Preview But wait! There is more...

[Ander Vinz]

Could you join the Mystic Dawn and destroy the world? Could you fuck.

No u cudn't fuck.

This is the main reason why Codex hates Oblivion. 'Cause in Fallout you could.

 

[AnalogKid]

All right, I'm going to step up and call bullshit on this, VD. It's not that I think F3 will be anything like what I would like, nor that it will be any fun on it's own merit, but there seems to be plenty of absolutely fucking ludicrous stuff to make fun of without being a bit two-faced like this.

Ignoring the setting of megaton (which is silly, granted), the dev quotes all highlight the following gameplay features:

Significant consequences
- Removal of a complete town from the world (or not)
- Permanent alignment with a faction ("evil" developer dude) (or not)
- Future benefits/drawbacks of aligning with that faction (only benefits have been mentioned so far...)
- Option to not make a choice at all, presumably avoiding game content (i.e. not necessarily railroaded linear 2-path plot)

Character complexity
- At least tried with the Sheriff discussion

Just a week ago, all the sniping was at how lame it was that the early info on Megaton didn't describe any alternatives, now you're bitching because they are starting to describe alternatives? WTF???

If you want to bitch about the details described (like your comment about the overseer sending his thugs), that seems fair to me. I happen to agree that Beth seems to "not get it" when it comes to fallout humor/morality/setting. But the other quotes you chose to lampoon in this newspost, and the way you did it, just screams to me of being blinded by bias. I know that Beth has a long history of negative bias proving accurate, but you can't really ream them for providing significant consequences early in the game, can you? At least not yet?

I'm not being an apologist, I'm firmly anti-F3 based on what I know of Beth and what they've said so far. It's just that there's PLENTY else to be nauseated about, and I think it does the Codex's supposed objectivity a disservice to twist EVERY thing into satire, even when those things are obviously the exact TYPES of features that the Codex presumably supports.

 

[Claw]

Flashback, the programmer, insists that it's still not good enough, so he requested another week of tweaking.

But that's pointless! It's just a preview, so we won't say anything negative about it anyway.

I want Flashback's head on a plate.

Are you daft? Then AoD will never be finished!

 

[Rat Keeng]

As far as Megaton goes, it seems like there's a lot of effort going into making one huge motherfucker of a consequence in this one location, which, while not being a bad thing, brings to mind previous hypings from Bethesda about single aspects of their games being awesomesauce, and the rest being horribly lackluster in comparison.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Could you join the Mystic Dawn and destroy the world? Could you fuck.

No u cudn't fuck.

O RLY?

 

[OccupatedVoid]

Could you join the Mystic Dawn and destroy the world? Could you fuck.

No u cudn't fuck.

O RLY?

YA RLY!

 

[ecliptic]

Whenever someone asks me why I think FO3 will suck it, I'm just going to point them here from now on.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

"Omg its Ron Perlmon in the Power ARmor"

 

[Bradylama]

Just a week ago, all the sniping was at how lame it was that the early info on Megaton didn't describe any alternatives, now you're bitching because they are starting to describe alternatives? WTF???

If you want to bitch about the details described (like your comment about the overseer sending his thugs), that seems fair to me. I happen to agree that Beth seems to "not get it" when it comes to fallout humor/morality/setting. But the other quotes you chose to lampoon in this newspost, and the way you did it, just screams to me of being blinded by bias. I know that Beth has a long history of negative bias proving accurate, but you can't really ream them for providing significant consequences early in the game, can you? At least not yet?

First off, we don't even know when in the game the player character actually gets to megaton.

Yes, it seems a bit bassackwards that everybody is all of a sudden griping about the C&C, but they (and VD) are mostly griping about how retarded they are.

An evil land developer in the post-apocalypse that wants to clear out tenants with a nuke is worse logic than the derelicts that can reach critical mass by being set on fire.

The relevance of C&C isn't set on the number of listed brackets, you should know that.

 

[AnalogKid]

First off, we don't even know when in the game the player character actually gets to megaton.

Only the dev's comment about "so, already at this point in the game..." I interpreted that to mean pretty early, but I could be reading too much in to it...

Yes, it seems a bit bassackwards that everybody is all of a sudden griping about the C&C, but they (and VD) are mostly griping about how retarded they are.

