Chaotic Evil. What's wrong with it?

[Zed Duke of Banville]

For example, I've a mate called Scott who's always hung around with a nutcase in the village called Si because Si is hard as fuck, and well known for being able to flatten people. Si's a nightmare to go out with though as he's always fighting, has some mental issues, and is erratic as fuck. But Scott is often glued to him because he feels safe with him around. Even though Si has even chinned Scott a few times himself.

Your location reads Nottingham not Edinburgh.

I would argue that Mafias are more Lawful Evil: They're fundamentally ORGANIZED. Codes and rules like "keep silent, don't rat, and do your time" and "don't kill women and children" are lawful tics. Mafias are criminals that have order to them. Members of a mafia are expected to place the interests of the mafia ahead of their own. That's a very lawful kind of behavior.

First, we must define lawful and chaotic.

 

[laclongquan]

Chaotic Evil only works if you are Joker. THE Joker. Or as Harle Quinn call im: lil pudding~

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? The Joker. Singular. The Joker has no social structure he fits into. He doesn't really lead or fit into an organization. He's a lone clown, his only minions being those he has coerced into obedience by intimidation or chemicals. Eventually Batman punches him in the face and he goes back to the funny farm until the next episode. Chaotic Evil entities don't tend to exist in any kind of long-lasting, cohesive social structure. It's the kind of alignment you can be if you are a dragon, and can just burninate the countryside, the peasants, all the people, and their thatched-roof cottages, and not even care. It's not the kind of thing that leads to a future if you're a small, squishy creature that depends on the cooperation of other small, squishy creatures for success.

What do you mean Joker has no social structure?

He has a bunch of minions who served his crazy ass chaotic plans. Granted, most of them dont survive such things but NOTE: he does found enough minions for his plans, despite that said symptom. Meaning Joker has a charisma of his own that allow him to get disposable pawns at any moment's notice. JOKER NEVER ALONE!

Joker has a gay follower: Batman. Note that Batman never even break Joker's bones after many times beat him senseless. Joker has a crazy girlfriend who latch on him like a leech. That mean his charismatic draw is strong.

Joker actually show the position of a Chaotic Evil in a party: leader. Because a chaotic evil member would get beaten to death after his one or two feeble attempt at Chaotic Evil. CE need to be at center, controller, leader of a party for his own existence.

So yes, any clown attempting CE generally is too weakass to succeed at that. That alignment is too demanding.

 

[NecroLord]

For example, I've a mate called Scott who's always hung around with a nutcase in the village called Si because Si is hard as fuck, and well known for being able to flatten people. Si's a nightmare to go out with though as he's always fighting, has some mental issues, and is erratic as fuck. But Scott is often glued to him because he feels safe with him around. Even though Si has even chinned Scott a few times himself.

Your location reads Nottingham not Edinburgh.

I would argue that Mafias are more Lawful Evil: They're fundamentally ORGANIZED. Codes and rules like "keep silent, don't rat, and do your time" and "don't kill women and children" are lawful tics. Mafias are criminals that have order to them. Members of a mafia are expected to place the interests of the mafia ahead of their own. That's a very lawful kind of behavior.

First, we must define lawful and chaotic.

It's shite being scottish.

 

[Semiurge]

Chaotic Evil only works if you are Joker. THE Joker. Or as Harle Quinn call im: lil pudding~

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? The Joker. Singular. The Joker has no social structure he fits into. He doesn't really lead or fit into an organization. He's a lone clown, his only minions being those he has coerced into obedience by intimidation or chemicals. Eventually Batman punches him in the face and he goes back to the funny farm until the next episode. Chaotic Evil entities don't tend to exist in any kind of long-lasting, cohesive social structure. It's the kind of alignment you can be if you are a dragon, and can just burninate the countryside, the peasants, all the people, and their thatched-roof cottages, and not even care. It's not the kind of thing that leads to a future if you're a small, squishy creature that depends on the cooperation of other small, squishy creatures for success.

Are there good dragons in D&D to balance the evil ones? Anyway it seems like there should be because a dragon is a historic symbol of the forces of nature, of the universe itself.

 

[NecroLord]

Chaotic Evil only works if you are Joker. THE Joker. Or as Harle Quinn call im: lil pudding~

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? The Joker. Singular. The Joker has no social structure he fits into. He doesn't really lead or fit into an organization. He's a lone clown, his only minions being those he has coerced into obedience by intimidation or chemicals. Eventually Batman punches him in the face and he goes back to the funny farm until the next episode. Chaotic Evil entities don't tend to exist in any kind of long-lasting, cohesive social structure. It's the kind of alignment you can be if you are a dragon, and can just burninate the countryside, the peasants, all the people, and their thatched-roof cottages, and not even care. It's not the kind of thing that leads to a future if you're a small, squishy creature that depends on the cooperation of other small, squishy creatures for success.

