Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Wunderbar]

F:NV status as a cult classic only came to fruition after the modding community spend several years salvaging the game from its trainwreck of a launch

FNV is fine as it is (with patches and DLCs ofc). The only mods I'm always installing are Josh Sawyer's mod, better UI and nudepatch.

 

[Kz3r0]

(and I think there are many people at Bethesda who genuinely love Fallout)

The same way an abusive husband loves his battered wife.

Actually they are true RPG fans, for the wrong reasons, the larping in Ultima, same as Garriott really and the whackiness of Fallout, exploding like a blood sausage in Fargo parliance.

 

[Haba]

because F:NV quite simply was a mess.

I played it through (or to the end game at least) on launch version. What a mess it was. </sarcasm>

Stop being so bitter about your deownering.

 

[Funposter]

How many decades of games with stories must we go through before it's considered not young?

The gap between 'The Story of the Kelly Gang' and 'Gone with the Wind' was 33 years, so we should be there soon!!!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

because F:NV quite simply was a mess.

I played it through (or to the end game at least) on launch version. What a mess it was. </sarcasm>

Stop being so bitter about your deownering.

And I de-installed the launch version after 30 minutes and didn't touch it for the next 3 years until it acquired enough mod support. But please don't tell Feargus, I need my royalties.

 

[Fairfax]

So they hate a spin-off made in 18 months by a studio with no experience with Gamebryo, which managed to be better game than their own Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 (and they spent 5 years on each). Have they considered maybe.. working harder?

I think the general sentiment is understandable. Nobody enjoys being embarrassed like that, and if external Fallouts became the main attraction, it'd be quite demoralizing for the devs and also bad for business.

However, their solution should prevent any empathy. Instead of learning from the experience and trying to make something in the same vein, they clutched their pearls and went in the opposite direction. FO4 is the anti-FNV, and instead of funding/making another interesting spin-off, they pull a repurposed-FO4 online shooter that nobody ever asked for.

Their solution was also short-sighted. Sure, they didn't get showed up by Obsidian again, but that didn't prevent other games from making them look even worse. In the end, they were embarrassed all the same and passed up a guaranteed $500-800 million profit.

 

[Latelistener]

At the time it made perfect sense for them not to contract Obsidian for F:NV2, because F:NV quite simply was a mess.

Bethesda games aren't any better in this regard, and considering that they're spending 5 years on each makes it look even worse. For example, Skyrim had a trouble with LAA on release - it couldn't use more than 2GB of RAM (everyone with a proper gaming machine had at least 4GB in 2011) and some people with more RAM couldn't even launch it. A quick fan fix was made, but the official one came out only a month later.

The difference is that the shallow content they produce usually aren't even worth the trouble of patching it. It is a good base for porn mods though.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

At the time it made perfect sense for them not to contract Obsidian for F:NV2, because F:NV quite simply was a mess.

Bethesda games aren't any better in this regard, and considering that they're spending 5 years on each makes it look even worse. For example, Skyrim had a trouble with LAA on release - it couldn't use more than 2GB of RAM (everyone with a proper gaming machine had at least 4GB in 2011) and some people with more RAM couldn't even launch it. A quick fan fix was made, but the official one came out only a month later.

The difference is that the shallow content they produce usually aren't even worth the trouble of patching it. It is a good base for porn mods though.

Oh for sure, Bethesda games are just as bad, but for some inexplicable reason they keep getting away with it, while for Obsidian F:NV cemented the Bugshitian reputation that they didn't shake off to this very day (even though post-Alpha Protocol they massively improved their QA)

 

[Latelistener]

Oh for sure, Bethesda games are just as bad, but for some inexplicable reason they keep getting away with it, while for Obsidian F:NV cemented the Bugshitian reputation that they didn't shake off to this very day (even though post-Alpha Protocol they massively improved their QA)

It's funny because from what I remember QA for New Vegas was on Bethesda.

As for their own games, they just have better marketing so they can get away with it. Read any unofficial patch notes if you don't believe me. The amount of unresolved issues they left is breathtaking:

https://afkmods.iguanadons.net/Unofficial Oblivion Patch Version History.html
https://afkmods.iguanadons.net/Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch Version History.html

 

[Roguey]

I find that tweet hard to believe, given that people in Bethesda would be perfectly aware that F:NV status as a cult classic only came to fruition after the modding community spend several years salvaging the game from its trainwreck of a launch. It's one of those odd games whose reputation at first was rather mixed, but only keeps growing as the years go by.

