CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

[MuffinBun]

Thinking that just because a piece of art/entertainment doesn't feature politics, that it is therefor superficial and low quality is the epitome of a mid-wit take.

If anything, it's the opposite. To an extent stories should be experienced in a state of superior control of self, which includes that kind of divine detachment from everyday stuff. They should also help to evoke that state(like in catharsis). From that follows that they are not a place for political hot takes. A good story revolves around something fundamental to life - mortality, bravery, purpose.

But that's also the issue of different understanding of what constitutes the political. When Absinthe mentions politics as something substantial, in the context of Alpha Centauri, he basically means politics for people who are free. So considerations as to which way of organizing the polity would be the most beneficial to its (free) denizens, who expect and enforce that state of things. This is somewhat good, and its good when a storyteller has an understanding of those; every human enterprise relates to those, and not every story has to be profound and fundamental only. But when I say politics is rather bad, what I mean is dependent people politics. Events and characters skewed because of political drivel, stories not for storytelling's sake, but to advance oneself by displays of orthodoxy; so mostly polluting the medium by purposefully doing contemporary politics. Obviously there are "people" who will claim that making a non-political story is some kind of a (meta)political act or a stance. Those people are obsessed tards.

The other thing is writing out of distaste or fear, about that specific thing those refer to; this is still legitimate imo, but lowers the standard of a work in itself a bit. As an activity, and in some different ways, it might be more worthwhile.

 

[Yosharian]

Not having Rusty on ignore is certainly an interesting way to experience the Codex

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I speak only the truth, not my fault if smoothbrains think cyberpunk isn't inherently political because they like certain aspects of it.

The funnier part is actual commie posters pretending it isn't political and smoothbrains actually agreeing with them. Useful idiots indeed.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Not having Rusty on ignore is certainly an interesting way to experience the Codex

Eh he's fine.

 

[Absinthe]

Kjaska, I have no idea how you managed to sink even lower but congratulations. Remember to tip your fedora aggressively too, since clearly you think smugness is an adequate substitute for wit. Anyway, some genres flirt with politics by their nature. Cyberpunk themes heavily revolve around questions of society, authority, freedom, and control as well as the prerogatives and needs of the individual, and that's when it's not getting on the nose about fighting technocrats. If you make a cyberpunk story and don't engage any of this shit, you're basically left with drivel that masturbates about the coolness of cyberware and a generic rebelliousness that isn't about anything other than the aesthetic of a rebel.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Cyberpunk themes heavily revolve around questions of society, authority, freedom, and control as well as the prerogatives and needs of the individual, and that's when it's not getting on the nose about fighting technocrats

Am I right that all this is the "punk" part of cyberpunk?

 

[Absinthe]

Honestly, cyberpunk existed before people called it that. Sometimes cyberpunk is closer to film noir than anything that resembles "punk" exactly. You can call that the "punk" part if you're hung up about the cyberpunk label, but the "cyber" part also plays into it. How technology and society impact each other is also a part of the genre.

 

[Kjaska]

Or it is the rebellion of the 60., which is even harder to understand when taken at face value.

It was the Jews.

But in all seriousness, it had many things going for it:
- the pristine image of the 50s was a dream and people being people most didn't bother actually living up to the requirements of fulfilling it, leaving said dream to become a farce
- national television creating unprecedented instances of stardom in the likes of Elvis, in turn corrupting the youth with the notion of fame
- the pill, female hygiene products and typewriters propelling women into the workplace alongside men, creating tension
- women's rights
- vietnam
- a phenomena of adopting a rebellious strategy, if the predominant generation is a straight goody-two-shoes winner type. Observed in siblings where if a previously successful strategy is already adopted, the next in line will try to adopt a different strategy. So if the first son is this great kid, who is brave and virtuous winner, his younger sibling will not choose the same strategy. The logical reasons for this are obvious, but it is not a logical decision on the younger sibling's part. It's just a survival strategy. So the younger kid adopts the personality of this downtrodden loser-rebel. He gets his attention(love) through crying loud about his misfortunes (even if they are self-inflicted). Maybe a stretch to apply to an entire generation, but I think because the 50s were so pristine and uniform, such a phenomenal counter-culture was possible.
- and last but not least the demoralization efforts by the KGB. This is tinfoil-maxxing on my part, but I think the possibility of this having a substantial detrimental impact on the american society is moderate to strong.

