Broken Age - Double Fine's Kickstarter Adventure Game

[toro]

Lets do some math. You need 1 million to make your game, lets see how much the developer makes if the game makes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 million in revenue with Indie-Fund.

1 million - you pay back the fund and got to make your game.
2 million - you pay back the fund plus 250k, you net 750k.
3 million - you pay back the fund plus 500k, you net 1.5 million.
4 million - you pay back the fund plus 750k, you net 2.25 million.
5 million - you pay back the fund double, you net 3 million.

Now lets look at a publishing deal where you earn 25% royalties on gross revenue (from what I know, I believe this to be an extremely generous contract compared to real publishing deals).

1 million - you've paid back 250k of the original investment, you still owe 750k from any future revenue
2 million - you've paid back 500k of the original investment, you still owe 500k from any future revenue
3 million - you've paid back 750k of the original investment, you still owe 250k from any future revenue
4 million - you've paid back the original investment
5 million - you've paid back the original investment, and earned 250k from royalties, just 3 more deals like this and you can pay for your own game!

With Indie Fund Loan:
1 million - you pay back the fund, you still have 1 million debt.
2 million - you pay back the fund, you have no profit and no debt.
3 million - you pay back the fund, you net 1 million.
4 million - you pay back the fund, you net 2 millions.
5 million - you pay back the fund, you net 3 millions.

But you need funds to actually publish the game and do an advertisement campaign, therefore the calculation should look like this:

With Indie Fund Loan (+500k penalty for all the extra necessary shit for self-publishing):
1 million - you pay back the fund, you still have 1.5 million debt.
2 million - you pay back the fund, you still have 500k debt.
3 million - you pay back the fund, you net 500k.
4 million - you pay back the fund, you net 1.5 millions.
5 million - you pay back the fund, you net 2.5 millions.

With a publisher (which you'll be surprised to find out that it actually provides some very important services):
1 million - you pay back the original investment, you have no profit and no debt.
2 million - you pay back the original investment, you net 250k.
3 million - you pay back the original investment, you net 500k.
4 million - you pay back the original investment, you net 750k.
5 million - you pay back the original investment, you net 1 million.

In this case DoubleFine has a small chances to reach those juicy numbers because:
(1) They are not a publisher and far from a competent one,
(2) They burned out 3+ millions with nothing special to show,
(3) They already have a profit leach aka the documentary company,
(4) The people which pre-ordered on KS will not buy the game again,
(5) They don't deserve the privilege to create their own games,
(6) If they flop with this game and their KS credentials go to shit, they will be at the publisher's mercy.

But I give you that at first glance the self-publishing deal seems to be the better deal, however the risks in case of a flop are also much higher than when working with a publisher. I know that my statement "Even a publisher is preferable to this kind of retarded shit." rubs you the wrong way, but bottom line is that it really depends on the situation. DoubleFine has a privileged position for the moment, but riding the waves of nostalgia will end eventually.

 

[tuluse]

toro, the extra 100% repayment isn't debt, it goes away after 2 years. And your publisher math is wrong, you only pay back the investment from your share of the revenue.

 

[Dexter]

Pretty sure is not.

A publisher would completely fund the game development and an advertisement campaign, it would enforce some accountability and most likely would pay royalties on each piece sold after he is recuperating the invested money.
Also it would most definitely try to get the IP or mess with it, but that's not a risk in this case cause there is no great quality IP to be ruined.

And what do we have here: "Once the game is released, you first pay back the investment and then share 25%of the revenue, until we double the initial investment, or until 2 years after the initial launch date, whichever comes first"
Take a credit from a bank at a rate of 5% per year and it would take 15 years for that debt to double itself.
Take a credit from a bank at a rate of 10% per year and it would take 8 years for that debt to double itself.
Take a credit from Indie Fund Loan (pseudo-sharks) and that the debt doubles in an instant.

This is a loan-shark type of contract or a sub-prime type of lending which usually ends in someone loosing a lot of money.
If the game has no profit, the Indie Fund Loan can go fuck itself (*including Tim). If the game is successful, Tim can go fuck himself.

Even a publisher is preferable to this kind of retarded shit.

