Game News Bloodlines update #12

[Shevek]

Volourn:

1) I didnt think Vampire would be hybrid RT but full RT (am I wrong here?). 2) This game will be a FPS akin to System Shock 2 or Deus Ex from what I can tell. Though the inclusion of speech/diplomatic skills certainly goes a bit further than those two aforementioned titles did, judging this game like one would a true blue cRPG seems skewed.

There is no need to turn this into some odd attempt to bring Bio hate into this discussion. It would be best to refer to criticisms of Deus Ex and System Shock (which are quite lively - SP in particular seems to have a strong dislike for FPS titles with RPG elements) when drawing parallels to this game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I see, it's not okay to make a "hybrid Rt system" for D&D; but Vampire is fair game for a "hybrid RT system"? R00fles! Twist, twist away.

Let's take it slowly:

1. DnD is combat oriented.
2. This combat is based on very specific rules that don't go very well with RT.
3. Therefore, anybody who's making a RT DnD game is breaking many rules thus making something else.

Now, WoD is story oriented, the combat is simplier, and could be translated much easier without breaking anything or much in the process. Apples and oranges, Volourn.

 

[Volourn]

Please. It's no more story oreinted than D&D. The bottom line is that Troika is taking an existing system and twisting it to meet their needs in their game when Mr. Cain had said he didn't 'approve" of such behaviour. I relaly have no problem with them doing that if it'll make the game more fun for the players but the hypocrisy involved is laughable and in evidenced here by those here espicially you are defending this course of action after slobbering all over BIo for doing the same. heck, even if I were to buy your silly argument that D&D is more combat oriented (I don't); that "fact' is irrelevant. Period. It's not apples,a nd oranges. Changing Vampires combat rules - simpler or not - will break certain things. Duh.

 

[Vault Dweller]

on being hit often... you have to remember you're lugging a three dimensional rectangle through the game enviroment. it may be divided into seperate sectors, with varying damage resistance, but it's still a large piece of real estate. there's no way to get around that using the half-life two engine, which i think was a smart design choice.

I agree, but that wasn't the point. The point was that TB handles "real estate" management much better, by allowing to take proper care of your prized rectangle during your turn. Also, that comment wasn't in regard to Bloodlines but to the neverending discussion "TB vs RT".

Btw, isn't a three dimensional rectangle a parallelogram?

 

[Psilon]

No, you're thinking of a parallelepiped. A parallelogram is a quadrilateral with parallel opposing sides. All (planar) rectangles are parallelograms.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Please. It's no more story oreinted than D&D.

Is that a fact?

The bottom line is that Troika is taking an existing system and twisting it to meet their needs in their game when Mr. Cain had said he didn't 'approve" of such behaviour.

Ok, well, we moved from "said he would never try to make" to "didn't approve". That's already an improvement. I was happy to help you stop making an ass out of yourself That's what friends are for. :wink:

the hypocrisy isinvolved is laughable and in evidenced here by those here espicially you are defending this course of action

Defending? I'm merely correcting you. In case you didn't notice my comment wasn't exactly positive.

Changing Vampires combat rules - simpler or not - will break certain things. Duh.

Ok, now all that is left is to name the rules that would be broken. Take your time. :wink:

 

[Volourn]

No need to. According to Mr. Troika himself taking a tb system to RT system will automatically break things and at the very elast change how other things work. But, alas, it's Timmy doing it and sicne he;s a genius Vampire The Video Game will play exactly like Vampire the PnP game. Right? Right? I thought so.

 

[mr. lamat]

single character turn-based combat is the fucking suck. teh suck!

move one: see bad guy and get behind cover
move two through twenty-seven: wait for bad guy(s) to rush you and cap away.

wash, rinse, repeat ad nauseum. the rt vs. tb debate has to placed in cotext and in this game, even with a health meter tweak, rt wins. a smart player can take care of his parallelogram (i'm going to trust you) by careful movement through the enviroment, not by waiting for the game to pause and a 'begin combat' message to pop-up. the only way in which tb let's you take better care of your real estate is by stating you've got ruckus coming.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No, you're thinking of a parallelepiped. A parallelogram is a quadrilateral with parallel opposing sides. All (planar) rectangles are parallelograms.

Right! Dammit, it's really been awhile since I've thought of geometrical shapes. Parallele-fucking-piped, huh? Thanks, Psilon.

Ok, mr. lamat, disregard my question. Nobody would take a person who uses words like parallelepiped seriously. 3 dimensional rectangle it is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

single character turn-based combat is the fucking suck. teh suck!

move one: see bad guy and get behind cover
move two through twenty-seven: wait for bad guy(s) to rush you and cap away.

Ever played Fallout? Silent Storm solo? Scouts with knives (melee and throwing) were quite deadly and effective, don't you think?

 

[Vault Dweller]

No need to. According to Mr. Troika himself taking a tb system to RT system will automatically break things and at the very elast change how other things work.

Link please.

Vampire The Video Game will play exactly like Vampire the PnP game. Right? Right? I thought so.

Who said anything about CRPGs being like PnP? We were talking about a system and whether or not its rules work the same way in RT. At this point it's hard to say for sure, but so far it looks like Troika implemented quite a lot. The rest remains to be seen unless you already know better and can give examples to support your claims.