Are there good dragons in D&D to balance the evil ones? Anyway it seems like there should be because a dragon is a historic symbol of the forces of nature, of the universe itself.

There are.
Silver and gold dragons for example.

 

[Norfleet]

He has a bunch of minions who served his crazy ass chaotic plans. Granted, most of them dont survive such things but NOTE: he does found enough minions for his plans, despite that said symptom. Meaning Joker has a charisma of his own that allow him to get disposable pawns at any moment's notice. JOKER NEVER ALONE!

Yes, but all of those minions are mutated monsters, people on drugs, or people who have otherwise been coerced into obedience out of fear of having a pencil jammed into their brain. It's not any kind of stable or even meta-stable social structure. The entire enterprise pretty much falls over the moment Batman punches him in the face.

And that's the problem with Chaotic Evil: It doesn't actually function, which is why as an alignment, it's only useful for psycho bad guys, where the deficiencies of the alignment are masked by the fact that you only need one of them and the general instability of the organizational structure is considered an asset, because having the evil organization just cease to be after the players kill the bad guy is awfully convenient.

 

[laclongquan]

He has a bunch of minions who served his crazy ass chaotic plans. Granted, most of them dont survive such things but NOTE: he does found enough minions for his plans, despite that said symptom. Meaning Joker has a charisma of his own that allow him to get disposable pawns at any moment's notice. JOKER NEVER ALONE!

Yes, but all of those minions are mutated monsters, people on drugs, or people who have otherwise been coerced into obedience out of fear of having a pencil jammed into their brain. It's not any kind of stable or even meta-stable social structure. The entire enterprise pretty much falls over the moment Batman punches him in the face.

And that's the problem with Chaotic Evil: It doesn't actually function, which is why as an alignment, it's only useful for psycho bad guys, where the deficiencies of the alignment are masked by the fact that you only need one of them and the general instability of the organizational structure is considered an asset, because having the evil organization just cease to be after the players kill the bad guy is awfully convenient.

This statement has an implying element of herding all those mutated monster, drugged people, coerced people etc.. being an EASY thing. And herd them into doing your plans, crazy ass plans that they are, being an EASY thing.

It is NOT.

You just dont know what you dont know.

Your statement is an actual praise on Joker's charismatic personality, crazy that it is, and his leading ability. Whether out of fear, or being brainwashed, it doesnt really matter. They still get lead into doing all those crazy ass plans of Joker without an official structure like an usual organization that has any element of Lawful alignment in it.

THIS is the kind of thinking that think roleplaying Chaotic Evil is easy. Posers, the lot of them~
(about them being scattered when Batman punch Joker. Well FUCK! it's the god of DC universe doing the punching thing. The other god being Superman. What they gonna do? Stand eating a batman punch and get thrown into Arkham? That's major villains' treatment, not minions')

 

[boot]

never read a comic in my life I see no problem with chaotic evil

 

[Norfleet]

This statement has an implying element of herding all those mutated monster, drugged people, coerced people etc.. being an EASY thing. And herd them into doing your plans, crazy ass plans that they are, being an EASY thing.

It is when you've functionally got plot fiat working for you.

That's why it doesn't work when you have to actually play it out. He works mostly because of plot powers. Plus, Joker doesn't really so much herd all those people as he simply turns them loose to run amok. There is no Joker Logistics Division or Joker Command and Control. At least several plot points have Joker's schemes fail due to his lack of actual control over them.

 

[Nathaniel3W]

Do people actually roll up chaotic evil player characters? Like, not just in media about D&D, but they do this when actually playing D&D? Any DM I've ever had would have refused to allow CE PCs at the table.

As for how you would roleplay a CE character, I can't think of a good real-life human culture you could even mimic. The boys in Lord of the Flies become chaotic evil. The people in The Purge become chaotic evil for a night. I guess other situations where civilization breaks down could spawn chaotic evil groups: looters, rioters, other criminals doing whatever they want in the absence of functioning law enforcement. But usually those groups don't, and can't, last long. Maybe a chaotic evil group can exist, but a lawful evil leader would have to impose some order on the group. Orcs under Sauron in Lord of the Rings, marauders under Lord Humungus in the Road Warrior.