You are .

No bank would loan that kind of money to a Indie game developer (or even any game developer) without serious collateral.

Publishers won't even stand up in the morning without devouring an IP and sole distribution rights. And you need to pay them back fully.
Publishing deals are an extremely bad deal you will get like 15% of the final sales and will have to even repay them from those earnings: http://www.obscure.co.uk/blog/2007/02/26/the-myth-of-the-developer-royalty/

Pop quiz – Your game costs $1 million to develop (funded by the publisher in the form of an advance against royalties).
Your publisher gets $10 (net sales) for every copy of your game they sell.
You (the developer) get 15% of net sales.
If your game sells 500,000 units how much money do you get in royalties?

The math is simple. 15% of $10, multiplied by 500,000 equals zero.

OK yes it is a trick question. The math obviously doesn’t add up to zero but none the less that is how much money you would actually receive in royalties on a standard publisher funded deal. This is because of the phrase “Fully recoupable but non-refundable advance against royalties” which appears in virtually all development contracts.
Here’s how it works….

• The publisher loans you $1 million spread over 18 months while you make your game. – this is a recoupable advance against future royalties, which means you have to pay it back.
• When the game is finished the publisher sells it and, after costs are deducted they end up with $10 (net sales).
• Your 15% of net sales is equal $1.50 so, if your game has sold 500,000 units (which isn’t bad), then you have earned $750,000 in royalties…. unfortunately you owe the publisher $1 million so all of your royalties go back to them.
• You still owe the publisher $250,000 so clearly this was a bad deal for the publisher…. except that it wasn’t.

In exchange for the $250,000 (the money you didn’t repay) the publisher earned $5 Million (their 85% of net sales = $4,250,000 + the $750,000 you paid back). Of course that is a slightly simplified model and despite the fact that many of the publishers costs are deducted earlier (wholesale minus costs = net sales) lets assume that they spend another $1.5 million on marketing, overheads and other sundries. So, they investeda total of $2 million, you repaid $750,000 of that, so they have actually spent $1,250,000 and in return they earned $4.25 million.

Meanwhile you spent $750,000 making the game and have a paper debt of -$250,000. You don’t actually have to pay that money back but the next $250,000 of royalties will go straight back to the publisher. If you do sell enough units to recoup the advance (666,667 units should do it) you have now spent $1 million dollars making a game, earned zero profit and the publisher has over $6 million.
So what’s the solution?

There are various options but the simplest is to build 20% profit into your development costs and manage your project properly. Ensure that if the publisher requires changes that they pay for them and that you don’t spend your profit making the game better in the hope of making more in royalties. Yes, it is possible for a game to sell millions of units and for the developer to make millions, even under a recoupment deal – but how many games are released each year (in excess of 3,000) and how many make the huge numbers (one, maybe two)? You need to run your company on the assumption that it will conform to the rule and not in the hope that it will be the exception. You need to make your game based on a plan that will generate real profit, not mythical royalties.

Often for commissioned work with an IP your studio doesn't own you only get a concrete fee beforehand and there might be some royalty clauses in the contract for sales target reached or "Metacritic score" (see what happened to Obsidian) and you might not get any additional money at all.

Indie developers aren't stupid, you are.
And the Indie fund is extremely gracious and has already funded a lot of games: http://indie-fund.com/games/

The Swapper recouped the investment in less than 2 days: http://indie-fund.com/2013/06/the-swapper-recoups-in-less-than-two-days/
Antichamber recouped the investment less than an hour after launch: http://indie-fund.com/2013/01/antichamber/
Dear Esther within 5 hours after launch: http://indie-fund.com/2012/02/dear-esther-has-reached-profitability-it-took-5-hours-30-minutes/

Here's what they achieved so far:

• Monaco – success
• Shadow Physics – cancelled
• Faraway – TBD (not yet released)
• The Swapper – success
• Antichamber – success
• Q.U.B.E. – success
• Dear Esther – success
• The Splatters – TBD (not yet released)
• Mushroom 11 – TBD (not yet released)
• Panoramical – TBD (not yet released)
• Kachina – TBD (not yet released)

 

[toro]

No bank would loan that kind of money to a Indie game developer (or even any game developer) without serious collateral.