An evil land developer in the post-apocalypse that wants to clear out tenants with a nuke is worse logic than the derelicts that can reach critical mass by being set on fire.

I've got no complaints with ridiculing the brain-dead details, but that's not how VD's newspost read to me (more later).

The relevance of C&C isn't set on the number of listed brackets, you should know that.

Agreed, but if you read all the dev quotes in the newspost except the first one about the overseer's thugs, they are the first collection of quotes that actually could give my shrivelled little heart some hope. They're the right KIND of things for devs to be saying, according to my desires and the Codex hivemind. All the other previews had so much lame, stupid shit that I just think VD went overboard on this one, and attacked Beth for trying to do exactly what we want them to. It doesn't read to me like he is attacking the quality of the details (didn't rip on the obvious land developer crap), he jumped on the fact that there were choices! And also that the sheriff might have some complexity about his character!

If someone's been pummeling your nuts for weeks, and then suggests maybe they'll bring a chick in to blow you, that's not the time to bitch about how she doesn't deepthroat properly, you gotta stay focussed on getting them to stop pummeling your nuts, dontcha?

 

[Anaglyph]

They're the right KIND of things for devs to be saying, according to my desires and the Codex hivemind.

Don't know if you followed the build-up to Oblivion's release but one of the things that was said about it was that after the assassination there would be a struggle for power between the various dukes and duchesses and that you'd be able to align yourself with whom you choose in the political struggle and so on... guess how much of that made it into the game?

Bethesda say a lot, and the good (or at least better) stuff is usually hot air. Did you ever read that description of a fight between the PC and a "town bully" that MSFD wrote to illustrate how awesome the revamped combat was going to be? If not you should try and track it down and read it. It's pretty hilarious to read that in light of how the game plays. It also makes it pretty clear that they're a bunch of lying bastards who'll say anything to sell their games.

See, the pain from the pummelling your balls have taken is blinding you to the fact that the chick who isn't very good at blow jobs they've brought you isn't a chick at all but a mangy flee-ridden dog that wants to shove its knot up your arse.

VD mocked that stuff because it's the usual Bethesda bullshit and fully worthy of mockery. Hidden character depths my arse.

And I say this as someone who actually expects to quite enjoy Fallout 3. :D

 

[elander_]

Don't know if you followed the build-up to Oblivion's release but one of the things that was said about it was that after the assassination there would be a struggle for power between the various dukes and duchesses and that you'd be able to align yourself with whom you choose in the political struggle and so on... guess how much of that made it into the game?

It didn't made to the game because they didn't had enough time to finish the diplomatic path. They should have kept their mouth shout and only brag about it when they are sure of what they are talking about. They didn't bother to finish it later with an extension either, seeing how Oblivion sold so well without even being a crpg.

Of course that with that precedent what does it make of everything they say 1 year before the game is released? They probably don't even have the quests scripted on the game and it's still everything on paper.

Bethesda say a lot, and the good (or at least better) stuff is usually hot air. Did you ever read that description of a fight between the PC and a "town bully" that MSFD wrote to illustrate how awesome the revamped combat was going to be? If not you should try and track it down and read it. It's pretty hilarious to read that in light of how the game plays. It also makes it pretty clear that they're a bunch of lying bastards who'll say anything to sell their games.

Maybe that was the way NPCs were fighting at the time. I didn't find that description of combat good. My impression at the time is that it was a very noobe and naive way to setup the AI of npcs and that they would have problems later.

They must have thought that they were so great or that the task was so simple and underestimated the problem. A kick look on the one of the AI doc references would point out the naivety of their approach right away if just they would bother to learn.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/soar/Classes/494/talks/Fps.pdf

Can they really learn with their own mistakes? Things like the nuclear catapult doesn't seam to point in that direction.

However i don't see what is there to criticize with this quest example except for one or another details we only have a vague description of the quest. I'm sure that the sherif wasn't pissed at the player because he told him he had a cool hat. We don't even know what the dialog line was.

My biggest fear is that is just another Fargoth quest to throw sand at people eyes.

 

[obediah]

If I were writing the game, the protagonist's father would be in Megaton. Boom?

Alas, you're not. Bethesda is, so he'll either be the big foozle of the game, or very closely linked to him. And the most of the different endings will simply spawn from a conversation with him at the end of the game. That's going to be so awesome, do I chose my dad or the world? A powerful and original decision!