 

[Volourn]

"Quite a lot" does not = all. Heck, BIO impleneted 'quite a lot" of D&D rules too. Linksa re all over the palce. heck, the link in this very thread illustratees one of the changes Troika has made and also a link provided by you showing how Cain doesn't thinka tb system should be changed into a RT one. Case closed. but, then again, that's only bad when BIo does it; but when Troika does it it's cool.

Rememebr, I don't have a problem with changes being made. That's Codex and Cain's beef. It's just the hypocisy that I'm pointing out.

 

[taks]

3 dimensional rectangle it is.

but a rectangle is 2 dimensional... area only. the 3rd dimension creates volume.

i think TB with a single character would suck ass, btw. of course, i'm not really a fan of single character games in general (my primary gripe with NWN, henchmen aside and ignorinig the boredom they called a story).

taks

 

[Ausir]

Single character TB sucks? Have you people played Fallout?

 

[Volourn]

I'm with Ausir here. TB w/ SP works pretty damn good . :twisted:

 

[taks]

Single character TB sucks? Have you people played Fallout?

nope. notice how i stated that "i think" and also used the word "would."

unfortunately, sci-fi/cyberpunk/whateverthefuckitis isn't my preferred setting for an rpg setting. personal preference i suppose. maybe because my job is so focused on things of that nature... dunno.

i may break down and buy it given the utter lack of anything else to play right now.

taks

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry, missed your post, Volourn.

"Quite a lot" does not = all.

Agree. I meant it as in "so far they did a lot of things that should be there". They can continue that trend and make a "faithful adaptation" ToEE-style or they can stop at any moment and figure that "quite a lot is all". We will see when the game is released. If it sucks, I would have no problems saying just that.

Linksa re all over the palce. heck, the link in this very thread illustratees one of the changes Troika has made

Although I didn't like it, adding a few HPs isn't a big deal. Surely you'd agree with that.

a link provided by you showing how Cain doesn't thinka tb system should be changed into a RT one. Case closed

Where does it say that? Would it kill you to post the exact quote instead of acting as an interpreter?

 

[Volourn]

Yes, it would kill me. You know exactly which article/interview I'm referring to. You remember the oen where most everyone ehre jump up and down as the cummed becayuse the Great Cain put the Bioweenies (and others) in their palces because theyd ared to turna tb combat system into a pseudo Rt mish mash? Remember when he said he would not do that if at all possible posisble as that would change the system too much? I know, I know. He was talking about TOEE and D&d; but you'd think the same thing would aplly to other Tb pnp games (aka Vampire); but I guess not. Vampire is 'special" and it's ok to change it from tb into RT.


LMAO

 

[mr. lamat]

what made the combat in fallout so great? you pointblank each other until someone falls down. you get to shoot at whomever you like, true, and can use a variety of weapons... but beyond that it wasn't overly interesting or all that tactical. you couldn't fire from behind cover. going full auto on someone from any angle had no discernable effect. at times, the single player combat was it's biggest downfall, making battles against a horde of mutants take half an hour when it could have been over in five seconds. none of the game elements in fallout were all that great, but it still shines in terms of story and rulesets.

your examples are also teh suck. well, maybe silent storm is an exception, but i don't know... nazi's go in the same basket as pointy-eared anoxerics wearing bathrobes and homosexual midgets... you can keep those games for yourselves.

 

[Volourn]

You nuts. Fo combat r0xx0rs!

 

[mr. lamat]

place mouse cursor over badguy
decide on burst, sniper or straight shot
decide area to hit if sniper shot is called
click button...

wash, rinse, repeat...

i get the feeling you'd be amazed by a cup and ball.

 

[Vault Dweller]

what made the combat in fallout so great? you pointblank each other until someone falls down. you get to shoot at whomever you like, true, and can use a variety of weapons... but beyond that it wasn't overly interesting or all that tactical. you couldn't fire from behind cover. going full auto on someone from any angle had no discernable effect. at times, the single player combat was it's biggest downfall, making battles against a horde of mutants take half an hour when it could have been over in five seconds. none of the game elements in fallout were all that great, but it still shines in terms of story and rulesets.

I guess if you played it and didn't get it, it would be pointless trying to convince you otherwise.

your examples are also teh suck.

I'm sorry. I will try harder next time.

 

[mr. lamat]

I guess if you played it and didn't get it, it would be pointless trying to convince you otherwise.

kim thiyal sez: LAME!!!

it took a great story and combined it with half-ass tb combat. the guns were the high holy of badass gear, but it didn't have a tenth of the functions ja, ja2 or x-com did... and all those predated fo if i'm not mistaken.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes, it would kill me. You know exactly which article/interview I'm referring to.

Yes, I know, I just don't see the quote(s) you've been attributing to Cain all day.

You remember the oen where most everyone ehre jump up and down as the cummed becayuse the Great Cain put the Bioweenies (and others) in their palces because theyd ared to turna tb combat system into a pseudo Rt mish mash?

Yes

Remember when he said he would not do that if at all possible posisble as that would change the system too much?

No. Thanks for playing. Try again. I quoted above what he said. Read it again.

I know, I know. He was talking about TOEE and D&d; but you'd think the same thing would aplly to other Tb pnp games (aka Vampire); but I guess not. Vampire is 'special" and it's ok to change it from tb into RT.

Why would that apply to all TB games? It wasn't the TB that was the centre of attention, but the rules that were NOT designed for RT. There are rules that are not that dependant on a particular mode, DnD isn't the case.

 

[Volourn]

Please. Vampire was amde with tb in mind. Now ya gonna say that people actually play pnp Vampire in RL. LMAO.