That's not without a reason.

Publishers won't even stand up in the morning without devouring an IP and sole distribution rights. And you need to pay them back fully.
Publishing deals are an extremely bad deal you will get like 15% of the final sales and will have to even repay them from those earnings: http://www.obscure.co.uk/blog/2007/02/26/the-myth-of-the-developer-royalty/

Bullshit. Old rules don't apply anymore to electronic-publishing.
Valve's cut on Steam is like 30%, but I guess that's too much for an indie.

And in that article a developer is butt hurt about the publisher wanting to recoup his investment. What a shock. Please.

And the Indie fund is extremely gracious and has already funded a lot of games: http://indie-fund.com/games/

The Swapper recouped the investment in less than 2 days: http://indie-fund.com/2013/06/the-swapper-recoups-in-less-than-two-days/
Antichamber recouped the investment less than an hour after launch: http://indie-fund.com/2013/01/antichamber/
Dear Esther within 5 hours after launch: http://indie-fund.com/2012/02/dear-esther-has-reached-profitability-it-took-5-hours-30-minutes/

Here's what they achieved so far:

• Monaco – success
• Shadow Physics – cancelled
• Faraway – TBD (not yet released)
• The Swapper – success
• Antichamber – success
• Q.U.B.E. – success
• Dear Esther – success
• The Splatters – TBD (not yet released)
• Mushroom 11 – TBD (not yet released)
• Panoramical – TBD (not yet released)
• Kachina – TBD (not yet released)

Despite these success stories there is so not much information about what amount of funding was involved in each case. Strange.
And you fail to notice that neither one of these games used KS.

 

[ghostdog]

Please niggas... this thread has become broken loan : pay the double fine.

 

[Infinitron]

toro's doing a decent Skyway impersonation ITT

 

[Metro]

I'm sorry, what's the complaint here? Is this IndieFund somehow obligated to give more favorable interest rates? Double Fine could have gotten their money elsewhere. Fuck if I were the one loaning Derplefine money I'd ask for a much higher RoI after seeing the massive joke that is their MAAAAAAAAAAASIVE CHALICE Kickstarter. If you walked into a lender's office with that kind of pitch they'd throw you out on your ass.

 

[tuluse]

Well interest rates are regulated, with the highest legally allowed rate something like 30% APR. I think the 2 year limit is what keeps this legal.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Valve's cut on Steam is like 30%, but I guess that's too much for an indie.

Valve doesn't fund your game. They just distribute it.

And in that article a developer is butt hurt about the publisher wanting to recoup his investment. What a shock. Please.

Yes, and it gets a whole lot more than the investment while the developer gets shit. Everything is great, the developer is just butthurt.

toro's doing a decent Skyway impersonation ITT

We only need raw now to tell us how publishers are the best thing ever.

 

[toro]

Valve's cut on Steam is like 30%, but I guess that's too much for an indie.

Valve doesn't fund your game. They just distribute it.

You brought royalties into the discussion. I just pointed out that 25% max is no longer the rule. Can you spin it one more time?

And in that article a developer is butt hurt about the publisher wanting to recoup his investment. What a shock. Please.

Yes, and it gets a whole lot more than the investment while the developer gets shit. Everything is great, the developer is just butthurt.

I did not say that everything is great and you should drop the rose-tinted glasses.

toro's doing a decent Skyway impersonation ITT

We only need raw now to tell us how publishers are the best thing ever.

Nobody claimed that publishers are the best thing ever, but in my opinion working with a professional publisher can be a great asset for the future if used properly.
A game dev start-up company working with a publisher would learn how to do things properly while getting paid. Success doesn't resume just to money as you put it and in reality the accumulated know-how is often more valuable than the short term profit.

 

[Spectacle]

Publishers won't even stand up in the morning without devouring an IP and sole distribution rights. And you need to pay them back fully.
Publishing deals are an extremely bad deal you will get like 15% of the final sales and will have to even repay them from those earnings: http://www.obscure.co.uk/blog/2007/02/26/the-myth-of-the-developer-royalty/

Bullshit. Old rules don't apply anymore to electronic-publishing.
Valve's cut on Steam is like 30%, but I guess that's too much for an indie.

