From Software Bloodborne. Discuss or die!

[The Decline]

Maybe I was just lucky, but I didn't find Ludwig to be much trouble. Might've been overleveled (as I recall I was around 80). I had one of the npc summons with me, I was using Ludwig's Holy Blade, and I was just really aggressive, stayed close to him.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Ludwig's Holy Blade has hyper armor so that would certainly prove to be advantageous for the first phase. Keep in mind that I was trying to kill Ludwig alone with a weapon that is primarily a ranged weapon, except I'm not given any time to actually use my ranged attacks, and the weapon lacks hyper armor so even a slight sneeze would stagger me. Level 80~ is about the level you're intended to be when you're tackling the DLC.

I got the Beast Cutter now and my god it is beautiful. It's not a 10/10 like the Hunter Axe is, but it is really fun to use. The range and reach of this weapon is pure art.

 

[Silva]

Just revenged Eileen against that crow-wearing dude in the grand cathedral, after 5 attempts. Man, what a fight. Weirdly I only won after I switched back to my whip cane, its long reach allowed me to grind his life little by little in a way the chikage couldn't.

About the Hunter Axe, it's awesome indeed. Perhaps the best starting weapon. I find all starting weapons really good in their own ways.

One thing I've found that could be better n the game is the weapon/gear progression. It seems the gear choice only opens up in the last third of the game or something, which makes things kind of tiresome in comparison to the souls games.

 

[Dyskolos]

I hate these goddamn chalice dungeons so much. Aside from the occasionally interesting new boss, does anyone actually enjoy these labyrinths and grinding for ritual materials just to open another dungeon and do it all over again.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I thought the Beast Cutter looked really cool, but found the whip moveset impractical, similar to Threaded Cane as a matter of fact. On my replay, I've gone into the DLC right after killing Amelia specifically to get the Beasthunter Saif, and it's really great. Pity you can't really use Burial Blade in NG properly, or the weapons from deeper into the DLC like Rakuyo.

I guess one good reason to play through NG+ in BB is to get to use all the cool weapons from the very beginning.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Beast Cutters whip is considerably less impractical than the Threaded Cane because the range is much better. It also has hyper armor and can pancake enemies, which is always great. I use the R2 more than R1 with the whip mode, and I use a lot of the Forward + R2 to perform the jump and hit because he reach on that move is especially majestic, but also powerful and risk free. I'm doing really great with it, but it does take a bit of getting used to to figure out the distances so you can dish out death without taking any punishment yourself. The only downside of the weapon is that it is incredibly easy to parry so some Hunter fights might be a bit rough, especially if they are the trigger happy type. Oh, and the rally potential is weak as shit as well. Compared to the Threaded Cane, I never used the whip mode on that weapon beyond Cleric Beast, because it's weak and useless. It's good for handling those normal human type enemies, but for anything else it's pretty worthless.

Edit: Beast Cutter also seems to do serrated damage with both modes so that's a huge plus when fighting against Beasts.

Edit Edit: After getting my Beast Cutter to +10, getting Str to 50 and Skill to 20 I can say that this weapon is amazing. It is so great. I've now moved on to improving my Arcane stat since I've gone through the whole game without using QS Bullets and so I'd like to do something with them. I got Arcane to 20 and the spells seem pretty fun. The Arcane weapon buff sucks ass since it gives a flat damage bonus which amounts to +10-15 damage, which is peanuts, but the Tentacle spell is really good. Apparently it can parry AND backstab, but it's also a good spell to use vs NPC hunters after I've run out of stamina. I can knock them down and when they get back up I'm ready to go again. It does pretty good damage as well with such a low Arcane investment. I was hitting Mergo's Wet Nurse for 230 damage with it at 18 Arcane.

 

[Silva]

The whip cane is good for its range, which allows you to whittle enemies from a safe distance little by little (this includes some bosses, like the bloody crow of Cainhurst). Its R2 staggers/break enemies posture and the whip form counts as serrated so it gains the invisible bonus against beasts. That said, comparing to the Axe and Saw Cleaver, it's slightly inferior due to its narrower usefulness and lower damage.

Now some questions that occurred to me:

- what makes a "chosen hunter" like us ? A contract with the moon presence ?

- what does the moon presence actually wants ? Why does it choses hunters from time to time ?

- is the hunt that happens in Yharnam in intervals a natural consequence of excessive blood ministration, or it always happens because of the moon presence influence ?

- why so many coffins around Yharnam ? Is it some practice the population adopted to deal with the scorge somehow ? Or is it an indicative that all is a dream or something ? ( it makes the overall aesthetics of the city kind of unreal in my opinion).

- is the game a dream ? I mean, the whole thing, not just the explicit dream and nightmare areas ?