Not having Rusty on ignore is certainly an interesting way to experience the Codex

I first experienced him in other threads where he wasn't being a politics-tard.

Absinthe I did experience as a tard first. His takes were equally whack in the Path of Exile thread. He was less of a politics-tard, but instead more like a grandpa stuck in his ways. I bet he thinks Blade Runner 2049 is political too, or isn't "real" cyberpunk or some other contrived excuse. Typical philistine.

 

[Absinthe]

Kjaska seems to have forgotten that two world wars bred entire generations of disaffected youths. The whole idea that the 50s were pristine overlooks the fact that 60s hippie movements can trace their roots to 50s beatniks. Also, WW2 had already propelled women into the workplace in the USA, since the male labor force was getting drafted for the war, so they needed women to help run the economy. Technology further made this a thing since cooking, cleaning, doing the dishes, laundry, etc. now involved more convenient appliances and direct gas/electric/water connections to your home rather than having to pump the water from the well, get firewood or charcoal for the stove, burn candles and midnight oil for light, etc. and you had things like laundry machines, vacuum cleaners, and mass-produced clothes, which are more replaceable. All this added up to making housework a lot less labor-intensive, which freed up time for women to join the labor force.

Also, haven't seen Blade Runner 2049, but the Blade Runner movies seem to explore themes of biological control, the divide between replicant and non-replicant populations, the struggle for freedom, corporate power, authority, etc. Yes, it has political themes.

Anyway, you reminded me I have an unfinished PoE thread post sitting somewhere, so I guess I'll get to posting that a bit later. But by all means, do continue idolizing twitch streamers as the epitome of PoE skill.

 

[MuffinBun]

Kjaska seems to have forgotten that two world wars bred entire generations of disaffected youths.

That is a bit dishonest there

But in all seriousness, it had many things going for it:

national television - meh
demoralization by kgb - i sleep
rebellion as survival strategy - ridiculous, it would turn any moment in history into a massive rebellion, which proves that even if a factor, not nearly a sufficient one. And that was the time when it was the easiest to survive.

Both of you mentioned women as a disruptive factor, which is amusing. Side note: I find it a tad too marxist to say that such changes were purely economic in nature. Its easy to demonstrate:

All this added up to making housework a lot less labor-intensive, which freed up time for women to join the labor force.

No, it freed up time for women(still a bit of a stretch). How that time would be spent is when it becomes a political issue, not an economic one. They could use that time to cook for their families, or for leisure. That it happened this particular way had to be, if not engineered, then at least approved by the power center at that time. That is a significant detail people use to omit. The point is: in advanced societies you do not simply rise due to material changes; the power has to approve of that, or at least deliberately ignore you. This is what I mean by counter-signaling materialism or whatever, which happens to depreciate accidental agency.

Also, haven't seen Blade Runner 2049

I see, this was all just a warm up for the BR49 discussion. Exquisite. Well, its a movie about a young guy who's sad because he has no gf, since they were all liberated by the state so that they can work office jobs. Thats it. Dont have to watch it anymore. Cheers.

 

[Kjaska]

I see, this was all just a warm up for the BR49 discussion. Exquisite. Well, its a movie about a young guy who's sad because he has no gf, since they were all liberated by the state so that they can work office jobs. Thats it. Dont have to watch it anymore. Cheers.

ngl, I was taking you seriously before, but now you lose me. "i sleep"

on a more relevant and pressing matter: has anyone seen this bike anywhere else in the game except the location near the city center?

 

[MuffinBun]

ngl, I was taking you seriously before, but now you lose me. "i sleep"

I'm still taking you seriously. What's the problem? You think the movie is much deeper than that?

 

[Absinthe]

Kjaska seems to have forgotten that two world wars bred entire generations of disaffected youths.

That is a bit dishonest there

Not really. A single world war can be written off as an aberration. A bout of mass insanity from which we have emerged wiser. The presence of a second world war on its heels proved otherwise, that there are systematic faults with the way the international powers operate. That engenders a certain disillusionment with authority. Especially when in the wake of world war 2, the major powers wasted no time gambling with the possibility of a nuclear world war 3 with the USSR.

Both of you mentioned women as a disruptive factor, which is amusing. Side note: I find it a tad too marxist to say that such changes were purely economic in nature.