Valve is a retailer, not a publisher. (Except for their own games, of course). That 30% cut is in addition to what the publisher takes.

 

[DalekFlay]

I still think that perhaps they would've made a better game with the original 400k they asked for...

This is my opinion in a nutshell. They would have made a simple classic style point and click like Primordia and would have focused on the script. It would have got a ton of hype and sold well and made them a lot of money. It also would have got a lot of publicity for the genre and likely been out on time.

In contrast now they had a ton of motivation to be ambitious, overshot their wad, borrowed more money and are releasing something that doesn't at all look like what I expected.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[toro]

I lost interest in this project (except the occasional rage), but I still get backer updates from these DumbFucks.

Project Update #23: A Sneak Peek at "Double Fine's 90,000 Friends"

​

For backers only, ​

Posted by Double Fine Productions​

​

Hello, backers!
Remember when we asked you to submit videos of yourselves talking about the Double Fine Adventure campaign and what it means to you? Well, tomorrow morning at 10am Pacific Time (5pm GMT) at the Horizon indie event run by Venus Patrol, we will be debuting "Double Fine's 90,000 Friends," 2 Player Productions' creation based on those videos!
Well, it won't quite be a debut. Because the real debut is right now, just for backers! Please don't leak this until tomorrow—but you know the drill already. Here you go:
http://vimeo.com/68164131
(You'll need to click through to this update on the Kickstarter site to watch the video—you can't watch it in this email or on Vimeo.com)
You can also watch this video on the backer site or the backer forum if you have access. If you don't have access, see below.
But that's not the only exciting Broken Age news. The game has been making a lot of progress—here's a recent update from Greg:
Project Update

THE SPACESHIP IS OFFICIALLY IN ALPHA!! And dudes, it’s looking amaaaaaazing. I have proof!

There was a lot of great work from all disciplines to make this happen. And high fives. There have been a lot of high fives.
We’re now at the end of the first week of a sprint that is mostly focused back on the girl’s world. We’re working on the intro section in the girl’s village and eventually will be getting back to the Maiden’s Feast (which was actually the first section we worked on!). Additionally, Bagel is beginning early concepts and a style guide for one of the later girl world locations.
Another exciting development! Our casting director, the amazing Khris Brown, is currently talking to agents about casting and will be presenting us with audition tapes a week from Monday. The hope is to have our first VO session in early July.
We’re also starting to get a grasp on what the new schedule post-rescoping is looking like. We’re pretty much settled on a rough plan, and Matt and I are digging into the details. Hopefully soon we’ll get those post-it notes back up on the wall. That will feel nice!
I want to say thanks again for all the amazing videos you guys submitted for the E3 video. It turned out really great! At 11:00 PDT when the public screening is over, you all can flip your personal backer videos public so the world can see your beautiful faces. GONNA BE AWESOME!
Documentary Status

Most recently, 2 Player has been finishing up the backer video, and they've also been helping out on the MASSIVE CHALICE Kickstarter—but they're still hard at work on the main Broken Age documentary, of course! Here's an update from Paul Levering of 2PP on their schedule:
Hey everybody, sorry for the delay on episode 10! We’re currently jamming away on it and the expected release date is June 21 (on or around there). I believe it was mentioned that this episode posed some unique challenges that require us to shoot for longer than usual, and it’s been quite the undertaking to put it together. We also had support for the Humble Bundle and MASSIVE CHALICE to handle, but that extra time allowed the DFA story to develop enough that we could close that thread out in a single episode.
Currently everyone is working at full capacity! Paul Owens continues to build episode 10, Asif has been working on the backer video, Marc is finishing up a new Sidequest, and I’m producing video content for the MASSIVE CHALICE campaign.
We’re comfortable with our ability to simultaneously support both DFA and MC, and we’re taking steps to adjust and improve our workflow. There are hurdles in place that currently are slowing us down, but hopefully in the coming month or so we can have those out of the way! We’ll let you guys know when the new plan swings into effect!
Currently there is a ton of content being released for MASSIVE CHALICE, so if you’re interested in learning more about Brad and some other team members at Double Fine, swing by the Kickstarter and check them out! These videos are much longer and simpler than what you’ve come to expect from the DFA material, and we’re planning to find ways to differentiate the two series. MC will likely be more driven by technical development, something many of you have been asking for but is difficult to get across with DFA.
Thanks for your patience, we’re looking forward to giving you episode 10! It’s going to be a big one.
MASSIVE CHALICE

