double, except for the occasional sneaky git). I don't think adding randomness to TV values is going to make things better.

Lesser SPP cost encourages rolling for a skill. Lesser TV encourages keeping a player, even if the skill in question isn't top of the line. The worst general random skill for a Human Lineman - for example - would be Shadowing. Everything else is workable. Especially if you decide to go for a hand-picked primary skill next.

Are the 20k also reflected on the TV of the player? If so, it is a worse version of aging(before, you got a chance to get an injury that would decrease the value of your player without decreasing your TV. Now you get a straight TV bloat). Otherwise, it could be interesting, but it will make restarting your team even more frequent in longer leagues.

It doesn't say so in the rules. The way I understand it the "agent's fee" (+20k for each previous season played) is simply the extra money you have to pay to keep that player around for the next season during re-drafting phase, but it isn't added to their TV when you play the season itself.

Is there a comprehensive write-up somewhere, which details the new rules, and what has changed from the previous iteration?

There was, but the page was suspended for some reason. This is second best place I've found where the changes are compiled together, but they are not as detailed.

 

[SmartCheetah]

I wonder if they will introduce more customization options this time :/ Also, I found first game graphics to be cooler because my more advanced players were looking different in comparison to rookies.
In tabletop, all the customization makes huge difference for people. If I want to play a game of rolling dice, I would basicly go and play tabletop or FUMBBL. If they are using fancy graphics, why not make a lot of different assets to compliment that? I like nice things. That would make this game more enjoyable for me (and I believe, a lot of other people)

 

[Teut Busnet]

I wonder if they will introduce more customization options this time :/ Also, I found first game graphics to be cooler because my more advanced players were looking different in comparison to rookies.
In tabletop, all the customization makes huge difference for people. If I want to play a game of rolling dice, I would basicly go and play tabletop or FUMBBL. If they are using fancy graphics, why not make a lot of different assets to compliment that? I like nice things. That would make this game more enjoyable for me (and I believe, a lot of other people)

Cyanide are the fucking worst.

The customization in BB2 was horrible, the single player options - and AI - laughable, the nickel and diming insulting. They release basically the same Pro Cycling Manager every year since 2013.

Whatever the opposite of Steams 'Labor of Love' award is, they should create and automatically give it to Cyanide. Call it the 'Bare Minimum Prize'.

 

[Galdred]

The numerical disadvantage is only meaningful in leagues where each team had the same number of games played. In open leagues (even including private leagues with lots of seasons, like the Orca Cola Championship), it may well make things worse, because the only meaningful value is your TV efficiency.

Numerical disadvantage when it comes to skills is important, because if you have less players with Block or Wrestle than your opponent, then you are more likely to fail your blocks and he is more likely to succeed at them. Not only that - he will also have more chances of breaking your armor, potentially leading to stuns, KOs, injuries, etc. Leaving you even more outnumbered on the pitch.

Of course it is, but TV inefficiency is also a big deal. In open leagues, it will make you face hgiher TV teams too (the matchmaking pairs you against a team of similar TV, so you'd better be sure every of your skill is worth its price in Tv if you don't want to end up badly outmatched), and handing over some of the inducements, especially wizard, can make a huge difference.

One of the reasons Nurgle outperforms chaos at higher TV is that you don't need to have tons of expensive linemen. Cheap linos is also a big deal, as it makes attrition easier for you than your opponent (and paying 8 times for horns when you can use one/turn is a big waste).

 

[thesheeep]

I just saw Halflings won't be in the starting teams.

Disgusting. I love those little sausages.

 

[Teut Busnet]

With how many Treemen would a Halfling team be competitive? Would four be enough?

I always thought they should be able to field more than two.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Hmmm... many of the changes in the nuBlood Bowl seems so... unelegant. So many special rules. And most of the new skills seem pointless.

I like some of the new teams though. Snotlings, lmao. And the Black Orks, also know as "I've heard you like lizards but don't want to lose friends".

 

[LESS T_T]

 

[Jaedar]

Why did they have to make it so drab? Everything looks washed out, the dice are black and white...



The griff commercial is p good though, might be there will be some decent humour in the game.

 

[bionicman]

Interesting demonstration of the new 'jump over prone players' rule in that latest video (at ~2:00).

 

[Zanzoken]

Looks really bleh. I don't like the art style or the controller-ready UI.

I also think they're being fabulously optimistic bringing BB3 to consoles. It's not exactly a tard-friendly offering. I assume they are planning on cross-platform multiplayer?

 

[Jaedar]

Looks really bleh. I don't like the art style or the controller-ready UI.

I also think they're being fabulously optimistic bringing BB3 to consoles. It's not exactly a tard-friendly offering. I assume they are planning on cross-platform multiplayer?

Iirc it was a pretty big focus for bb2 as well, but I don't think it did very well on consoles or with controllers.

 

[bionicman]

Yep, it sucks cause it hasn't been cross-platform. They have their own CCL and have to wait forever in queues. I assume BB3 will not have cross-platform multiplayer either. So... another decline.

 

[Harthwain]

I wanted to post some of my impressions after watching cKnoors' Blood Bowl 3 Beta - First Full Game, but I will sum it up in a single sentence: Holy Moly, how could they make the UI so unreadable?

I am Blood Bowl 2 player and I was sometimes at a loss trying to understand what was happening. The UI needs a complete revamp, ASAP. It's the biggest turn-off for me at the moment.

 

[zapotec]

How long are AI turn times? Can you skip animation?

 

[Galdred]

I wanted to post some of my impressions after watching cKnoors' Blood Bowl 3 Beta - First Full Game, but I will sum it up in a single sentence: Holy Moly, how could they make the UI so unreadable?

I am Blood Bowl 2 player and I was sometimes at a loss trying to understand what was happening. The UI needs a complete revamp, ASAP. It's the biggest turn-off for me at the moment.

Haven't you ever lost a league match because you missclicked the end turn button which was conveniently placed at the wrong place without any confirmation about your 10 remaining actions to perform? Bad UI has been a stapple of Focus/Cyanide BB since the beginning.

 

[Harthwain]

Haven't you ever lost a league match because you missclicked the end turn button which was conveniently placed at the wrong place without any confirmation about your 10 remaining actions to perform? Bad UI has been a stapple of Focus/Cyanide BB since the beginning.

Truth to be told - I got into Blood Bowl 2 somewhat late, so maybe by the time I got there all the UI kinks had been ironed out. Still, one would think they know how to make a functional UI by now.