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Game News Bloodlines glitch reporting forum up

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"I don't give a shit. I wasn't responding to his posts. I was responding to the ones you made, and I think most of us can agree that a lot of the stuff you said, especially the downplaying of KOTOR's serious CTD and sound/lag issues was atrociously stupid, typical of what you'd expect from Volourn."

You are an idiot. I wasn't downplaying it. I was downplaying it in comparison to TOEE's problems. Go jerk off to some Vampire boobies as you are losing control of yourself. It was VD who brought up Troika's buggy rep which btw way youa greed they deserved it. What a dink you are.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Volourn said:
I was explaining to him why that was the case.
You were? So all that whining and downplaying was actually an explanation? Go figure.

The explanation is simple, btw. People downplayed KOTOR's serious game-stopping issues, as you have demonstrated in this thread, but blow up BL "glitches" out of proportion.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
TOEE's problems in comparison to KOTOR were a lot less severe, but there were just far more of them in quantity even if most of them didn't cause CTDs or ridiculous slowdowns.

The difference between the two games was that KOTOR had its bugs fixed within a couple of weeks with some workarounds released fairly quickly after release, while TOEE went without a patch for months.

edit: In any case, the subject of this thread seems to be about the severity of the bugs present in Bloodlines. In comparison to KOTOR, this game's relatively bug free though there are 'glitches' - but there were tons of those in KOTOR and NWN. There is absolutely no comparison to TOEE.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
zenslinger said:
Volourn said:
multiples of people
This one turn of phrase absolutely made my morning.
Stick around then. Volourn can do even better. He's real smart. He went to 'niversity and like learned stuff there. :lol:
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"People downplayed KOTOR's serious game-stopping issues, as you have demonstrated in this thread, but blow up BL "glitches" out of proportion."

I'm sure not.


"He went to 'niversity and like learned stuff there."

No. I went to college. And, I learned nothing.
 

Reklar

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
395
Location
Port Orchard, WA, USA
I gotta side with Vault Dweller on this one, since I haven't seen a game released without bugs since the 8086 days (that's pre-286 days for the younger folk). Ever since 'net access became statistically prevalent companies have shifted towards patching after release to reduce their bottom-line for the bean-counters. I don't understand that logic since you still spend development time on fixing the bugs and risk gaining a bad reputation, but it makes sense to someone obviously.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"I gotta side with Vault Dweller on this one, since I haven't seen a game released without bugs since the 8086 days (that's pre-286 days for the younger folk)."

No one's disputing that. Every game has bugs. That is *not* the issue here.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Reklar said:
I gotta side with Vault Dweller on this one, since I haven't seen a game released without bugs since the 8086 days (that's pre-286 days for the younger folk). Ever since 'net access became statistically prevalent companies have shifted towards patching after release to reduce their bottom-line for the bean-counters. I don't understand that logic since you still spend development time on fixing the bugs and risk gaining a bad reputation, but it makes sense to someone obviously.

It's not just the availability of the interweb; it's also, and much more significantly, the fact that today's games are exponentially more complex to program and test than the pre-286 titles, and that the range of installed hardware is much more diverse. Bugs are literally - mathematically, that is - impossible to avoid in any codebase as large as that for today's games. The real problem, I think, is that QA procedures and priorities haven't kept pace with the increasing code complexity.

Doesn't change your basic point, but I wanted to clarify it a bit.
 
Self-Ejected

dojoteef

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
970
Alright, I guess I'm going to have to put up an indepth post about this. Before I got the game people were mentioning how there were some bugs in the game. I didn't think much of it, and thought people had to be blowing it out of proportion. I was so excited about the release, and was happy when I was able to pick up my pre-order. Started playing the game for a while and posted back on here my experiences, minor bugs, nuisances, what measures I took to ensure the game played welll, etc. Ever since then, I've had to defend the fact that I indeed had issues with the game, despite the fact that when I checked back on the forum, 2 or 3 people said they had the same issues verbatim.

