Game News Bloodlines update #12

[Transcendent One]

I never played Vampire P&P but if that blood dots thing functions the way people say it does, thank God they are getting rid of it. Sounds like an utter crapfest to me.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Implying that I'm stupid isn't the brightest thing you've said, VD. Everyone knows that I'm not.

Everyone? How very optimistic of you, Ex. Why don't you set up a poll thread then and see what everyone thinks of you?

Why don't you be the person to start up such a thread, VD? If you think you're up to the task, feel free to do so.

Everyone knows I'm a bit of an asshole (is that an understatement?) but stupid? No, people just start saying things like that when I call them out for their constant, overextended mental masturbatory sessions of bullshit.

 

[Spazmo]

Rex isn't stupid, he just has a tendency to be an enormous pain in the ass.

 

[Volourn]

Spaz, what is it with you and asses?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Fallout's combat may not have been the best combat in the world, but it still offered more options for things than most CRPGs did and even do to this day. With most CRPGs, melee is just a slap with a weapon and that's the only choice. In Fallout, you had several different attacks with most melee weapons. For example, a sledgehammer would give you a thrusting attack as well as a swing attack, and you could do aimed attacks with both. Guns were the same way, you often had a choice of modes depending on the weapon. Not too many CRPGs offered that - how many ways are there to swing a sword in the infinity engine games? Or fire an arrow?

That said, of course you have to change and break rules in a turn based system when you convert it to real time. That's another thing I don't care much about Vampire. Even though it's not a very good system even in P&P, there's really no other point in licensing a system if you're not going to use the rule for that system other than pimping the name for extra sales.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why don't you be the person to start up such a thread, VD? If you think you're up to the task, feel free to do so.

I wasn't the one who said that everyone thinks that I'm smart, was I? It's up to you to back it up with something in the best traditions of the Codex.

Everyone knows I'm a bit of an asshole (is that an understatement?) but stupid?

One can argue that the reason behind being an asshole is stupidity. Anyway, is there a good reason to continue this flame war? You called me a moron twice today, before I replied to you, just because you disagreed with my comments. Guess what, Rex, I often disagree with what you post, but I don't call you names just because I feel like it, I argue with you. See the difference?

Anyway, we can stop it now or we can continue with the pointless insults. Your call.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Fallout's combat may not have been the best combat in the world, but it still offered more options for things than most CRPGs did and even do to this day. With most CRPGs, melee is just a slap with a weapon and that's the only choice. In Fallout, you had several different attacks with most melee weapons. For example, a sledgehammer would give you a thrusting attack as well as a swing attack, and you could do aimed attacks with both. Guns were the same way, you often had a choice of modes depending on the weapon. Not too many CRPGs offered that - how many ways are there to swing a sword in the infinity engine games? Or fire an arrow?

That said, of course you have to change and break rules in a turn based system when you convert it to real time. That's another thing I don't care much about Vampire. Even though it's not a very good system even in P&P, there's really no other point in licensing a system if you're not going to use the rule for that system other than pimping the name for extra sales.

I completely agree. Fallout offers much more tactics than a whole lot of RPGs. Not as much as a dedicated tactical game like S3, but certainly a whole lot more than anything Bioware's produced. I liked that about Fallout, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing RPGs head further in that direction. As it is, RPG combat is getting pretty stale with the numerous Dungeon Siege types of titles these days which offer neither the tactical possibilities of Fallout, nor the dialogue or storyline.

As for the subject of Bloodlines, I agree that they seem only to be cashing in on the license and nothing more. I for one am happy that they are making the modifications or the game would most certainly be quite boring without actual human interaction which is what makes Vampire campaigns enjoyable - certainly something that isn't the result of the combat.

 

[mr. lamat]

i didn't say it was terrible, just that it was nothing special... heh. the difference between bashing and thrusting with a sledgehammer is utterly negligable. if i can't dive behind cover or spray and a room from around the corner, the meaning of turnbased isn't really delivered. others pointed it out as an awesome example.

back to the topic at hand... blood dots. maybe the goth kids think they're great, but if i'm dodging bullets i don't want a shot in the foot causing the same amount of damage as a knife in the chest. perhaps this change did break something, a really stupid rule. i refuse to pump seven rounds into some asshole's head just to make him die.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Damn! That's about better than I would have put it, Mr Lamat. Well done.

It's a really fucking stupid rule.

 

[Sarkile]

If you're shooting someone in the head and actually hitting, odds are that you're going to be doing more than 1 damage per round.

 

[Sol Invictus]

There is no such thing as locational damage in the pen and paper version of Vampire. Hence the changes in Bloodline. I'd hate to play a next generation FPS game with no locational damage.

 

[Sarkile]

Aiming at the head increases the difficulty to 8 but the damage dealt to the vampire remains lethal instead of bashing.

 

[Sol Invictus]

It's just not suitable for first person combat.