- is the Cainhurst summons really addressed to us ? I mean, our original destination in the beginning was Cainhurst ? Or is that shit a spell that paints the name of the first one to open it to cheat people into going to Cainhurst and helping the queen (or becoming blood juice for its beasts) ?

 

[Hobo Elf]

These are just my interpretations, but here goes:

1) A chosen hunter is chosen the same way a chosen undead is: it's not determined by destiny but by your own hands. You happened to be more competent than the rest and that's all that sets you apart from them.

2) the moon presence doesn't specifically single out hunters, it just wants the amass them. It tricked Gehrman into being its bitch so that Gehrman would train new hunters so that they'd go out and collect blood for the moon presence. - I still haven't been able to connect the Night of the Hunt with the Lovecraftian elements so well so I'm unable to explain this any further. All I understand is that people made creepy experiments on each other to become closer to the Great Ones, and most of these experiments went horribly wrong which is why we have beasts lurking about now.

3) I think it's just something that happened once the beasts came about. They seem to be nocturnal monsters who grow in power during the night. When you go to the DLC area it is day time and there are beasts who cower in fear at the sight of you and other hunters, hinting that during the day the hunters are the ones who get hunted, like dogs.

4) Yharnam is just a macabre city ramped up to eleven, but I'm sure the death toll is quite high due to the beasts that lurk about. It's probably also to show how how desensitized the denizens are. This is a place that has replaced alcohol with blood after all.

5) It's not a dream. It's real. It all takes place during one night. It starts at dusk and end in dawn.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Nothing in the game really explains what the Moon Presence is or wants in a conclusive way. Or, on that note, why we need to kill Rom or Mergo, which is kind of a big deal given that they both mark turning points in the narrative. That's part of the reason I don't like the Lovecraftian twist, it takes a very straightforward narrative with clear themes and turns it into a confusing mess.

 

[Hobo Elf]

It's true. Bloodborne is the most straight forward Miyazaki game until the Lovecraftian stuff comes knocking. It's cool shit, but I haven't found any way to puzzle the first half of the game with the second half. I just came up with assumptions that killing Rom triggers the blood moon because there needs to be an X amount of Great Ones and as one dies they impregnate women with more ayy lmao babies to fill the status quo. I'm not sure why killing the Wet Nurse triggers the final fight, that makes no sense, but as I understand killing the Wet Nurse frees Mergo, who is the baby crying in the crib. If you go back to the ghost of Queen Yharnam after killing the Wet Nurse she will thank the hunter for freeing her baby. It has been said in the game somewhere (I forget where) that the aliens are sympathetic toward humanity so it's likely that nothing is done out of spite. They may very well want humanity to rise up with them into the stars.

 

[Talby]

Just off the top of my head so I may make some errors, but here goes;

Basically, researchers at Byrgenwerth Academy found an entrance to the Chalice Dungeons, which is where they found a bunch of Pthumerian shit, learned about the Great Ones and the Old Blood. The Old Blood is just the blood of Great Ones. All the blood that people drink in Yharnam is Old Blood, which has the nice effect of healing wounds and incurable diseases, but also turns people into beasts if used a lot. There was a schism in Byrgenwerth that led to the foundation of the Healing Church by Lawrence, who wanted to use the Old Blood to help people, while Provost Willem, the head of Byrgenwerth, wanted to study the Great Ones to enact a kind of forced evolution for mankind, turning people into Great Ones.

The Night of the Hunt is a regular event (maybe each full moon, maybe annually, it's not clear) where normal citizens lock themselves away so hunters can kill all the people who have turned into beasts so the city isn't completely destroyed. At first, this was done in secret as there weren't many beasts, but as the use of Old Blood became more common, it was impossible to hide the truth from the public, so it became a regular thing in Yharnam that everyone knows about. The existence of beasts most likely became common knowledge after the Scourge outbreak in Old Yharnam, which was burned to the ground. It's still unclear if the public is aware of the connection between Old Blood and the Scourge.

The stuff about Rom, Mergo and the Moon Presence I'm less certain about. Rom is a former student of Byrgenwerth that was turned into a Kin, aka a half-Great One, and her purpose seems to be hiding the Blood Moon. Mergo is a Pthumerian - a child of Yharnam, the Pthumerian Queen. Killing the Wet Nurse doesn't free Mergo, it kills him - notice that the "NIGHTMARE SLAIN" message doesn't pop up after killing the Wet Nurse, only after Mergo stops crying. The Moon Presence is a true Great One, as it has red blood rather than the grey blood of Kin.

 

[Elwro]

These are all very nice posts! (And they make me want to actually go and find the Queen finally.) If you want to read something from someone who clearly had too much free time on their hands, here's a 90 page doc: https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/33v7pq/lorethe_paleblood_hunt_an_indepth_90_page/

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I actually read that . And even those 90 pages don't explain what I talked about in my previous post.