The issues I was talking about were fairly pronouced and detracted from both the gameplay and the immersion for me. I keep trying to keep myself from saying this, but in words similar to Exitium's before he got the game, Why do you guys feel the need to fellate Troika? Don't get me wrong, they make great games, and I'm enjoying the hell out of the game (I'm in fact planning my new character while I play through the first time). I even think Arcanum was the best thing since Fallout and PS:T and I had no issues whatsoever when I played it. It's just your single-mindedness that seems to be saying anyone who mentions the game has a lack of polish is an evil heretic fuck. When you have issues with what another person is experiencing their is no need to deride them.

Now as for the KOTOR vs. ToEE issue. I had game stopping issues with ToEE, even with their latest patch. I have yet to complete the game once. I had no issues with KOTOR, but other people apparently did. The thing is, KOTOR is ONE game out of the NUMEROUS games Bioware has put out. They also addressed the issues very quickly. Troika hasn't put out so much, so bad apples stand out very well. I'm not a big Bioware fan at all, while I am a Troika fan. I just don't like the games Bioware puts out, they might be long and have lots of content, but they are boring for me to play. I just feel like I play them just to get through them. In fact the only game that I liked that used the Infinity engine is PS:T by BIS. So you can't claim my argument stems from anything other than the facts.

And speaking about the bugs that I've seen in Bloodlines, some of them are fairly inexcusable, like missing the last line of subtitles for dialog, music too loud to hear the dialog, getting stuck into things and being unable to move requiring reloads (and I have tried jumping around, crouching, moving, what have you; sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't), etc. I haven't played that many games in the past year, but I've played Max Payne 2, Far Cry, Doom 3, Lionheart (oh, and Lionheart is boring as all fuck). NONE of those games had these sorts of issues. I haven't patched a single one of them and they play great for me. Since those are the only games I can base my judgement on as to modern standards, the fact that they were bug free for me lends me to say that Troika's lack of polish is very annoying. I guess I've come to expect polish. Oh, and I forgot to mention I got ToEE within the last year as well, but as I mentioned it was buggy as hell for me even with the latest patches.

So now you know at least for me, why I made the judgements that I did. So why is it that you guys (especially the ones who have admitted Bloodlines does have bugs that you've experienced), think it's alright to downplay the fact that they exist? Like I'm saying, having bugs isn't going to keep me from playing the game, but they are an annoyance (especially ones that cause me to have to reload). I agree bug free software is a utopian dream, but some of the bugs I mentioned were quite plain and obvious when playing the game, they should have been caught by QA.

Time to get off of my high horse until my next post :D. Good day to you ladies and gentlemen!
 

Spazmo

Erudite
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
Messages
5,752
Location
Monkey Island
Are there going to be colossal arguments about ToEE's bugginess vs. KOTOR's awfulness vs. NWN's bugginess vs. Superman vs. Punisher every time Troika releases a game now? ToEE was buggy, Bloodlines is much less so, your results may vary. Now shaddap.
 

Reklar

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 22, 2004
Messages
395
Location
Port Orchard, WA, USA
suibhne said:
Reklar said:
I gotta side with Vault Dweller on this one, since I haven't seen a game released without bugs since the 8086 days (that's pre-286 days for the younger folk). Ever since 'net access became statistically prevalent companies have shifted towards patching after release to reduce their bottom-line for the bean-counters. I don't understand that logic since you still spend development time on fixing the bugs and risk gaining a bad reputation, but it makes sense to someone obviously.

It's not just the availability of the interweb; it's also, and much more significantly, the fact that today's games are exponentially more complex to program and test than the pre-286 titles, and that the range of installed hardware is much more diverse. Bugs are literally - mathematically, that is - impossible to avoid in any codebase as large as that for today's games. The real problem, I think, is that QA procedures and priorities haven't kept pace with the increasing code complexity.

Doesn't change your basic point, but I wanted to clarify it a bit.