As Paul mentioned above, the MASSIVE CHALICE Kickstarter video content is turning out a little bit different than the Broken Age material. Here are a couple examples that may help tide you over until the next Broken Age episode:

• Design chat with project lead Brad Muir and designer John Swisshelm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5xC6FZbvk0s

• Concept art commentary with art director Mark Hamer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2Q1NWrfLiLM
There's plenty more video and audio content over on the MASSIVE CHALICE Kickstarter page updates if you're interested. We'll continue to experiment with video formats and content for the MASSIVE CHALICE campaign—we and 2PP want to make sure it's different to the Broken Age content in a way that's interesting and valuable! We figure the more aspects of game development we can share with the world, the better.
FORUM ACCESS REMINDER

Don't forget--to access private backer content, you need proper access. If you don't have it, make sure to register on the Double Fine Action Forums using the email address associated with your Kickstarter account. (Once you're registered, you can choose to read the content on the forums or on the site proper.) Register here.
Once you sign up and confirm your membership, it can take up to a full business day for the system to authorize you as a backer, so give it a bit of time. If it's been a couple days and you still don't have access, email support@doublefine.com
There are a few ways to easily keep up with content updates:

• Bookmark and check the backer landing page
• Subscribe to the backer RSS feed
• Subscribe to the Table of Contents thread on the forums

Okay, hope you guys enjoyed all that! Stay tuned for Episode 10! It will be worth the wait.

It’s looking amaaaaaazing! GONNA BE AWESOME! MAAAASIVE! MAJESTIC!!!/mind blown

EDIT: For the first time in months I actually saw a mouse pointer in that emotionally manipulative documentary. It's weird.

 

[ghostdog]

When I watch Double FIne documentaries I'm always wearing my tin-foil top hat, to prevent emotional manipulation and mind reading.

 

[Volrath]

I find it ironic that the company who started the videogame kickstarter craze will also be the one that ends it.

 

[J_C]

I find it ironic that the company who started the videogame kickstarter craze will also be the one that ends it.

Why would it end it for fucks sake? They will have a successfull kickstarter, even if they won't get 2 millions. This will change nothing. The only thing happened is DF got some bad rep on Codex. And we all now the Codex has zero influence on the gaming industry in general.

 

[Volrath]

I find it ironic that the company who started the videogame kickstarter craze will also be the one that ends it.

Why would it end it for fucks sake? They will have a successfull kickstarter, even if they won't get 2 millions. This will change nothing. The only thing happened is DF got some bad rep on Codex. And we all now the Codex has zero influence on the gaming industry in general.

They'll end up releasing two very mediocre buggy shit games or even worse release nothing at all.

 

[J_C]

I find it ironic that the company who started the videogame kickstarter craze will also be the one that ends it.

Why would it end it for fucks sake? They will have a successfull kickstarter, even if they won't get 2 millions. This will change nothing. The only thing happened is DF got some bad rep on Codex. And we all now the Codex has zero influence on the gaming industry in general.

They'll end up releasing two very mediocre buggy shit games or even worse release nothing at all.

Broken Age: game can be very good, we don't know it yet. And you not liking it is =/= shit
Massive Chalice: Kickstarter is bad, but this doesn't mean the game will be bad. It still could be, but we still don't know it.

And even if both of those games are shit, it still won't end the KS craze IMO, because there are several good KS games, which already had been released.

 

[Blackthorne]

I find it ironic that the company who started the videogame kickstarter craze will also be the one that ends it.

And we all know the Codex has zero influence on the gaming industry in general.

