Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Kyl Von Kull]

You're assuming he wrote everything in secret and suddenly showed up with the finished content. Do you really believe they never got progress updates, couldn't read what he was writing and never gave him the go ahead? Even if that was case, and there's nothing to suggest it was, it was on Sawyer, Brennecke and Fenstermaker to keep track of his progress.

It's certainly possible that the leads were reluctant to manage MCA the way they ought to have. Maybe there was already bad blood in the air and they didn't want to interact with him too much. Or maybe they trusted him to do his thing with less supervision, and thought it would all work out.

Still, at what point does one demand some common sense? He must have known what the other companion writers were doing, did he not think that maybe writing ten times as much content as they were might not turn out well?

I feel for Sawyer and Fenstermaker here. It can be very awkward when you’re supervising a guy who’s also sort of your boss. Even if MCA was the most easygoing guy in the world, it’s tough telling someone who owns a meaningful chunk of the company you work for to do their job differently, especially when that person is also a legend in the field. Easier to just let him do his thing and then try to keep him out of the loop as long as possible when you make your cuts.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm talking about the decision to cut large swathes of backstory and dialogue dealing with the relationship between Durance and the Grieving Mother, and interactions with the player character, which is what Avellone's tweet alludes to.

OK - I think it's likely that that backstory would not have been cut if Obsidian had found a way to integrate it outside the context of the dream sequences and the other cut quests. Since the final versions of Durance and Grieving Mother were reduced to pure text dispensers (new text to read every three rests!), instead of having quests in the world that would have allowed them to reveal information in a more organic way like the other companions, there was a limit to what Obsidian could plausibly do with them.

For example, how do you reveal the shared backstory of Durance and Grieving Mother if there's no actual quest where they interact? Obsidian tried to retrofit as much as they could of the backstory that was meant to be revealed in these quests into Durance and GM's self-contained monologues, but they couldn't do everything and still have it make sense. The cut questlines (dream sequences, etc) were the problem.

 

[Fairfax]

You're assuming he wrote everything in secret and suddenly showed up with the finished content. Do you really believe they never got progress updates, couldn't read what he was writing and never gave him the go ahead? Even if that was case, and there's nothing to suggest it was, it was on Sawyer, Brennecke and Fenstermaker to keep track of his progress.

It's certainly possible that the leads were reluctant to manage MCA the way they ought to have. Maybe there was already bad blood in the air and they didn't want to interact with him too much. Or maybe they trusted him to do his thing with less supervision.

Why would there be bad blood before this happened? Not interacting with and failing supervise one of the writers is just bad management. I don't see how you could blame that on MCA.

Still, at what point does one demand some common sense? He must have known what the other companion writers were doing, did he not think that maybe writing ten times as much content as they were might not turn out well?

If they approved it, what's the issue? If they didn't, they weren't keeping track.

Also, he's said several times that he doesn't mind cuts at all, and that writers who do care "probably won't last long in the industry". If he was upset, it was because of how it was handled by the leads, not the fact the content was cut.

 

[Infinitron]

Why would there be bad blood before this happened?

You tell me. The man left for some reason.

 

[Cross]

I'm talking about the decision to cut large swathes of backstory and dialogue dealing with the relationship between Durance and the Grieving Mother, and interactions with the player character, which is what Avellone's tweet alludes to.

OK - I think it's likely that that backstory would not have been cut if Obsidian had found a way to integrate it outside the context of the dream sequences and the other cut quests. Since the final versions of Durance and Grieving Mother were reduced to pure text dispensers (new text to read every three rests!), instead of having quests in the world that would have allowed them to reveal information in a more organic way like the other companions, there was a limit to what Obsidian could plausibly do with them.

For example, how do you reveal the shared backstory of Durance and Grieving Mother if there's no actual quest where they interact? Obsidian tried to retrofit as much as they could of the backstory that was meant to be revealed in these quests into their self-contained monologues, but they couldn't do everything and still have it make sense. The cut questlines (dream sequences, etc) were the problem.