Yeah, I completely agree with your additions and I meant to elaborate more, but I didn't have the time when I posted. Having been a QA Tester in the past I've experienced this issue firsthand many times, albeit not in a game development environment, and I can say it is frustrating as hell to know a customer is going to get a shoddy product because your time gets cut short. The axiom I leared as a Tester was, "The further from the hardware you get, the more potential there is for error," which I believe in completely. The problem is, as computer hardware has advanced and the gaming market has expanded and matured, the more complex the games have to be to entertain the customers. Whether it's fancy graphics, deep storyline and dialog, or online play for massive numbers of people, the codebase expands to accomodate necessity and therefore increases the chances of bugs. Furthermore, the more code there is to debug, the greater the chances are of creating new bugs when you fix the old ones. It takes a lot of experienced QA Testers to help the developers work through the bugs, but no matter how many testers you have I can guarantee you that a customer will manage to find something you missed, which is frustrating for more than just the customer. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that the industry as a whole is moving in the direction of quality over quantity, so I wouldn't expect the future to be any brighter for "out of the box" gaming experiences.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)
 

Visbhume

Prophet
Joined
Jun 21, 2004
Messages
984
It's not just the availability of the interweb; it's also, and much more significantly, the fact that today's games are exponentially more complex to program and test than the pre-286 titles, and that the range of installed hardware is much more diverse. Bugs are literally - mathematically, that is - impossible to avoid in any codebase as large as that for today's games

Furthermore, the more code there is to debug, the greater the chances are of creating new bugs when you fix the old ones

I'm not very knowledgeable with debugging and testing, but... if code complexity is to blame, why console games almost never suffer severe bugs ?

Furthermore: even conceding that the code of current videogames is getting more complex, the API's , engines, and development tools are becoming more powerful and general, too. A lot of graphic cards exist, but DirectX programming is universal. In the ancient times of DOS, games had to provide his own drivers for each piece of hardware supported ...
 
Self-Ejected

dojoteef

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
970
Visbhume said:
I'm not very knowledgeable with debugging and testing, but... if code complexity is to blame, why console games almost never suffer severe bugs ?

The idea is, the more sets of hardware you have to support, the more likely a bug will be introduced into the code. This has to do with the fact that the hardware varies so greatly in the PC world. If you look to Macs or consoles you find that there are generally fewer bugs simply for the fact that you get to design for a specific set of hardware. You'll also notice how games on a console generally get better later on in the console's life. That has to do with the fact that the developers get to understand the hardware much better and can code around any problems in the hardware and/or drivers (which they often will re-write partly in order to make them more efficient for their specific game).

Furthermore: even conceding that the code of current videogames is getting more complex, the API's , engines, and development tools are becoming more powerful and general, too. A lot of graphic cards exist, but DirectX programming is universal. In the ancient times of DOS, games had to provide his own drivers for each piece of hardware supported ...

DirectX is merely a communication protocol between the software (in this case the video games) with the drivers (graphics, sound, etc). It allows a unified language to be implemented in communication, that doesn't mean that the drivers do the operations properly. Each set of hardware and drivers do their business in their own way. Another thing is hardware, engines, API's, development tools all are engineered as well. They don't tend to be perfect either. They do tend to have bugs as well.
 

Stark

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
770
nah... a glitch is a bug. why the term spinning?

by the way Exitium are you doing the review this time? Is it coming out soon? Or VD will do it this time?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
Anyone but Exitium please. While VD, SP, and Spaz seem to be enjoying BL as well; they're thoughts on it are a lot more coherent and make a lot more sense and would be a good way to get reasonable people to try the game out. Exitium would just freak people by his over zealous fanboysim to the extreme as he si treating BL like newly born baby that needs defending from the Big Bad Wolf tm.

Of course, sicne I made this known, I'm sure he'll be picked to do the 'Codex Review whcih i tend to enjoy reading.. until now.. :cry:
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
dojoteef:

Umm, Im not fellating Troika here. Frankly, I have experienced very few bugs. Most of the stuff is just anims in cutscenes getting messed up a bit here and there and some occaisional texture issues. All this is EASILY outweighed by the amount of enjoyment the title has offered. It is just that good. I have experienced none of what you have listed. As for polish, I think the game is very well polished. There are plenty of little details. I love listening to the radio and tv every once in a while or eavesdropping on certain npc conversations. The voice acting is absolutely superb (great job guys). Hearing people moan about polish in this game mystifies me.