SIDEBAR - I can't say that's true - Infamous Quests and QFI got a lot of support from the Codex - to a big publisher, it probably means dick, but to a small independent developer like us, it's a big deal, and we appreciate it and don't take it for granted. Not everything is always about the bigger, faceless publishers and creators. There's a lot of small ones out there where support from anyone, when it's fervent and honest, helps you to create your works.

ON TOPIC - I'm really reserving my judgement for Broken Age until it comes out, because honestly - I have NO FUCKING IDEA what to expect.

Bt

 

[J_C]

I find it ironic that the company who started the videogame kickstarter craze will also be the one that ends it.

And we all know the Codex has zero influence on the gaming industry in general.

SIDEBAR - I can't say that's true - Infamous Quests and QFI got a lot of support from the Codex - to a big publisher, it probably means dick, but to a small independent developer like us, it's a big deal, and we appreciate it and don't take it for granted. Not everything is always about the bigger, faceless publishers and creators. There's a lot of small ones out there where support from anyone, when it's fervent and honest, helps you to create your works.

All right, that is fair. For a small dev like you, or like the devs of Eisenwald, our contribution means something, and I'm happy about it. Still Double Fine getting bad rep on the Codex doesn't mean anything for them or the industry. I guess DF don't even know we exist.

 

[DalekFlay]

They'll end up releasing two very mediocre buggy shit games or even worse release nothing at all.

I think with Broken Age there will be a lot of people disappointed, true. However judging from mainstream websites' comment sections anyone calling Broken Age out as not really what we signed up for is getting shouted down by the "Double Fine is awesome and this is art" crowd. Even on here at least half the people are into the look and style.

So... probably not the crisis you expect, just a lot of forum talk about the game being X, Y and Z, same as every other game.

 

[Frusciante]

They'll end up releasing two very mediocre buggy shit games or even worse release nothing at all.

I think with Broken Age there will be a lot of people disappointed, true. However judging from mainstream websites' comment sections anyone calling Broken Age out as not really what we signed up for is getting shouted down by the "Double Fine is awesome and this is art" crowd. Even on here at least half the people are into the look and style.

So... probably not the crisis you expect, just a lot of forum talk about the game being X, Y and Z, same as every other game.

How did this game suddenly became a dissapointment on the codex? Honestly I think the documentary is great and the game looks fine to me.

Since this is an adventure game, the only thing we can judge now anyway is the art style. Personally I think the art style is competent and original. So all in all I'm still optimisstic about this game.

 

[J_C]

They'll end up releasing two very mediocre buggy shit games or even worse release nothing at all.

I think with Broken Age there will be a lot of people disappointed, true. However judging from mainstream websites' comment sections anyone calling Broken Age out as not really what we signed up for is getting shouted down by the "Double Fine is awesome and this is art" crowd. Even on here at least half the people are into the look and style.

So... probably not the crisis you expect, just a lot of forum talk about the game being X, Y and Z, same as every other game.

How did this game suddenly became a dissapointment on the codex? Honestly I think the documentary is great and the game looks fine to me.

Since this is an adventure game, the only thing we can judge now anyway is the art style. Personally I think the art style is competent and original. So all in all I'm still optimisstic about this game.

People saw the art style and didn't like it. In their book, this means shit. Yeah, retarded, but we are on the Codex afterall. Also because they didn't show much gameplay, they think it will be shit. Again, retarded, but this is the Codex.

 

[evdk]

People saw the art style and didn't like it. In their book, this means shit. Yeah, retarded, but we are on the Codex afterall. Also because they didn't show much gameplay, they think it will be shit. Again, retarded, but this is the Codex.

People had different expectations based on Tim's Lucas Arts work, true, but I don't think that mere dislike for the art direction is the source of the dislike - the lack of any solid gameplay examples is mch more damning, as well as the fact that the game appears to be targeted at children and DF inability to manage finances properly.

And Metro just doesn't like hipsters.

 

[Infinitron]

DF inability to manage finances properly.

I'm not sure if this is actually true, or if (for instance) inXile have just kept more quiet about their alternate sources of funding.

But yeah, basically, Double Fine have a different view of Kickstarter than the companies that came after them. For Double Fine, Kickstarter is just one way to gather funding for their next "dream game". For inXile and Obsidian, it's the way to make the game the Kickstarter backers want.