I can imagine a chaotic evil person pretending to be lawful good. Maybe that's what looters and rioters are. And nearly everyone else too, according to Lord of the Flies and The Purge.

But does anyone actually roleplay a chaotic evil PC doing chaotic evil things? If the party's paladin or cleric or other lawful good character witnessed one of the other PCs doing something chaotic evil, wouldn't they immediately try to kill the evil character?

 

[PapaPetro]

Fellas, it's not rocket science.

Maybe you guys are getting tripped up by Neutrality.

Hey Nano & Berekän here's your rating right here

 

[PapaPetro]

Fellas, it's not rocket science.

Maybe you guys are getting tripped up by Neutrality.

To save time for the mid-witted, Chaotic Evil would thus map to the modern real analog of Antifa (anti-order, anti-Logos/God, Morally Relativistic).

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Just play CE like a narcissitic sociopath rather than a psychopath. The CE character will avoid things which obligate and constrain them, but won't have any problem making agreements only to ignore or break them at every turn of their self-interest. Impulse control might be a problem, but that expresses itself different depending on the position of the character. A leader might be more wrathful while a lackey is going to be more thieving and manipulative. Lie when it suits you. The point is that harm to others isn't an obstacle to your goals. It doesn't mean you have to be possessed by bloodlust. Consider that Sarevok Anchev, mastermind of a nearly successful scheme to create a commodity cartel, ascend to grand duke of Baldur's Gate, and foist a war on Amn was CE.

On a NWN2 RP server, I played a CN Arcane Trickster. Here are some examples of things I did on the evil spectrum. I was standing at a crossroads with my party waiting for someone to catch-up. One of the four paths lead down to a canyon filled with wyvern nests and was very deadly. Two PCs ran up and asked if they saw another group pass recently, as they were trying to join them. I gave them false direction down into the canyon. They cheerfully thanked me and went to their doom. I later snuck down and robbed their corpses. Easy. Money.

 

[boot]

Fellas, it's not rocket science.

Maybe you guys are getting tripped up by Neutrality.

To save time for the mid-witted, Chaotic Evil would thus map to the modern real analog of Antifa (anti-order, anti-Logos/God, Morally Relativistic).

Anti-Logos/God describes pretty much everything

 

[PapaPetro]

Fellas, it's not rocket science.

Maybe you guys are getting tripped up by Neutrality.

To save time for the mid-witted, Chaotic Evil would thus map to the modern real analog of Antifa (anti-order, anti-Logos/God, Morally Relativistic).

Anti-Logos/God describes pretty much everything

Why you think that?

 

[boot]

Because I'm in New York City

 

[PapaPetro]

Because I'm in New York City

Oh Logos, not logos.
I imagine a lot of the latter and not the former there.
By basic definition, things that aren't like God are classified as Evil or anciently known as by the Greeks "anti-Logos" (as in not from the Word/God). These things are accidents of Creation; byproducts generated by humanity's "limited" free will and creativity. The shitty things like death and entropy and tummy aches. Suffering since they didn't know the purpose of Creation.
For example, a faggot* would be anti-Logos ontologically since God is not that; how else could the former justify its being against the later?
(*faggot here could be a homosexual or just anything that isn't based like God.)
Using this example, you should be able to extrapolate what Logos means to yourself and to others coherently and consistently without sounding like a clueless city slicker from NYC.

*Now I imagine a lot of faggots getting upset that I effectively called them evil. Well too bad. It's a fact you are unlike God by your nature and actions. You know that's why most of you are atheists or some other esoteric nonsense to avoid judgement. Either deal with that or cope cuz you ain't ever making God a fag. You can take your libertine notions of Modernity and shove em up your ass along with everything else.

 

[somerandomdude]

The one and only time I ever took one of those DnD alignment tests, it said that I was Chaotic Neutral.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The one and only time I ever took one of those DnD alignment tests, it said that I was Chaotic Neutral.

Fitting user name.

 

[somerandomdude]

It's true, I might rob someone blind one moment, just to offer another the shirt off my back if they need it. The ability to balance good and evil on a whim pretty much defines Chaotic-Neutral, and just as important is truly not giving a shit who likes it or not.

 

[Norfleet]

Maybe you guys are getting tripped up by Neutrality.

Well, with enemies, you know where they stand, but with neutrals, who knows? It sickens me. What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?

 

[NecroLord]

Neutrality is just survival. Not malice or benevolence. Just survival.
And balancing the cosmic scale of Good and Evil.