The West Vault Story plotline doesn't have me too worried so far. This is a vault that's been in use a lot longer than the vaults in the other games, right? So I can imagine a scenario where the residents just gave up on leaving to rebuild and just turned it into your avergage small town US shit hole.

 

[hiciacit]

That's going to be so awesome, do I chose my dad or the world? A powerful and original decision!

Haha. Liam Neeson: "Vault Dweller, I am your father!"

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

I wonder, if you decide to play a female character, will your father be a woman? Now that's what I call plot twist!

 

[Ander Vinz]

I wonder, if you decide to play a female character, will your father be a woman? Now that's what I call plot twist!

Out with it, man. It's beyond stupid.

 

[Vault Dweller]

All right, I'm going to step up and call bullshit on this, VD.

Oh, goodie.

Significant consequences:
- Removal of a complete town from the world (or not)

Check.

- Permanent alignment with a faction ("evil" developer dude) (or not)

Where does it say that?

- Future benefits/drawbacks of aligning with that faction (only benefits have been mentioned so far...)

What benefits? A few quests?

- Option to not make a choice at all, presumably avoiding game content (i.e. not necessarily railroaded linear 2-path plot)

Simply amazing. Oblivion offered plenty of these neutral choices: U DONT HAEV TO DO THIS QEST!!!

Character complexity
- At least tried with the Sheriff discussion

What complexity? You have a sheriff. He wears a cowboy hat. He tells you to play by the rules in his town. That's some seriously original and complex shit, man.

Just a week ago, all the sniping was at how lame it was that the early info on Megaton didn't describe any alternatives, now you're bitching because they are starting to describe alternatives? WTF???

I'm bitching because this quest sucks, with or without alternatives. Granted, it would have sucked more without the alternatives, but what we know so far, doesn't look too good.

But the other quotes you chose to lampoon in this newspost, and the way you did it, just screams to me of being blinded by bias.

Let's see:

There is a town built around a nuke.
It's not a crazy town as the sheriff looks/acts normal.
There is an evil real estate developer in a local bar who offers the first stranger he sees to detonate the nuke.
Because he wants to build something better on this land.
Because there is a shortage of land in wasteland
Even though the land will be contaminated for decades after the explosion, somehow it will be a prime real estate

Makes sense?

Now, ze consequences: wiping out a town gives you access to another place. What, the town was blocking the only road and now that it's gone you can travel it?

Anyway, look at it this way, let's say that when you join a guild in Oblivion, it would close all the other guilds automatically. With all the quests and OMG! items. Would that make it a better game?

 

[Section8]

Could you join the Mystic Dawn and destroy the world? Could you fuck.

Interestingly, you could actually join them, and they'd come up on the faction membership bit of your character "sheet". But, in order to leave the room in which you are initiated, you have to fight your way out. Against your new friends/alllies. Because Bethesduh said so.

Significant consequences
- Removal of a complete town from the world (or not)

Burke: Blow up town, k?
Player: I'ma talk u later. Gonna do everyone else's quests first.

That's the issue here. The previews are all working the angle of "blow up Megaton and you can't do the other quests in Megaton." Big fucking deal. We're all going to bleed it dry before we do the quest. And a truly evil character would slaugher the whole town and take their shit before taking the quest.

Still, it does become a resolution for the slideshow/epilogue. So that's a plus.

- Permanent alignment with a faction ("evil" developer dude) (or not)

I'm cautiously optomistic about this one. While it's a good thing to have a "evil" location like Tenpenny Tower, there is concern for plausibility if it's automagically locked until you complete the quest. There's a big difference between an invite to an otherwise hostile enviroment and something that exists for the sake of a metagaming construct, like alignment or in this case, karma.

- Future benefits/drawbacks of aligning with that faction (only benefits have been mentioned so far...)

Definitely positive as long as it's not like Fallout 2's idiocy with "hurr, as slavers we tattoo a big fucking sign across our foreheads to say we're slavers."

- Option to not make a choice at all, presumably avoiding game content (i.e. not necessarily railroaded linear 2-path plot)

While that's partly positive, it's hard to consider that a logical option given the rewards of choosing a side. Give me a reason to not get involved.

 

[Lumpy]

Anyway, look at it this way, let's say that when you join a guild in Oblivion, it would close all the other guilds automatically. With all the quests and OMG! items. Would that make it a better game?

