Interview Brian Fargo and Josh Sawyer Mega-Interview at PC Gamer

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Infinitron, I'm not sure why you're gloating so much. The grogs seem to have been arguing all along that it was a waste of time to mess with a "winning formula" and that Josh could have spent a lot of time better by focussing on encounter design instead of going over the minutae of tweaking D&D mechanics endlessly.

It was a sperging minority that included me that wanted more interesting mechanics than BG

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Honestly Infinitron it's you like you view RPGs as adventure games with branching storylines and combat encounters instead of puzzles, it's a shallow viewpoint.

 

[vivec]

I have wanted to say this since quite a bit of time, but I have had none.

The real problems with D&D are (from the point of view of a dungeon master), the difficulty in weaving a good story around the leveling and the ridiculous all day, everyday spell casting of certain classes, like the warlock. Add to that the tying of abilities to the level, like the HPs, the ABs and you have a the problem with any serious realism. And mind you, I love D&D; its spells and monsters are the biggest assets a gamemaster can ask for when designing cool dungeons and battles and scenarios.

Any serious attempt that addresses problems in D&D has to focus on the above-mentioned issues. Has JS done that? That is the question people here should be asking.

 

[FeelTheRads]

According to you, nothing—systemic stuff isn't important.

The typical apologist bullshit.

1. trash combat worst thing ever > PoE has trash combat > trash combat is essential in RPGs and also it's the fault of grogs because they can't let go
2. PoE's system will be best ever > PoE's system is shit > systems don't actually matter

1 + 2 = PoE 2 will be much better.

 

[Infinitron]

Of course systems matter, they factor heavily into moment-to-moment gameplay and flow of the game, especially in a combat heavy one. They're not some unimportant elements of the game you can abstract.

This is how I look at things re: PoE's system and systems in general.

IMO, PoE's system can be described as essentially a 3E/4E D&D hybrid plus Sawyer tweaks.

First, I think PoE's solid foundations in RPG design have gone under-recognized. People look at it and see a horrendous mutilation of the AD&D they remember from Baldur's Gate, rather than a game that follows many of the same steps that WotC themselves did in the 2000s. It's easy to see why - we never got a proper tactical RTwP 3rd or 4th Edition D&D game in the 2000s (IWD2 was an easily ignored, partially implemented black sheep of a game, and NWN2's combat was a joke). There's no really good frame of reference for properly evaluating what Sawyer did with his systems design tweaks.

But, more to the point of this discussion, I think systems are moderately important to an RPG's quality. I think they're especially important for replayability. You play the game once, you're mostly thinking about the content. Play it again, now you're looking more at how you can tweak your experience via the systems. But that's looking at the system as a whole. As I said, PoE's system isn't just Sawyer tweaks. It's that D&D foundation PLUS the tweaks. The tweaks alone, IMO, just don't really matter that much. They're quality-of-life stuff that people have obsessed about to a disproportionate degree.

 

[Volrath]

NWN2 was a lot more fun to play than Pillows

 

[Starwars]

NWN2 was a lot more fun to play than Pillows

 

[Cadmus]

bullshit, maybe not the exact system details but the systems are what made the game fucking boring to me (+the shit writing). System - shit level cap, system - shit items, system - shit character progress, system - clusterfuck combat. The story was kinda ok, maybe better than Div: OS but I love that game to death because of its systems and how fun the moment to moment gameplay is, especially the combat. I'd even say both games have about the same amount of it but in one it's a fucking chore and in another it's a fun creative outlet and experimentation.

 

[Prime Junta]

NWN2 was a lot more fun to play than Pillows

Every once in a while I fire up MotB because the story is so fucking awesome. I sometimes make it all the way to Mulsantir before going ohgodnopleasestop. Because of the gameplay.

 

[Kem0sabe]

This is how I look at things re: PoE's system and systems in general.

IMO, PoE's system can be described as essentially a 3E/4E D&D hybrid plus Sawyer tweaks.

First, I think PoE's solid foundations in RPG design have gone under-recognized. People look at it and see a horrendous mutilation of the AD&D they remember from Baldur's Gate, rather than a game that follows many of the same steps that WotC themselves did in the 2000s. It's easy to see why - we never got a proper tactical RTwP 3rd or 4th Edition D&D game in the 2000s (IWD2 was an easily ignored, partially implemented black sheep of a game, and NWN2's combat was a joke). There's no really good frame of reference for properly evaluating what Sawyer did with his systems design tweaks.

