Interview Brian Fargo and Josh Sawyer Mega-Interview at PC Gamer

[vivec]

NWN2 was a lot more fun to play than Pillows

Every once in a while I fire up MotB because the story is so fucking awesome. I sometimes make it all the way to Mulsantir before going ohgodnopleasestop. Because of the gameplay.

But apparently for some reason, this is not your reaction while playing PoE.

In my opinion, NWN2 combat is just as bad as in PoE. Except NWN2 character making is fun, spells are better and the story of MoTB blows PoE to pieces.

 

[Fry]

Ugh.

ANYTHING isometric is more enjoyable than dealing with NWN2's camera controls.

 

[vivec]

PoE does boast a great graphic frontend.

 

[Prime Junta]

Ugh.

ANYTHING isometric is more enjoyable than dealing with NWN2's camera controls.

It's not just the camera either. Issuing commands is a lot more fiddly. You can't f.ex. just lasso everyone and tell them to move or attack someone, and the command queue makes everything feel laggy. Playing NWN2 is like trying to swim in molasses.

Selecting and commanding units is the beating heart of gameplay in this style of game, and even if you hate Pillars with a passion you ought to be able to begrudgingly concede that it does that bit acceptably.

 

[TigerKnee]

You like blobbers. Aren't you a grog?

Or maybe you meant this in a fond way, in which case I take it back.

I think Grogs are characterized by their "my way or the highway" attitude where RPGs has to be exactly X specifications or they suck.

 

[Excidium II]

That's not what it means. Sawyer's meaning of grognard is about as distorted as that of LARPing in the codex.

 

[Excidium II]

Ugh.

ANYTHING isometric is more enjoyable than dealing with NWN2's camera controls.

It's not just the camera either. Issuing commands is a lot more fiddly. You can't f.ex. just lasso everyone and tell them to move or attack someone, and the command queue makes everything feel laggy. Playing NWN2 is like trying to swim in molasses.

Selecting and commanding units is the beating heart of gameplay in this style of game, and even if you hate Pillars with a passion you ought to be able to begrudgingly concede that it does that bit acceptably.

There's also something very glitchy about movement in that game, I've lost count how many times a melee character got absolutely rekt by AoOs for no reason because they fidgeted around when I switched to another character.

It seems to happen when you disable AI and use marquee selection.

 

[throwaway]

Which makes it all the more ridiculous the various attempts at porting games to that abomination of an engine.

 

[Roguey]

That's not what it means. Sawyer's meaning of grognard is about as distorted as that of LARPing in the codex.

Adventure grogs prefer classic-style adventure games with puzzles to these new walk-and-talk asset tours, I don't see the issue.

 

[Maggot]

Good to see some love for Way of the Samurai in that interview.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

I like the fact JS acknowledges they didnt know how big the POE KS was going to be. Talk about publishers being out of touch right?
The game was made with care but not with passion. Like a sunday mousse, and not a birthday cake.

Now playing Firewatch?
Fuck that.
The age of Mysts and Atlantis is truly over.

 

[Infinitron]

The New Fargo-Sawyer Axis:



Also heh:

 

[Prime Junta]

What somebody wanted to put The Sperminator into WL2 and Fargo killed it?

 

[Infinitron]

What somebody wanted to put The Sperminator into WL2 and Fargo killed it?

Haha, that's actually old news: http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2014/07/30/wasteland-2-almost-many-words-bible

 

[ZagorTeNej]

This is how I look at things re: PoE's system and systems in general.

IMO, PoE's system can be described as essentially a 3E/4E D&D hybrid plus Sawyer tweaks.

First, I think PoE's solid foundations in RPG design have gone under-recognized. People look at it and see a horrendous mutilation of the AD&D they remember from Baldur's Gate, rather than a game that follows many of the same steps that WotC themselves did in the 2000s. It's easy to see why - we never got a proper tactical RTwP 3rd or 4th Edition D&D game in the 2000s (IWD2 was an easily ignored, partially implemented black sheep of a game, and NWN2's combat was a joke). There's no really good frame of reference for properly evaluating what Sawyer did with his systems design tweaks.

If the difference would have been negligible with any other modern incarnation of existing RPG systems doesn't that play into what people are saying that all the time Sawyer/Obsidian spent creating their own systems is essentially wasted? They could have gone with something established and allocated resources elsewhere.

For all Sawyer supposed system design excellence (that is supposed to be his forte, along with understanding the importance of history when designing settings), you say his work in that aspect of the game had no noticeable impact (no more than your average house ruled D&D).

But, more to the point of this discussion, I think systems are moderately important to an RPG's quality. I think they're especially important for replayability. You play the game once, you're mostly thinking about the content. Play it again, now you're looking more at how you can tweak your experience via the systems. But that's looking at the system as a whole. As I said, PoE's system isn't just Sawyer tweaks. It's that D&D foundation PLUS the tweaks. The tweaks alone, IMO, just don't really matter that much. They're quality-of-life stuff that people have obsessed about to a disproportionate degree.

Then it depends on how much stock you put on replayability, IMO it is (or should be) one of the key strengths that separates RPGs from other genres. Of course even then systems are married to content, if encounter design is lackluster for example it takes a lot of fun out of trying different classes, party compositions, items etc.