Have you never played a game with Avellone-written companions before? The companions in PS:T and Kotor 2 don't have discrete companion quests either, they instead have a bunch of interactions that flesh them out (amd I would argue in a more organic way than a traditional companion quest). The companion quest model is more of a Bioware tradition. There's no reason why that content had to be cut even in the absence of discrete companion quests for Durance and the Grieving Mother. As I (and Fenstermaker) said, the VO budget seems to have been the reason for making those cuts.

 

[Infinitron]

Have you never played a game with Avellone-written companions before? The companions in PS:T and Kotor 2 don't have discrete companion quests either, they instead have a bunch of interactions that flesh them out (amd I would argue in a more organic way than a traditional companion quest).

I'm not sure I agree with that.

But regardless, I am open to the possibility that Obsidan could have salvaged MCA's work on Durance & GM more effectively. We don't know the details of why things turned out the way they did. Perhaps one day we can try to get Eric or Carrie to explain in detail their reasoning for why certain elements of those backstories were thrown out and others were kept.

The VO thing sounds to me like a lame excuse, I'm not convinced it was the primary factor here.

 

[Rev]

I feel for Sawyer and Fenstermaker here. It can be very awkward when you’re supervising a guy who’s also sort of your boss. Even if MCA was the most easygoing guy in the world, it’s tough telling someone who owns a meaningful chunk of the company you work for to do their job differently, especially when that person is also a legend in the field. Easier to just let him do his thing and then try to keep him out of the loop as long as possible when you make your cuts.

I don't know about Fenstermaker, but Sawyer doesn't seem like the type who has too much problem saying what he wants from his team when he's leading the project. Also, he was the lead on New Vegas too where he had Avellone as a writer/designer under him, so I'd think he was accustomed to it, by the time Pillars production began.

 

[Roguey]

Why would there be bad blood before this happened?

I do recall Chris saying he was getting increasingly upset over how they name-dropped Torment in the pitch, but as time went on, that all went by the wayside. Various interviews where he gives some variation on the "Nobody ever listened to me about anything" theme.

 

[Fairfax]

Why would there be bad blood before this happened?

You tell me. The man left for some reason.

It's amusing that I'm often accused of manufacturing a beef between MCA and Sawyer, but you were the one assuming it to justify what happened and criticize him.

Why would there be bad blood before this happened?

I do recall Chris saying he was getting increasingly upset over how they name-dropped Torment in the pitch, but as time went on, that all went by the wayside. Various interviews where he gives some variation on the "Nobody ever listened to me about anything" theme.

He did talk a few times about how game had nothing to with Torment and sounded disappointed, but I didn't get the impression he was actually upset or giving that theme. Even if he was upset, it's a long way from that to telling everybody off and refusing to cooperate, as Infinitron was suggesting.

 

[tripedal]

There was a spec and all the other companion writers met it, why couldn't he?

One law for the Lion & the Ox is Oppression.

 

[Neanderthal]

As much as I like tilting at Windmills its time to introduce some facts to this discussion:

1. Torment had no Elves and is widely considered to be MCAs magnum opus.
2. TSL had no Elves, classic.
3. NWN2 had Elves and is one of the weakest of Obsidians catalogue.
4. New Vegas no Elves, classic.
5. Dungeon Siege 3 and Alpha Protocol had no Elves, flawed gems that still benefitted from the wise moratorium on Alfarim.
6. Showing utter folly Obsidian made truce with the Erl King and reinstituted their Elvish collaboration in Poe.
7. Ergo MCA left in disgust and fear for the immortal souls of his workmates.

Now let that be an end to these ruminations.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Can someone link me a video I've seen somewhere around here, where PoE team is giving an interview? The one I remember (maybe incorrectly) where MCA starts answering a question about something (NPCs?), and immediately gets cut of by Sawyer that proceeds to give his answer while MCA just looks at in exasperation?

 

[Fairfax]

Can someone link me a video I've seen somewhere around here, where PoE team is giving an interview? The one I remember (maybe incorrectly) where MCA starts answering a question about something (NPCs?), and immediately gets cut of by Sawyer that proceeds to give his answer while MCA just looks at in exasperation?