I never said that. I was simply weighing in on factors involved in women joining the work force.

Its easy to demonstrate:

All this added up to making housework a lot less labor-intensive, which freed up time for women to join the labor force.

No, it freed up time for women(still a bit of a stretch). How that time would be spent is when it becomes a political issue, not an economic one. They could use that time to cook for their families, or for leisure. That it happened this particular way had to be, if not engineered, then at least approved by the power center at that time. That is a significant detail people use to omit. The point is: in advanced societies you do not simply rise due to material changes; the power has to approve of that, or at least deliberately ignore you. This is what I mean by counter-signaling materialism or whatever, which happens to depreciate accidental agency.

Look, in order for people to work, they have to have the free time that enables them to work. The greater the burdens of housework, the less free time that leaves those tasked with housework to do other things. This is a simple reality. Also, when you have free time, activities will arise to fill in the gap and economics is quickly involved there, especially since freedom of activity quickly costs money and the idea of having your own money appeals. Your depiction of politics and societal changes as being somehow above or outside the sphere of economics' influence is also ridiculous. During WW2 the USA put women to work because it needed a labor force to service economic needs when the men were being drafted.

Also, haven't seen Blade Runner 2049

I see, this was all just a warm up for the BR49 discussion. Exquisite. Well, its a movie about a young guy who's sad because he has no gf, since they were all liberated by the state so that they can work office jobs. Thats it. Dont have to watch it anymore. Cheers.

You realize you'd've been better off saying nothing than saying something this stupid? Just because you're being sarcastic doesn't mean you're being clever or adding to the conversation.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I think there's a good deal of Gen X resentment against the grown-up Boomer generation of their parents in the cyberpunk trope. If you think about it, the former hippies had all sold out and become the Reagan crowd, now capitalists themselves, and preaching "pull yourself up by your own boostraps" to their kids, heedless of the leg-up they'd been given by their own parents, the Great Generation. Their children must have resented being shut out that way (already having been "latchkey kids" when young). Quite often, the cyberpunk rebel is from the ruling class, knows their ways, knows the backdoors, etc.

Gen X was the first generation to experience NOT being handed down a patrimony from the previous generation, because the previous generation had been trained in "me, me, me." And I think the resentment against "the system" in cyberpunk is a bit like that. It's resentment against being shut out of something that should rightfully have been yours.

William Gibson was born in 1948, thus placing him near the older end of the "Baby Boom" generation, while Bruce Sterling was born in 1954 at the midpoint of the same generation. All of the early Cyberpunk SF writers would have been Boomers, if not older. Cyberpunk was an extension of the punk movement of the 1970s, which would have consisted almost entirely of Boomers, as even the oldest Gen Xers would still have been adolescents at the end of the decade. Some of these early Cyberpunk writers, including Williams Gibson, resented the conservative shift in American politics marked by the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980, and parts of their writing simply represent wish fulfillment, in that a plucky hero might use his technological savvy to fight back against faceless corporations.

Generational concepts are generally useless, since each generation encompasses cohorts born over a wide span of time, with enormous variety within each generation, and any division between succeeding generations is essentially arbitrary.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

and parts of their writing simply represent wish fulfillment, in that a plucky hero might use his technological savvy to fight back against faceless corporations.

AKA libtard power fantasy
people pretending it's not this have to genuinely know nothing about the genre itself

fun fact: Gibson didn't even know how to work a calculator let alone a computer. It was political wish fulfillment using magic technology from the start.

 

[Drop Duck]

I think there's a good deal of Gen X resentment against the grown-up Boomer generation of their parents in the cyberpunk trope. If you think about it, the former hippies had all sold out and become the Reagan crowd, now capitalists themselves, and preaching "pull yourself up by your own boostraps" to their kids, heedless of the leg-up they'd been given by their own parents, the Great Generation. Their children must have resented being shut out that way (already having been "latchkey kids" when young). Quite often, the cyberpunk rebel is from the ruling class, knows their ways, knows the backdoors, etc.

Gen X was the first generation to experience NOT being handed down a patrimony from the previous generation, because the previous generation had been trained in "me, me, me." And I think the resentment against "the system" in cyberpunk is a bit like that. It's resentment against being shut out of something that should rightfully have been yours.