At the time it made perfect sense for them not to contract Obsidian for F:NV2, because F:NV quite simply was a mess.

New Vegas was perfectly playable after December of 2010. Additionally, the lousy launch (that Brian Fargo claims they themselves contributed to by moving the release date up) didn't stop them from completing the DLC plan.

I've also heard from more than one source that all the fondness for New Vegas is a source of bitterness at Bethesda.

 

[Sacred82]

I find that tweet hard to believe, given that people in Bethesda would be perfectly aware that F:NV status as a cult classic only came to fruition after the modding community spend several years salvaging the game from its trainwreck of a launch. It's one of those odd games whose reputation at first was rather mixed, but only keeps growing as the years go by.

dude what

I've always played F:NV + DLC, no mods.

Did they go full beamderp and just put community fixes in their game or are you full of shit?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I find that tweet hard to believe, given that people in Bethesda would be perfectly aware that F:NV status as a cult classic only came to fruition after the modding community spend several years salvaging the game from its trainwreck of a launch. It's one of those odd games whose reputation at first was rather mixed, but only keeps growing as the years go by.

At the time it made perfect sense for them not to contract Obsidian for F:NV2, because F:NV quite simply was a mess.

New Vegas was perfectly playable after December of 2010.

Yeah and Kingmaker was perfectly playable since page 100 of the Codex thread, except we're now at page 350 and they've just announced next patch has over 1,000 fixes.

I find that tweet hard to believe, given that people in Bethesda would be perfectly aware that F:NV status as a cult classic only came to fruition after the modding community spend several years salvaging the game from its trainwreck of a launch. It's one of those odd games whose reputation at first was rather mixed, but only keeps growing as the years go by.

dude what

I've always played F:NV + DLC, no mods.

Then you have never played F:NV at all, because as far as I'm concerned it doesn't even exist without Sawyer's mod.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah and Kingmaker was perfectly playable since page 100 of the Codex thread, except we're now at page 350 and they've just announced next patch has over 1,000 fixes.

I bought New Vegas on release and gave up in November because I got fed up with the bugs. After the patch in December, I was able to complete it just fine with no issues I can remember. Since then, I've completed the fully patched version twice with no issues.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah and Kingmaker was perfectly playable since page 100 of the Codex thread, except we're now at page 350 and they've just announced next patch has over 1,000 fixes.

I bought New Vegas on release and gave up in November because I got fed up with the bugs. After the patch in December, I was able to complete it just fine with no issues I can remember. Since then, I've completed the fully patched version twice with no issues.

Oh don't act dense, you're smarter than this. Just because one person has no issues with the game, doesn't mean the game has no issues. Especially if the game is a non-linear sandbox where everybody has a different experience and does things in different order. Modders have been patching F:NV well into mid 2010s.

 

[Roguey]

Oh don't act dense, you're smarter than this. Just because one person has no issues with the game, doesn't mean the game has no issues. Especially if the game is a non-linear sandbox where everybody has a different experience and does things in different order. Modders have been patching F:NV well into mid 2010s.

I've never had to use any bug fix mod. Sure it has issues, just like every other piece of software. There are no 100% bug-free RPGs.

 

[Latelistener]

 

[Sigourn]

I think it's more along the lines of videogames pretty much repeating themselves time after time while drawing from films as opposed to creating their own storytelling methods relying on interactivity.

One of the other challenges is when writers for games (or lead designers/project directors)* keep drawing solely on other video game stories for inspiration and reference vs. cross-pollinating from or examining other media that have had a much longer time to examine and create stories (and themes in certain genres).

One thing that would occasionally worry me with game narrative proposals was they were largely focused on mimicking another game's story/feel without taking a step back and considering other sources that could enrich it.

I mean, you are not wrong, but I firmly believe videogame storytelling will never evolve if people do nothing but keep copying films. And by "copying", I mean inspiration. Likewise, I wouldn't want developers to keep getting inspiration from other videogames, especially when they are the more cinematic ones that really do nothing to evolve the medium's storytelling.

To draw a basic comparison, it's as if videogames were still in the early stage of filmed theather, i.e. copying an existing medium to tell their stories as opposed to evolving on their own, like films did with the use of different shots, camera angles, field sizes, etc. I think the biggest advancement in this regard was allowing the player to choose their own path in stories. Something like New Vegas (just to mention the most popular RPG in this regard) allowing you to pick between three different factions and an independent ending. The issue with this kind of storytelling is that "choice", for the most part, is usually considered enough, without paying much attention to the actual development of said stories.