But then, my issue isn't really about whether you can or cannot puzzle what's really going on by very carefully examining all the written material in the game (although apparently you can't even with that). What I don't like is that the game loses any kind of basic sense of purpose. During the first half, we are a hunter, we kill beasts because they are dangerous and attack us, and we explore because we want to find the source of the Scourge and end it. Then we get to Rom, and it isn't hostile, and doesn't really look like a beast. I honestly teleported out the first time I found Rom because I thought I needed to find some item to be able to talk to it. The only reason to kill Rom is that there's nothing else to do. After killing Rom, we get a mysterious message (in hindsight, from the Moon Presence I guess) to "seek the nightmare newborn". Why? Who knows. The implication is that the current fucked up state of the world is the Mensis school's fault somehow, but neither killing Micolash nor Mergo does anything to fix it. So it was just the Moon Presence manipulating us for its own gain - but why does the Moon Presence want Mergo dead in the first place? And then you get to fight Gehrman for... reasons? If the whole game was about killing beasts and progressively becoming more violent and bloodthirsty yourself, then the choice Gehrman offers would've been very appropriate, and would mirror the ending of Demon's Souls. As is, it just adds to the confusion.

Compare Dark Souls 1, where, even if you don't really pay attention and have no clue about the whole Gwyndolin - Frampt gambit and don't meet Kaathe, it's still pretty clear what you're trying to do and why at any given point of the game. The turning point (meeting Frampt, and then "Gwynevere") simply clarifies what needs to be done to end the curse, rather than introduce a bunch of confusing nonsense.

 

[Elwro]

Moon Presence wants a new child. We kill Mergo and if we do the rest of the game properly we become one?

(And at the beginning, I thought my character was a beast and that's why it's hunted by the hunters, but that I just don't see it...)

 

[Echo Mirage]

I think the reason they are attacking you is that you are an outsider. And foreigners are blamed for most if not all the problems in Yharnam.

As for what the Moon Presence wants. I think it has adopted Gehrman as its surrogate and uses him, like you and all the hunters before you as a means to an end. Perhaps to bring a permanent end to the hunts by eliminating the source of the corrupted blood. There could be other motives as well. Such as safeguarding humanity until by natural process they ascend to the level of the old ones by using hunters to put an end to any attempt to force evolve the species.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

On an unrelated note, the Bloody Crow is easily the cheapest enemy in all Souls games. Also an excellent example of why Bloodborne mechanics make NPC battles annoying at best (because you keep getting shot for a minuscule amount of hp) and stupidly cheap at worst (instant pistol shot for 40% of your HP which can parry and instakill you).

 

[Hobo Elf]

Moon Presence wants a new child. We kill Mergo and if we do the rest of the game properly we become one?

(And at the beginning, I thought my character was a beast and that's why it's hunted by the hunters, but that I just don't see it...)

PC likely gets hunted by hunters because they are all off the deep end and cannot tell the difference between man and monster anymore. Prior to the events of Bloodborne, it is doubtful that the PC was even a hunter at all (since you don't start with any trick weapons or hunter sanctioned armor). The story of the PC character is that he/she is afflicted by an incurable disease (much of the world is, in fact) that is going to kill you and the only cure known so far is the blood ministration in Yharnam. So you go there and somehow Gehrman injects you with his blood and you become a Hunter and, by bad luck, get trapped in a pretty bad time.

One interesting thing to note, and this is very easy to miss, is that when the PC performs a visceral attack, the hand you use to punch through an enemy turns into a beasts hand.

 

[The Decline]

The fact that the Moon Prescence's motives are unclear at best is just another nod to Lovecraft.

 

[Silva]

Thanks for the lore lessons bros. Things got a little bit clearer now.

I kind of agree with Cowboy Moment though. From half-way onward the game loses some of the initial drive. I'm on nightmare frontier right now and completely lost on what Im supposed to be doing here.

If I were not completely addicted and crazy to level up to enter the DLC area, I would have give up already.

Edit: Heh, just occurred to me that being completely addicted and wanting to level up more and more may be exactly my character drive too - only in-game this is translated to wanting to blood, blood and more blood.

And Hobo Elf I wouldn't be so sure to assert the Yharnam city area is the reality. Lovecraft fiction is full of "what's dream ? What's real ?" K. Dick-like schizophreny, so maybe Myazaki let it vague on purpose (when you use the Bold Hunter rune to go back to the last lantern, your character gestures lime he is trying to wake up, and the text on screen asks you exactly that - D you really want to reawake ?). From all Souls games I've played, this one is the most "open" to interpretation.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Gotta disagree with that, to me Bloodborne is the least open for interpretation as everything is pretty much laid out for you on the table. Up until the Blood Moon event everything makes sense. We know all the motivations of the characters, we know all the motivations of the factions; there isn't much room for debate here. And I think peeps need to step back and not look too much into the Lovecraftian elements being, well, Lovecraftian. For me the similarities begin and end with the things being creepy tentacled aliens from space. In Lovecraft the core idea is that these aliens are unkown to us. In Bloodborne Miyazaki decided to go in the opposite direction. Here's the lore snippet from the Moon rune: The Great Ones that inhabit the nightmare are sympathetic in spirit, and often answer when called upon. Not very Lovecraftian, no? To be able to go as far as to say that they are sympathetic toward the humans means that they are understood quite well.