Considering how everyone bitched about being able to join all the factions it Oblivion... Yes, yes it would.

 

[Section8]

Anyway, look at it this way, let's say that when you join a guild in Oblivion, it would close all the other guilds automatically. With all the quests and OMG! items. Would that make it a better game?

Considering how everyone bitched about being able to join all the factions it Oblivion... Yes, yes it would.

I know you're just being a little obtuse here Lumpy, but...

It shouldn't close all of the other guilds automatically. It should create difficult situations, and increasingly demand the player proves their loyalty one way or another. They player should have to face a difficult decision to pledge their allegiance one way or another, but it would be implausible for any of the guilds to refuse the player unless they had a high standing within a "rival" guild, and that fact was either well known, or established through espionage.

The Mages' Guild would certainly have concerns if the Grandmaster of the Fighters' Guild showed up on their doorstep with an application. If a random lackey from the Fighters' Guild showed up on their doorstep, it's in their best interests to chance the recruit and "lure" them from the Fighters' Guild for their own benefit.

 

[Lumpy]

Yeah, sorry, kinda forgot what it was about.
I don't think that the Fighters Guild and the Mages Guild would be rival guilds. They cover different trades, which have nothing in common. But, realistically, what would stop someone from joining both guilds? The lack of need to do it.
In a real world, a person wouldn't be craving for quests, but rather for the benefits of a guild. Since one supplies him with everything he needs, he'd have no reason to join both of them.
So ideally, a game like Oblivion or Morrowind should not forcefully prevent the player from joining two guilds, but rather, the player should not want to join two of them. How to do that? Dunno.

 

[elander_]

We can even question if being the master of a guild was the right thing to do? In Oblivion your can be the master, boss, whatever of many guilds and then what? There's no gameplay setup for this new role. You can wander around and forget about your guild responsabilities and nothing happens, there's no consequences. Sure it sounds cool but it's just an empty promise without gameplay to sustain it.

 

[Lumpy]

My dream sandbox game would have 3 factions with tons of quests and role-playing opportunities, and stuff to do after you finish advancement - and you shouldn't get to the top position. Alright, that wouldn't be much of a sandbox, but nevertheless.

 

[AnalogKid]

First, Beth really walked into the "hidden depths" cracks. I admit they're funny and, based on past experience, the depths are no doubt very, very well hidden.

Let's see:

There is a town built around a nuke.
It's not a crazy town as the sheriff looks/acts normal.
There is an evil real estate developer in a local bar who offers the first stranger he sees to detonate the nuke.
Because he wants to build something better on this land.
Because there is a shortage of land in wasteland
Even though the land will be contaminated for decades after the explosion, somehow it will be a prime real estate

Makes sense?

Now thats what you should have written in the newspost. All those details are scorn-worthy. But what you wrote was essentially "I can't believe they're giving choices and consequences! How stupid!" Not a critique (or even snide comment) about the lameness of the details.

Now, ze consequences: wiping out a town gives you access to another place. What, the town was blocking the only road and now that it's gone you can travel it?

This is exactly my point about bias. I know for 100% that you can understand the concept of some areas that you can only get involved with if you impress someone that will allow you in. Making friends and networking, baby. Your attacks on the future faction alignments aren't based on details, because they haven't released any details other than that it makes a difference, your attacks are purely based on blind bias and expectation that Beth will be full of as much shit on F3 as it was on Oblivion. I believe that bias to be correct, but I think the proper response is something like "I bet they fuck it up", not "Those dumb fuckers made a consequence for me nuking a town! What dumbfucks!!!"

I mean, really, would you rather that no one in the whole world cares or reacts to you nuking the town? You're just being stupid here.

I've been around long enough to know that no-one ever "wins" an argument with you, VD, so I'm not going to try too hard. I've said my bit and hopefully some of it makes sense.

 

[Koby]

My dream sandbox game would have 3 factions with tons of quests and role-playing opportunities, and stuff to do after you finish advancement - and you shouldn't get to the top position. Alright, that wouldn't be much of a sandbox, but nevertheless.

You know, this is one of my biggest disappointments with MO (didn’t play DF...yet).

Being a head guild of any guild lands you straight into the bowls of politics/power struggles/state affairs and all that. It was a hugely missed opportunity, HUGE.