 

[2house2fly]

New Vegas was perfectly playable after December of 2010. Additionally, the lousy launch (that Brian Fargo claims they themselves contributed to by moving the release date up) didn't stop them from completing the DLC plan.

I've also heard from more than one source that all the fondness for New Vegas is a source of bitterness at Bethesda.

this makes no sense to me. Hardcore Fallout fans like New Vegas more, but Fallout 3 is more popular. The fondness for New Vegas comes from a loud minority. Besides that, if people really did like New Vegas more than 3 then surely they'd hire Obsidian on to make another oneand rake in the free money and praise. Big financial decisions about entertainment products don't get made out of bitterness.

I remain convinced that there was no New Vegas 2 because New Vegas's bugginess and jankiness risked tarnishing the brand, and because Bethesda got big enough to not need or want to farm it out

 

[Martyr]

Chris Avellone it would be awesome if you could answer this question: what are your 5 favorite RPGs?

I thought I'd ask since I'm always interested in such things and we already know Josh Sawyer's top 5 RPGs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ium6wq2LSSM
( for those who don't want to watch the video because of annoyingly loud german voice-over: Pool of Radiance, Darklands, Fallout, Baldur's Gate 2 and Battle Brothers )

 

[Nano]

I remain convinced that there was no New Vegas 2 because New Vegas's bugginess and jankiness risked tarnishing the brand

Yeah, this totally makes sense when you consider the fact that Bethesda deliberately shortened New Vegas's QA time.

 

[Fairfax]

Chris Avellone it would be awesome if you could answer this question: what are your 5 favorite RPGs?

Might've changed, but it used to be:

Wasteland
Chrono Trigger
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
Fallout
Final Fantasy 6

In no particular order, except for Wasteland being his favourite. He doesn't consider System Shock 2 an RPG, otherwise it'd be #2.

 

[Martyr]

Chris Avellone it would be awesome if you could answer this question: what are your 5 favorite RPGs?

Might've changed, but it used to be:

Wasteland
Chrono Trigger
Ultima Underworld
Fallout
Final Fantasy 6

In no particular order, except for Wasteland being his favourite. He doesn't consider System Shock 2 an RPG, otherwise it'd be #2.

oh, has he already answered that question?
but yeah, might have changed, we'll see.
and I also don't consider SS2 and Deus Ex pure RPGs and I wouldn't include them in my top RPGs list, otherwise Deus Ex would share #1 with Fallout.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I remain convinced that there was no New Vegas 2 because New Vegas's bugginess and jankiness risked tarnishing the brand

Yeah, this totally makes sense when you consider the fact that Bethesda deliberately shortened New Vegas's QA time.

Yeah I also heard that every night after people from Obsidian left the office, Todd Howard was sneaking in and making all the bugs in a first place.

 

[J_C]

Yeah and Kingmaker was perfectly playable since page 100 of the Codex thread, except we're now at page 350 and they've just announced next patch has over 1,000 fixes.

I bought New Vegas on release and gave up in November because I got fed up with the bugs. After the patch in December, I was able to complete it just fine with no issues I can remember. Since then, I've completed the fully patched version twice with no issues.

Oh don't act dense, you're smarter than this. Just because one person has no issues with the game, doesn't mean the game has no issues. Especially if the game is a non-linear sandbox where everybody has a different experience and does things in different order. Modders have been patching F:NV well into mid 2010s.

I have managed to finish the game without any serious bugs AT LAUNCH! (seriously)

I are winner.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah and Kingmaker was perfectly playable since page 100 of the Codex thread, except we're now at page 350 and they've just announced next patch has over 1,000 fixes.

I bought New Vegas on release and gave up in November because I got fed up with the bugs. After the patch in December, I was able to complete it just fine with no issues I can remember. Since then, I've completed the fully patched version twice with no issues.

Oh don't act dense, you're smarter than this. Just because one person has no issues with the game, doesn't mean the game has no issues. Especially if the game is a non-linear sandbox where everybody has a different experience and does things in different order. Modders have been patching F:NV well into mid 2010s.

I have managed to finish the game without any serious bugs AT LAUNCH! (seriously)

I are winner.

Meanwhile for a lot of people this was the F:NV experience right after launching the game.