But, more to the point of this discussion, I think systems are moderately important to an RPG's quality. I think they're especially important for replayability. You play the game once, you're mostly thinking about the content. Play it again, now you're looking more at how you can tweak your experience via the systems. But that's looking at the system as a whole. As I said, PoE's system isn't just Sawyer tweaks. It's that D&D foundation PLUS the tweaks. The tweaks alone, IMO, just don't really matter that much. They're quality-of-life stuff that people have obsessed about to a disproportionate degree.

PoE systems didn't bring anything of worth to the table, the skill system was done better in Fallout, it was missing a fun perk system, the crafting system was shit and only allowed you to truly craft consumables, the classes all felt gimped, the engagement system was an abomination, the skill checks were done better and more frequently with real consequences in new Vegas.

What exactly did PoE add to the genre in terms of worthwhile mechanics?

 

[Grauken]

I remember Knights of the Chalice because the combat system. Now ask me about its story

 

[Veelq]

NWN2 was a lot more fun to play than Pillows

Every once in a while I fire up MotB because the story is so fucking awesome. I sometimes make it all the way to Mulsantir before going ohgodnopleasestop. Because of the gameplay.

Yeah exacly, i think what Infinitron is saying is true, if PoE would end up as something like MotB - everyone would be happy here. And we all know it was based on NWN2, so it was a great story that made the game, not systems.
The same way Witcher 3 for me is a good game - great story, good writing but horrendeus systems, i hate them so much but i voted for that game as my best for last year.
And Blaine is also right, we know he likes Underrail, its a game with very good systems implemented. And i voted for it too because as a whole its worth playing, its great.

Pillars was mediocre at both of this things, but i think it would be better for the game if they went MotB-like story focused design.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Systems don't matter because RTwP is shit regardless.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

You play the game once, you're mostly thinking about the content.

I think that's more a function of crpg's generally having less than stellar mechanics : Excidium II: than anything else. I'm fairly sure that whenever I played games where great mechanics were the centerpiece for the first time (Thief 2, JA2, Max Payne 2), I was mostly playing around with these mechanics; things like story were mostly background noise that I got more into (if at all) when/if I tried them a second time.

Besides, Sawyer has been all about systems since he was Van Buren lead: it's all the guy talks about (or rather all we want him to talk about unless we care about Welsh pronunciation). We're interested in games he's lead on because we want to know what he's trying out systems-wise, just like we'd be interested in the different roleplaying approaches in games where Cain is lead, and story and setting in a game where Avellone is lead.

 

[Drowed]

To this day I still try to understand what people see as "good" in the BG series that should be emulated by games such as POE. Because I tried to finish the game several times, but in all of them I got bored out of my mind. Both in BG as for BG2. Well, POE is nothing that deserves that much attention (although I have enjoyed Durance's ramblings, and a bit of GM), it managed to hold my attention enough for me to finish the game, and then I came back to finish White March.

At worst, I would say that POE is much more tolerable than BG. At best, I'd say it's vaguely/kinda interesting sometimes.

 

[ArchAngel]

To this day I still try to understand what people see as "good" in the BG series that should be emulated by games such as POE. Because I tried to finish the game several times, but in all of them I got bored out of my mind. Both in BG as for BG2. Well, POE is nothing that deserves that much attention (although I have enjoyed Durance's ramblings, and a bit of GM), it managed to hold my attention enough for me to finish the game, and then I came back to finish White March.

At worst, I would say that POE is much more tolerable than BG. At best, I'd say it's vaguely/kinda interesting sometimes.

Not everyone enjoys adventure games. Or interactive movies like Last of Us. But they got an audience like you.

 

[TigerKnee]

To this day I still try to understand what people see as "good" in the BG series that should be emulated by games such as POE.

Something about mage duels and hard counters, I dunno.

 

[Infinitron]

I think that's more a function of crpg's generally having less than stellar mechanics

There's some truth to that. I would say that this particular kind of RPG has an inherently reduced scope for mechanics. It's a genre where you click on dialogue options and enemies on static prerendered backgrounds. That's the reason why the skill system struggles to find a place.