 

[mr. lamat]

if i creep up on someone, i don't want to have a difficulty multiplier applied to my shot. the stealthing was hard enough in the first place. and since when did bullets do bashing damage? piercing, yes, explosive, yes... both with the right kind of bullets, but bashing? maybe if it was lead shot from a blunderbas, but a mossberg is something much different.

don't know much of anything about the combat system in vampire, but it's beginning to sound more and more like a rework was needed to make the game better.

 

[Sarkile]

Bullets only do bashing damage to vampires.

 

[mr. lamat]

i thought they used phosphorous shotguns against vampires? and what about silver nitrate laced bullets? if i'm restricted to bashing damage with bullets won't even the heaviest calibre be nerfed by a simple vest? i am unenthused about what is being said.

if the devs are reading: can my pc wear a hoodie, skate shorts and sandals or is it all 'dark, brooding goth' capes and leather wankness.

 

[Spazmo]

More importantly, can I make masks out of the faces I hack off of dead hobos? It'd be pretty useful for Nosferatu to be able to make disguises out of the dead.

Shit, I'd pay the price of admission just to make hobo costumes from the homeless people I'll murder.

 

[mr. lamat]

simply villianous!!! a transient eugenics program!

but i still say they're dirty.

 

[Spazmo]

Transient Eugenics? Sounds like a really good name for a band.

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

Notice that there are no combat heavy Vampire campaigns. The dots are the reason. I suppose in some way they serve to equalize campaigns by forcing the Storyteller to focus more on the story and the characters instead of having a dungeon romp ever so often.

Frankly, I and I'm sure many other people find Vampire to be boring precisely because of that. It's all about those fucking goths, emos and ravers who go about pretending to be something they're not while behaving all smug and intelligent about it, like they're better than everybody else while they live in their little fantasy world of bullshit.

Bring on the hobo killing.

This is fucking funny shit...most of my TT group games are Sabbat heavy splatter fests. I find the combat much more enjoyable than D&D, with a lot more options as well. Somethings are more abstract in certain cases, but with most vampires ability to soak most damage with ease, or even avoid getting shot, combat is a helluva lot more than just hit and miss, 1's and 0's, and that's even before you bring disciplines into the mix. The onbly problem with comabt vampire is you have to keep in mind, that no matter how tough you're character is, there is some creepy elder that's far more powerful than you could dream of who can stomp you like a bug. That's just not possible in d&d without the dm arbitrarily deciding that you can't beat a monster or boss, if you're characters are of a high enough level.

By the way, silver doesn't do shit to vampires, but if you can get a hold of some phosphorous, than it just might. As for damage, different weapons have much different potentials, a base damage to which is then added the accuracy of you're hit, plus strength for melee, or potential damage modifiers for diffrent ammunition types, there are alos modifers for locational damage. Lets go with an example here: a Glock 17 9 mm has a base damage of 4 dice, hollowpoint ammo would add +2 to this factor,a head shot would add another + 2 to the total. This makes the base damage 8 dice for a head shot, with successes on the hit roll past the first success, which is needed to simply hit the target, adding additional dice. Therefore, a person who had rolled three successes on his hit roll would have damage potential of 10(the average would be around 5 damage after dice are rolled). 5 damage or more to a specific location damages it utterly ,,in the case of a head shot, blowing you're fucking head off, which causes instant death even to vampires. Also, being a head shot, this treated as lethal damage for vampires, instead of bashing, as the head is smaller, less resilent target and much more important than the body(where all basic shots are targeted). This means that average joe vampire, without significant stamina or fortitude which would allow him to soak the damage, can be fairly easily blown away with a shot to the head. This is one reason why the ventrue are so succesful at holding their positions, and no one tangles with a gangrel without good reason, as they can simply shrug off most damage with their clan discipline of fortitude.

It's not like d&d combat is very satisfying, with it's hit the target number that is so biased towards high level characters.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Most of the games I've played revolved around politics and role-playing. I've never fancied the Sabbat-oriented Vampire games because the tactical system is nowhere as balanced or well developed as D&D 3.5 or Heavy Gear.

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

Edited my above post, i find vampire combat a hell of a lot better than D&D any day. The stuff about damage isn't house rules either, it's all in the main VTM book(3rd edition).

 

[Sol Invictus]

Playing a D&D Campaign with epic levels is seldom ever fun, unless you've got a very old group of gamers with you and a very, very dedicated GM who is willing to spend his time play-balancing his campaign without throwing 20 black dragons into the mix.

D&D is a lot more fun at the low levels (1-12) and is the reason why most of the campaigns I play in start at those levels with each participant choosing a new character to role-play rather than sticking to an old one.

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

Definetly agree with you there, I like gritty low level d&d campaigns myself, 1rst to 5th level characters..after that, everything seems to get fantastically heroic, in terms of damage dealt and recieved. I do find that vampire offers me a fair amount of tactical options, more than d&d in fact, and also has an edge that d&d doesn't...with just 7 health levels for most characters, combat is a lot more dangerous and exciting, as a good or lucky hit can take down a character in a single round, much harder to do in d&d, even with criticals, unless you're playing very low level games.