And, speaking for myself, I may give them a bit more slack than I would some other devs but thats primarily because I simply find their approach to the genre (generally in the strength of their character development systems and their implementations) to be more my taste to how Bio, Bethesda and other recent crpg devs go about things. So, I am willing to put up with more to get Troika gameplay than I am to get the kind of gameplay other companies offer (I will even put up with my characters running like they have a stick up their posterior). So, if you are wondering why some folks may be willing to give em some slack, that may or may not be part of the answer. Again, though, I have not had to "put up" with much in Bloodlines. It has been a thouroughly great experience thus far.
 

Spazmo

Erudite
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
Messages
5,752
Location
Monkey Island
I've run in to more CTDs that I'd like (read: at least one--but seriously, there have been a handful, mostly occuring on loading savegames or areas), I haven't really had any trouble with the game. Glitches, though... well the aforementioned odd problem with footstep noises continuing after you stop walking, for one. Another bothersome one is that the "time elapsed" timer in the savegame menu seems either broken or designed to be useless. I'm guessing that it's just timing how long you'd played between loading a game and saving that one, but that's not terribly handy. An indication of total time played--which I think is what's intended--would be better.

By the way, the TV in the game is awesome. Having a newscaster report on things you were doing earlier is terrific.
 

Otaku_Hanzo

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
3,463
Location
The state of insanity.
Shevek said:
And, speaking for myself, I may give them a bit more slack than I would some other devs but thats primarily because I simply find their approach to the genre (generally in the strength of their character development systems and their implementations) to be more my taste to how Bio, Bethesda and other recent crpg devs go about things

Well put. I guess I could say the same about why I like Troika. Hell, the character development model was my favorite part of the Fallout games as well as my fave part of Arcanum. Bloodlines uses the V:TM rules for character development, but Troika allowed for all sorts of different development through dialogue. My toreador seductress -is- a seductress. I'm continually being surprised by the game when I get a pink dialogue option on alot of things (pink being the color for seduction choices) as I didn't think it would be that prevalent throughout the game. Very nice stuff.

The only problems I have with the game really are due to my computer's limitations. I tend to get choppiness when it's raining and the lack of graphics tweaking options is really annoying. Oh, and some of the cutscenes need work too, but that's nothing showstopping. I, like Shevek, did have to override my monitor's refresh rate to 72 because all I got was a black screen when first running the game. But, I got it handled and it's no longer an issue.
 

Petey_the_Skid

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 1, 2003
Messages
170
Location
Stanstead, Quebec
Volourn's from North Bay?...heheheh no wonder he has time to sit on the net and have 3500+ posts*grins* Hopes I get a chance to play this game soon,my new computer is still being pieced together, becuase I'm itching for some vampiric action.
 

Whipporowill

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2003
Messages
2,961
Location
59°19'03"N 018°02'15"E
I've called dibs on the review - and will either do it myself, or a co-op thing - as several views are always interesting for such a game as this. I also want the site to avoid any possible Troika bias by having an ex Troika-fansite runner doing the review... ;)

I'm currently pretty far into the game and have just seen my first and only CTD. Wowsers! Sure, there are bugs and some perfomance issues - but nothing I'd say detracts from the game in a major way for me. There's ONE potential reported gamestopper which is coming up in the storyline for me, I guess you'll hear it if I get hit.

Ta ta. Game is currently a 8.5 for me - Santa Monica alone would have gotten something hovering over 9. Not that we use numeric value on our reviews here, but just a hint to my enjoyment of the game.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
Stark said:
nah... a glitch is a bug. why the term spinning?

by the way Exitium are you doing the review this time? Is it coming out soon? Or VD will do it this time?

Well, I might do it unless Saint or Spazmo want a go at it. Multiple reviews from some or all of us wouldn't be a bad idea, either, come to think of it. I'll just have to finish playing the game first.

I was defragmenting my hard drive for a couple of days and burning a lot of the crap I have on my hard drive onto blank discs (freed up around 70gb), so I couldn't play it in this time. I will resume shortly.
 

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