 

[Xeon]

That doesn't look like he cut him off on purpose. MCA was about to speak and Josh answered before he could and I don't think he saw him or anything, the girl didn't say if the question was for MCA specifically either.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Thanks, gonna watch it later. I could be misremembering how it looked.

 

[Infinitron]

It's amusing that I'm often accused or manufacturing a beef between MCA and Sawyer, but you were the one assuming it to justify what happened and criticize him.

By "bad blood" I don't mean a personal beef between MCA and Sawyer. If there was bad blood, it was more likely about Chris Avellone's standing and reputation within Obsidian being fraught in general. I mean, quarrels with the other owners. Work ethic issues (doesn't have time to lead a project at Obsidian but keeps doing odd jobs on other companies' games, wtf?). A general sense of resentment. He may have become that guy at the company that nobody wanted to mess with because it results in drama. So you just keep your distance and let him do his thing and deal with the fallout afterwards, because dammit, the fans love him.

That's my wild_conjecture.txt, anyway.

 

[Ringhausen]

That doesn't look like he cut him off on purpose. MCA was about to speak and Josh answered before he could and I don't think he saw him or anything, the girl didn't say if the question was for MCA specifically either.

You are completely wrong. Sawyer clearly disrespected Chris, it was a sick burn.

 

[Roguey]

He may have become that guy at the company that nobody wanted to mess with because it results in drama.

Except Tina Parker of course.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Ok, I watched that part of the video now, and while it likely wasn't on purpose, I still think Sawyer comes off as a bit of a clueless dick. Companions, namedropping PST - the question is tailor made for MCA, even the guy in charge looks at him expecting him to answer. But then Sawyer buts in.

 

[Mikeal]

As much as I like tilting at Windmills its time to introduce some facts to this discussion:

1. Torment had no Elves and is widely considered to be MCAs magnum opus.
2. TSL had no Elves, classic.
3. NWN2 had Elves and is one of the weakest of Obsidians catalogue.
4. New Vegas no Elves, classic.
5. Dungeon Siege 3 and Alpha Protocol had no Elves, flawed gems that still benefitted from the wise moratorium on Alfarim.
6. Showing utter folly Obsidian made truce with the Erl King and reinstituted their Elvish collaboration in Poe.
7. Ergo MCA left in disgust and fear for the immortal souls of his workmates.

Now let that be an end to these ruminations.

But what about "Mask of Betrayer"?

 

[Flou]

Ok, I watched that part of the video now, and while it likely wasn't on purpose, I still think Sawyer comes off as a bit of a clueless dick. Companions, namedropping PST - the question is tailor made for MCA, even the guy in charge looks at him expecting him to answer. But then Sawyer buts in.

Shouldn't the guy in charge direct the questions to a panelist, to avoid any situations like this? As the project director Sawyer answering that question isn't that special, even though it seems a bit clumsy. I bet he doesn't even notice that the guy is looking at Chris for the answer because he has already started to think about the answer in his mind.
I don't know why anyone would even remember that videoclip from few years ago... Chris got to answer the question after Josh had finished what he had to say. Overanalyzing things 101 by Codex :D

 

[Zero Credibility]

Aye, that's our second favorite thing here on the 'dex, right after bitching about things. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

As much as I like tilting at Windmills its time to introduce some facts to this discussion:

1. Torment had no Elves and is widely considered to be MCAs magnum opus.
2. TSL had no Elves, classic.
3. NWN2 had Elves and is one of the weakest of Obsidians catalogue.
4. New Vegas no Elves, classic.
5. Dungeon Siege 3 and Alpha Protocol had no Elves, flawed gems that still benefitted from the wise moratorium on Alfarim.
6. Showing utter folly Obsidian made truce with the Erl King and reinstituted their Elvish collaboration in Poe.
7. Ergo MCA left in disgust and fear for the immortal souls of his workmates.

Now let that be an end to these ruminations.

But what about "Mask of Betrayer"?

Set in a land as far away from elves as possible. No elvish companions. No elvish people. None. Zip.

 

[jaydee2k]

Damn people, let the corpse rot already

Obligatory for you Chris

 

[Fairfax]

Infinitron stop editing my posts.