 

[MrE]

This is how I look at things re: PoE's system and systems in general.

IMO, PoE's system can be described as essentially a 3E/4E D&D hybrid plus Sawyer tweaks.

First, I think PoE's solid foundations in RPG design have gone under-recognized. People look at it and see a horrendous mutilation of the AD&D they remember from Baldur's Gate, rather than a game that follows many of the same steps that WotC themselves did in the 2000s. It's easy to see why - we never got a proper tactical RTwP 3rd or 4th Edition D&D game in the 2000s (IWD2 was an easily ignored, partially implemented black sheep of a game, and NWN2's combat was a joke). There's no really good frame of reference for properly evaluating what Sawyer did with his systems design tweaks.

If the difference would have been negligible with any other modern incarnation of existing RPG systems doesn't that play into what people are saying that all the time Sawyer/Obsidian spent creating their own systems is essentially wasted? They could have gone with something established and allocated resources elsewhere.

For all Sawyer supposed system design excellence (that is supposed to be his forte, along with understanding the importance of history when designing settings), you say his work in that aspect of the game had no noticeable impact (no more than your average house ruled D&D).

But, more to the point of this discussion, I think systems are moderately important to an RPG's quality. I think they're especially important for replayability. You play the game once, you're mostly thinking about the content. Play it again, now you're looking more at how you can tweak your experience via the systems. But that's looking at the system as a whole. As I said, PoE's system isn't just Sawyer tweaks. It's that D&D foundation PLUS the tweaks. The tweaks alone, IMO, just don't really matter that much. They're quality-of-life stuff that people have obsessed about to a disproportionate degree.

Then it depends on how much stock you put on replayability, IMO it is (or should be) one of the key strengths that separates RPGs from other genres. Of course even then systems are married to content, if encounter design is lackluster for example it takes a lot of fun out of trying different classes, party compositions, items etc.

Unless you own a system, you have to choose between licensing and creating one, so perhaps they decided it would be cheaper for Josh to do it in-house. Sure, it takes more time than just going and buying one but that's the trade-off.

RPGs are in general more replayable than other genres but that isn't necessarily their most distinguishing advantage over the rest. I agree 100% with the last sentence though.

 

[Roguey]

Then it depends on how much stock you put on replayability, IMO it is (or should be) one of the key strengths that separates RPGs from other genres.

Josh says

Replayability is a side-effect of non-linear quest design and supporting role-playing in general, not a goal in itself.

 

[Hegel]

Was PoE non-linear? I stopped playing at rragar's castle, which is supposed to be the best part of the game.

 

[Excidium II]

Then it depends on how much stock you put on replayability, IMO it is (or should be) one of the key strengths that separates RPGs from other genres.

Josh says

Replayability is a side-effect of non-linear quest design and supporting role-playing in general, not a goal in itself.

Replayability is a side effect of game being good. Different content is just bonus.

 

[Xzylvador]

I haven't taken the Codex's temperature regarding Pillars of Eternity lately, but in general, I'm fairly sure it's not considered a shining paragon of cRPGs even within the party-based RTwP category.

Which is odd, 'cuz everyone here looooves dem sum RTwP?

But it's true. You guys have wasted a year bitching about systemic stuff that doesn't matter and you still don't realize it. It's the content, stupid. Content is king. If anything, PoE's 3E/4E-inspired system design is what sets it apart from the Infinity Engine games and makes it interesting.

I see Sensuki is watching these threads again, but even he admitted early on, even after everything he wrote, that the game's narrative was ultimately his real turn-off. PoE's real problem isn't that it's not AD&D enough. It's that it's not PS:T enough.

One of the reasons I did that interview with Eric is that I realized that the nitpicky systems-centric, Sawyer-centric criticism of PoE had run its course and that the narrative and other high-level design aspects of the game were emerging as the more important topic. Because that's what stays with you in the long run. 5 years later you don't think about "melee engagement", you think about the story and the overall experiences that you had. But there's always some people who can't let go.

Wrong.

PoE's 'story' is something I mostly forgot roughly 2.5 hours after I finished struggling through it and decided to drown the disappointment with a bottle of wine which was followed by lots of scotch because it wasn't enough.

For lots of other games (now considered good) you're pretty much spot-on though.

Spoiler

Infinitron = storyfag confirmed.

 

[Kem0sabe]

PoE has to be one of the least replayable rpgs o have ever played to completion.

The story is just so boring to slog through more than once.

 

[Infinitron]

Forgotten after 2.5 hours, unforgettable after more than a year.

 

[Hegel]

PTSD

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Was PoE non-linear?

Technically speaking, it was. You get plenty of freedom of where to go, what to do and who to side with after the 1st act. Especially now with the expansion.

In practice however, it makes fuck all worth of difference as it alls feels exactly the same. The game is packed with C&C so inconsequential that you never notice it exists.

Forgotten after 2.5 hours, unforgettable after more than a year.

"PoE was a major dissapointment, my 5th playthrough on PoTD solo wasn't as fun as I expected."

 

[karfhud]

Cool interview, it's a good read when this loose, discussion-transcript style makes it to the final version.

More importantly, wow:

BF: I can tell you that Torment just went over 1.2 million words(...)

I wonder how much more's gonna be added, and then what'll the total amount of words they cut during editing...