Cyberpunk as a genre was about celebrating the emerging digital paradigm and the urban jungle. The idea that there must be or that there often are undertones against free enterprise is a later construction by brats who read too much reddit. If you go back and look at what people label as politics in science fiction you will discover that while science fiction after John W. Campbell started editing Astounding Stories and imprinted his desire to see it offer exploration of current social issues rather than only escapism there was no anti-system or anti-capitalist sentiments. Some might point to The Futurians as an influence on the genre making it turn this way but they were just a couple of Jewish writing buddies who were interested in a future of technocracy. When William Gibson were writing Neuromancer those times were long since over, Harlan Ellison had led the New Wave rebellion more than a decade ago and Blade Runner hit the silver screens as he was writing it.

What you mistake for resentment against society is just the darker and edgier social critique that was always present since the Campbell days and what you think of as selfishness is a return to the Golden Age type of stories when the hero wins the girl at the end and defeats the monster or villain instead of solving the Seldon crisis. By the time cyberpunk novels were being written people had grown tired of impersonal threats from outer space or a new invention going wrong somehow, they wanted the concrete urban sprawl and stories that made sense to them. Urban Fantasy also came into its own as a genre during the 1980's.

In 1985 Bruce Sterling wrote a manifesto in Interzone about what the newly envisioned science fiction he had in mind was supposed to be.

What, in short, is the New Science Fiction? How do you write it, how do you recognize it?

First, it is not the property of any editor, clique, publisher, or regional or national association. It is not a question of personal influence, creative writing classes, or apprenticeship to genre gurus. It is a question of approach, of technique. And these are its trademarks:

(1) Technological literacy, and a concern with genuine modern science as opposed to the hand-me-down pseudoscience guff of past decades.

(2) Imaginative concentration, in which extrapolations are thoroughly and originally worked out rather than patched together from previous notions.

(3) Visionary intensity, with a bold, no-holds-barred approach to sf's mind-expanding potential.

(4) A global, 21st-century point of view, which is not bound by the assumptions of middle-aged, middle-class white American males.

(5) A fictional technique which takes the advances of the New Wave as already given, using the full range of literary craftsmanship, yet asserting the primacy of content over style and meaning over mannerism.

The New Science Fiction is a process, directed toward a goal. It is an artistic _movement _in the fullest sense of the word. It is the hard work of dedicated artists, who know their work is worthwhile, who treat it as such, and who push themselves to the limit in pursuit of excellence.

And it is for real.

(Interzone, Vol. 14 (Winter 1985/6), p. 39-40)

Anti-capitalism was not a point here, you will find none of the Marxist dogwhistles. It might have flirted with youthful rebellion but it was never serious about that. Sterling remarks in a retrospective of the 90's:

There is another general point to make, which I believe is important to any real understanding of the Movement. Cyberpunk, like New Wave before it, was a voice of Bohemia. It came from the underground, from the outside, from the young and energetic and disenfranchised. It came from people who didn't know their own limits, and refused the limits offered them by mere custom and habit.

Not much SF is really Bohemian, and most of Bohemia has little to do with SF, but there was, and is, much to be gained from the meeting of the two. SF as a genre, even at its most "conventional," is very much a cultural underground. SF's influence on the greater society outside, like the dubious influence of beatniks, hippies, and punks, is carefully limited. Science fiction, like Bohemia, is a useful place to put a wide variety of people, where their ideas and actions can be examined, without the risk of putting those ideas and actions directly into wider practice. Bohemia has served this function since its start in the early industrial Revolution, and the wisdom of this scheme should be admitted. Most weird ideas are simply weird ideas, and Bohemia in power has rarely been a pretty sight. Jules Verne, General Verne, or Pope Jules is a much dicier proposition.

Cyberpunk was a voice of Bohemia - Bohemia in the 1980's. The technosocial changes loose in contemporary society were bound to affect its counterculture. Cyberpunk was the literary incarnation of this phenomenon. And the phenomenon is still growing. Communication technologies in particular are becoming much less respectable, much more volatile, and increasingly in the hands of people you might not introduce to your grandma.

But today, it must be admitted that the cyberpunks - SF veterans in or near their forties, patiently refining their craft and cashing their royalty checks - are no longer a Bohemian underground. This too is an old story in Bohemia; it is the standard punishment for success. An underground in the light of day is a contradiction in terms. Respectability does not merely beckon; it actively envelops. And in this sense, "cyberpunk" is even deader than Shiner admits.