 

[PapaPetro]

Neutrality is just survival. Not malice or benevolence. Just survival.
And balancing the cosmic scale of Good and Evil.

You can justify some pretty evil shit for "survival".
I don't buy that "Neutrality" is truly Neutral. That's a false premise that only benefits evil at the expense of good. Like grey is to black against white. Or how shadows are relative to darkness rather than light (i.e. the essence of a shadow is darkness, not light).

 

[spectre]

I like the way this site puts it down:
https://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html

There is some leeway in interpreting each alignment, say "neutral", which can both represent a guy with no strong convictions, just doing what seems good to get by, and a guy
who gets all philosophical about maintaining balance, preaching moderation and being overtly critical of anything extreme.

When bunched with another alignment, I like to interpret "neutral" as being a blank which dials the other half of the character to 120%.

Similarly, an "evil" character will justify a whole bunch of actions, from the moronic biowarean trope of cackling and being mean to people for no reason, to simply always putting one's self interest first.

I think this variety of interpretation is necessary in the context of building a party. A Chaotic Neutral and a Lawful Neutral would find very little in common and this should serve
as a constant source of interpersonal tension. How to make them work together nonetheless? It's a good breeding ground for some comedy, but you don't always want that.
The logical and easy choice is to confront them with an even greater, extreme Evil, one that would threaten the identity of both of them on a fundamental level.

An interesting mental exercise would be if same could be achieved with an extreme Good. Perhaps the LN character will be offended by the perceived lack of efficiency
and promotion of mediocrity and find some common ground with the turbo-individualistic CN?

Now, the original question was about Chaotic Evil, which I think should be about as obnoxious a thing to fit in a party as Lawful Good.
My preferred approach is to have them both as "necessary evils", with plenty of personal tension due to the extreme nature of such characters,
basically these are guys everyone tiptoes around and grits their teeth because they are needed for a specific purpose, because they either set the tone for the entire ensemble,
or become that guy who sits alone by the campfire.

Of course, fantasy tropes being fantasy tropes, a LG questing paladin is always a tad easier to justify in a party than the CE guy.
What interest would they have in pursuing a noble adventure other than being forced to? Or perhaps just pursuing an own agenda which at the moment aligns with the rest of the party.

 

[NecroLord]

I like the way this site puts it down:
https://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html

There is some leeway in interpreting each alignment, say "neutral", which can both represent a guy with no strong convictions, just doing what seems good to get by, and a guy
who gets all philosophical about maintaining balance, preaching moderation and being overtly critical of anything extreme.

When bunched with another alignment, I like to interpret "neutral" as being a blank which dials the other half of the character to 120%.

Similarly, an "evil" character will justify a whole bunch of actions, from the moronic biowarean trope of cackling and being mean to people for no reason, to simply always putting one's self interest first.

I think this variety of interpretation is necessary in the context of building a party. A Chaotic Neutral and a Lawful Neutral would find very little in common and this should serve
as a constant source of interpersonal tension. How to make them work together nonetheless? It's a good breeding ground for some comedy, but you don't always want that.
The logical and easy choice is to confront them with an even greater, extreme Evil, one that would threaten the identity of both of them on a fundamental level.

An interesting mental exercise would be if same could be achieved with an extreme Good. Perhaps the LN character will be offended by the perceived lack of efficiency
and promotion of mediocrity and find some common ground with the turbo-individualistic CN?

Now, the original question was about Chaotic Evil, which I think should be about as obnoxious a thing to fit in a party as Lawful Good.
My preferred approach is to have them both as "necessary evils", with plenty of personal tension due to the extreme nature of such characters,
basically these are guys everyone tiptoes around and grits their teeth because they are needed for a specific purpose, because they either set the tone for the entire ensemble,
or become that guy who sits alone by the campfire.

Of course, fantasy tropes being fantasy tropes, a LG questing paladin is always a tad easier to justify in a party than the CE guy.
What interest would they have in pursuing a noble adventure other than being forced to? Or perhaps just pursuing an own agenda which at the moment aligns with the rest of the party.

Yeah, that's the problem. How in the Nine Hells would a Chaotic Evil character fit in with a party which is comprised mostly of good characters? Either he would conceal his alignment and intentions, or he might be on the path to redemption. Maybe the party paladin agreed to help the Chaotic Evil guy redeem himself and abandon evil.
For example, Keldorn has some interesting dialogue with Sarevok (who is Chaotic Evil) concerning the path he has chosen and the suffering it brought him. Pretty interesting.