I don't think the vagueness of some of the plot points comes off as things of mystery, but more like something that's undeveloped. And that's because everything else is explained in detail, but then the game fails to bridge the gap between the first half (the beast hunt) with the second half (the kin hunt). Where's the motivation for us to kill the kin? I understand why we hunt for beasts since they are dangerous and aggressive, but the Great Ones such as Rom and Erebietas are not hostile until we attack them. For Rom we kinda have a loose motivation because we learn that it knows the secret ritual for triggering the Blood Moon event, but why would the Hunter want to do that? I dunno. It's like halfway through development Miyazaki realized that he was making a real story and then stopped writing because he was afraid that fans would've been angry if there was no Dark Souls-like vagueness. Or maybe they ran out of time.

And I don't see much evidence to support that Yharnam is a dream. The only times you see the "Nightmare Slain" message is after killing a major boss when you are in Mergo's dream (not Micolashes dream! Otherwise it would've ended upon his death) and the Hunter's dream, which are dream areas. You're not dispelling any nightmares in Yharnam. We also see the sun setting in Yharnam and it becoming night, which indicates a day/night cycle happening, but we don't see anything like that happening in the dream worlds.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I definitely agree with the Lovecraft connection being rather shallow. In a very big way, Bloodborne's ethos is actually the polar opposite of Lovecraft's. In Bloodborne, the Great Ones are a model to aspire to, everyone pretty much agrees that humanity should evolve to become similar to them; they merely disagree on the specifics of said process. Even the scourge of beasts is something humans bring upon themselves by overusing Great One blood. Here, the fact that humans might go insane from interacting with eldritch knowledge from beyond the stars is seen as a human deficiency, something to be fixed via ascension to kin. I think even the description of Madman's Knowledge paints the madness as a positive thing.

All of this is never seen in Lovecraft's work. For him, the world is fundamentally inexplicable and horrifying, full of incomprehensible, powerful beings whose attitude towards humanity is cold indifference at best and outright malice at worst; ignorance is ultimately the only protection from this fact. It's a very fatalistic view. And for Lovecraft, it's humanity that's the only immediate source of good in the universe, vulnerable as it is to corruption by outside parties. It would never occur to him that it's somehow a problem with humans that they cannot comprehend Cthulhu.

 

[Silva]

Nice points. I can't disagree. About the openess to interpretation, I meant the second half of the game. Even if it feels really undeveloped.

And I couldn't beat Amygdala alone, and had to resort to a companion. More due to lack of patience than inability I think. I'm starting to grok Cowboy critic to the second half of the game. I'm not finding it easy (yet) but it got definitely weaker and uninspiring. A pity, as the first half is cool as hell.

 

[Hobo Elf]

What weapon are you using? I've only used weapons with great reach and Amygdala has always been a pushover for me. Its head is super duper weak and you can easily stagger it for a visceral attack after a couple hits. Yesterday I V.Attacked the bastard for 1.2k damage with my Strength dood, which was about 1/4th of its HP.

Anyhoo, I fought against Ludwig again with my Strength guy and this time I just fucked him up. Just fucked his shit up so bad. This guy isn't really so tough when you have a weapon with attacks that can't be staggered. Then I went to the 3rd Pthumerian chalice dungeon and got wrecked hardcore by the undead giant. I didn't lose, but that bitch took more than half of my health with a single hit each time it hit me, and I have 40 Vitality. What the fug, man.

 

[Silva]

Hobo, Im using a chikage+9 for melee and whip cane+7 for range control. Im a skill-26 bloodtinge-35 vitality-28 troubled childhood dood.

Perhaps my build was poorly made ? Im finding the game quite challenging. With some subtle peaks of difficulty here and there (I faced three fatties on a lower pthumerian depth 3 dungeon that almost raped me). It seems the starting whip cane-using skill-skinny is clearly inferior to the strength Axe-wielding guy.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Probably not such a good idea to go heavy on Bloodtinge or Arcane on your first playthrough. There also aren't that many good Skill weapons in the main game. My first playthrough was mostly quality with Ludwig's Holy Blade and I demolished everything with relative ease, but a Skill/Arcane build using the Cane primarily until I could get the Beasthunter Saif and Blades of Mercy wasn't really much more difficult.