This counterculture was only a way for the great global free market to push the dialectic further, taking science fiction into the post-industrial era, including minorities, womxn and transsexuals in the stories. Bohemians often form the cultural avant-garde but it's about finding something new, not turning your society into a gulag or being a big whiner about not getting the exact same opportunities as the last generation. Punk as a movement was capitalism-positive since the social mores it opposed were outdated and needed to be shed. It is perfectly logical that you'd see stories set in libertarian cyberpunk multicultural utopias being written just as the true global society was starting to emerge. Stories for the world citizen who felt more at home in an international megacity than in Anglo-American culture or on the moon or in another galaxy.

 

[Yosharian]

They are right though, you really don't need to watch BR2049

 

[MuffinBun]

You realize you'd've been better off saying nothing than saying something this stupid? Just because you're being sarcastic doesn't mean you're being clever or adding to the conversation.

It was correct to notice I was being somewhat tongue in cheek here, but to be completely serious: this is a huge part of the movie. Nobody denies it. Even people who make those hours long BR video essays are likely to spend huge parts of them discussing exactly this motive. Such reaction would maybe be warranted if I was implying its an MCU flick or something. And you would not know clever if it hit you it the head.

Go play with

abuse of authority, corruption, rejection of consumerism and commodification, the surveillance state, urbanization

biological control, the divide between replicant and non-replicant populations, the struggle for freedom, corporate power, authority

Suits your tiny brain better.

 

[Absinthe]

MuffinBun was actually doing fairly well in this conversation until he got way too pretentious for his own good. Now he's butthurt to boot.

 

[KVVRR]

videogames?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

videogames?

as it turns out when you make a video game based on a genre that was political from the start, the topics tend to be political

 

[KVVRR]

Cyberpunk is somewhat political but the genre (and setting of the game) is big enough that it allows you both create and interpret their stories in a non political way. Almost every story mission is related in one way or another to V's identity, their aspirations, and how life is in a system that puts people through meatgrinders on the regular. It's not about why the society is like that or how to change it, or even really why it's bad. it's the story of one individual trying to get by on it, day by day. Honestly it all depends on what you consider politics but come the fuck on now, if the game doesn't really involve political parties and active ideologies in a big way within the story I'm not going to call it that. Make the entire game about that brainwashed couple, Johnny's backstory or possibly Mr Blue Eyes and maybe then I'll consider it

That being said,

 

[mediocrepoet]

As it turns out, when you're a politicsfag, 90+% of the things that come out of your face are politicrap.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Cyberpunk is somewhat political but the genre (and setting of the game) is big enough that it allows you both create and interpret their stories in a non political way

And as we can see, it's not what people expected or wanted.
A very small % of people who are smoothbrains go "WOW, NIGHTCITY COOL!" while the rest ask why the game is so fucking garbage and has nothing to do with the source material beyond extremely superficial similarities.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

"noo it's not true there never was any sort of expectation by a game literally named cyberpunk!!! nooooo!!!!"
how much do they pay you guys to shill this garbage here?
https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-biggest-problem-unfixable-story-genre-issues/

The Problem With Cyberpunk 2077 is Cyberpunk Itself


Cyberpunk 2077 isn't just a big budget, AAA game seven years in the making, but it is also named after the entire genre of fiction it depicts. This leaves the game with the impossible responsibility of being the summit of that genre for the gaming medium, and Cyberpunk 2077 never quite hits that peak.

Its name is not so much the problem, but the conceits of the cyberpunk genre itself. If Red Dead Redemption was named “Western” or if Skyrim was named “Fantasy,” they would still work because those genres are related to setting or aesthetics, and really any style of story can be told within these genres. However, the cyberpunk genre, perhaps more than any other, is entwined with the themes of the stories told within it. A cyberpunk world is a mirror or a metaphor for the themes of the story, often relating to what it means to be human, or the nature of consciousness. Cyberpunk 2077 hits all the tenets of the cyberpunk genre like ticking off a checklist, but never takes any real risks or goes beyond scratching the surface of them. It is a cyberpunk game, yet it falls short in key aspects of the cyberpunk genre.

I can't tell if you guys are genuine retards or just rightoids so deep in the cope that you think cyberpunk is meant to be a politically neutral playground intended to tell a wide range of stories. You're so vain you think the song is about you.