 

[Space Insect]

To this day I still try to understand what people see as "good" in the BG series that should be emulated by games such as POE. Because I tried to finish the game several times, but in all of them I got bored out of my mind. Both in BG as for BG2. Well, POE is nothing that deserves that much attention (although I have enjoyed Durance's ramblings, and a bit of GM), it managed to hold my attention enough for me to finish the game, and then I came back to finish White March.

At worst, I would say that POE is much more tolerable than BG. At best, I'd say it's vaguely/kinda interesting sometimes.

I'd say that BG2 is just a game that somehow worked as a sum of its elements. The combat isn't incredible, the story and writing isn't very good, but somehow when you put all of that together it just works.

 

[Drowed]

Not everyone enjoys adventure games. Or interactive movies like Last of Us. But they got an audience like you.

And BG isn't one? It's exactly what I felt when I played it. Taking the horrendous pathfinding aside, the game basically plays itself. "Buff", "Kill", "Rest". Repeat ad nauseaum.

You never, ever have to think. There is no "game" there. The only thing left is the story, which is, as anyone with half a brain can see, horrifying.

At least in POE the story is just uninspired. Your neurons don't begin to liquefy and fall by your ears.

 

[ArchAngel]

Not everyone enjoys adventure games. Or interactive movies like Last of Us. But they got an audience like you.

And BG isn't one? It's exactly what I felt when I played it. Taking the horrendous pathfinding aside, the game basically plays itself. "Buff", "Kill", "Rest". Repeat ad nauseaum.

You never, ever have to think. There is no "game" there. The only thing left the story, which is, as anyone with half a brain can see, horrifying.

At least in POE the story is just uninspired. Your neurons don't begin to liquefy and fall by your ears.

I guess you never ran into Sirines or Basilisks in that game. Or random bandit encounter while lvl 1
Or you never tried to fight a Clay Golem with standard weapons...

 

[Space Insect]

Not everyone enjoys adventure games. Or interactive movies like Last of Us. But they got an audience like you.

And BG isn't one? It's exactly what I felt when I played it. Taking the horrendous pathfinding aside, the game basically plays itself. "Buff", "Kill", "Rest". Repeat ad nauseaum.

You never, ever have to think. There is no "game" there. The only thing left is the story, which is, as anyone with half a brain can see, horrifying.

At least in POE the story is just uninspired. Your neurons don't begin to liquefy and fall by your ears.

How far have you played in BG2 to never have to think?

 

[ArchAngel]

To this day I still try to understand what people see as "good" in the BG series that should be emulated by games such as POE. Because I tried to finish the game several times, but in all of them I got bored out of my mind. Both in BG as for BG2. Well, POE is nothing that deserves that much attention (although I have enjoyed Durance's ramblings, and a bit of GM), it managed to hold my attention enough for me to finish the game, and then I came back to finish White March.

At worst, I would say that POE is much more tolerable than BG. At best, I'd say it's vaguely/kinda interesting sometimes.

I'd say that BG2 is just a game that somehow worked as a sum of its elements. The combat isn't incredible, the story and writing isn't very good, but somehow when you put all of that together it just works.

I'd say that Space Insect is just a guy that somehow worked as a sum of its parent's failures. His mother was ugly, his father was retarted, but somehow when fate put them together he barely just works.

Spoiler

That is for bashing BG2

 

[Space Insect]

To this day I still try to understand what people see as "good" in the BG series that should be emulated by games such as POE. Because I tried to finish the game several times, but in all of them I got bored out of my mind. Both in BG as for BG2. Well, POE is nothing that deserves that much attention (although I have enjoyed Durance's ramblings, and a bit of GM), it managed to hold my attention enough for me to finish the game, and then I came back to finish White March.

At worst, I would say that POE is much more tolerable than BG. At best, I'd say it's vaguely/kinda interesting sometimes.

I'd say that BG2 is just a game that somehow worked as a sum of its elements. The combat isn't incredible, the story and writing isn't very good, but somehow when you put all of that together it just works.

I'd say that Space Insect is just a guy that somehow worked as a sum of its parent's failures. His mother was ugly, his father was retarted, but somehow when fate put them together he barely just works.

Spoiler

That is for bashing BG2

Oh, I'm so sorry, I should have used simpler words so that a possibly retarded person like you could understand.

 

[Zeriel]

Grogs gonna grog.

You like blobbers. Aren't you a grog?

Or maybe you meant this in a fond way, in which case I take it back.