Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[rusty_shackleford]

i don't even remember the tunnelers and i probably finished FNV+DLCs about 20 times.

scary spooky things that pop out of the ground

 

[Latelistener]

Chris Avellone, I think someone, probably you, said that Bethesda most likely won't trust a Fallout spin-off to another studio ever again. What is the reason for that? After all, New Vegas was a huge success both financially (for Bethesda) and critically.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Chris Avellone, I think someone, probably you, said that Bethesda most likely won't trust a Fallout spin-off to another studio ever again. What is the reason for that? After all, New Vegas was a huge success both financially (for Bethesda) and critically.

Because it made them look bad

 

[Feargus Jewhart]

Chris Avellone, I think someone, probably you, said that Bethesda most likely won't trust a Fallout spin-off to another studio ever again. What is the reason for that? After all, New Vegas was a huge success both financially (for Bethesda) and critically.

Because it made them look bad

That's not very difficult, now is it? Comparatively, they did give out the Elder Scrolls license for an online game. They also have the Adventures franchise (Redguard and Battlespire) and Blades. Unfortunately most IPR owners give Obsidian the rights for only one game, no matter how well it performs.

It would be easy to say that they are too good at it, but it seems more and more like Obsidian is quite difficult to work with and is not worth the hassle. It seems like they go over the budget, don't really communicate with the IPR owner, don't follow production schedules and their word is not very reliable.

They also seem to prefer strictly hierarchical management styles that follow the classic management styles. Which means that no one dares to question the managers, due to fear or respect. These managers also order their employees to perform and they themselves have underlying motivations they don't disclose. Which is a shame, since their games are usually quite good, despite the management style rather than due to it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Chris Avellone, I think someone, probably you, said that Bethesda most likely won't trust a Fallout spin-off to another studio ever again. What is the reason for that? After all, New Vegas was a huge success both financially (for Bethesda) and critically.

Because it made them look bad

That's not very difficult, now is it? Comparatively, they did give out the Elder Scrolls license for an online game.

ESO was created by Zenimax who owns Bethesda.

 

[Feargus Jewhart]

ESO was created by Zenimax who owns Bethesda.

True and usually the parent company owns the IPR so in that regard you are correct. BUT Bethesda is a Zenimax cash cow in all meanings of the word, so it's not like they'd let just anyone touch their trademarks easily. EVEN if it's another subsidiary of their own, that'd be incredibly incompetent.

The production of TESO began somewhere around 2008-2009 (they announced in 2010 that they're working on an unannounced MMO, but were formed in 2007 and chose an engine in 2008. TESO is their only release to date.). Fallout New Vegas started production also in 2008-2009, so those two productions were decided around the same time. Only one of the projects got a continuation.

 

[Feargus Jewhart]

Also I forgot to add to that, for legal reasons companies start a holding company that owns the IP. This is to protect it in day-to-day business. Zenimax was founded by the same dudes who founded Bethesda Softworks, so those two are led by the same people.

Why they founded a separate company to release TESO under is a financial and legal, basically had it flopped it wouldn't affect Bethesda that much.

 

[Latelistener]

Why they founded a separate company to release TESO under is a financial and legal, basically had it flopped it wouldn't affect Bethesda that much.

I'd rate that with "Stop Posting", but I don't have it.

Zenimax founded a separate studio (Zenimax Online Studio) because they received an investment from Providence Equity Partners Inc. back in 2007 to developed an online division:

ZeniMax Media has announced the closing of a USD 300 million investment by Providence Equity Partners Inc. for convertible preferred stock of the Company.

The proceeds of the investment will be used to fund future growth, increase game development and publishing, facilitate acquisitions, and finance massively multiplayer online games.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/zenimax-obtains-300-million-investment

Bethesda had no experience with online games at the moment, so they called Matt Firor (ex-Mythic, responsible for Dark Age of Camelot) to lead it (and who in turn took some other ex-Mythic people).

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone, I think someone, probably you, said that Bethesda most likely won't trust a Fallout spin-off to another studio ever again. What is the reason for that? After all, New Vegas was a huge success both financially (for Bethesda) and critically.

I believe Todd Howard said they have the studio capacity to handle it internally on their own from now on, but I'd need to dig up the exact quote (I believe he said as much on stage at E3).

EDIT: Correction: It was said in the Guardian interview with Todd and Pete Hines.

Handling a franchise internally also gives one more control over it as well (which I don't fault anyone for wanting).

I also don't believe everyone at Bethesda even wanted another company to do a "New Vegas" in the first place - they wanted to keep it all in-house from the get-go.

One strong counterargument to keeping it solely in-house at the time was there would be a long period of franchise silence between F3 and F4, and having something to keep the franchise alive and in the public eye in the interim was a good plan (and I agree).

But that said, I don't think it dismisses your question - why not do it anyway? And that I couldn't answer - speaking for myself, if I had a franchise I loved (and I think there are many people at Bethesda who genuinely love Fallout), I would be reluctant to pimp it out - but not completely against it if I thought the studio could do a good job.

Now you could make all sorts of counter-arguments surrounding that (and people have), but I'm just giving a point of view as to (perhaps) why.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah I also heard the explanation that it makes no sense for them to outsource Fallout because they've expanded to large enough capacity to juggle couple of games at the same time. Ie, they now have 76, Starfield and TES6 lined up.

 

[CyberWhale]

(and I think there are many people at Bethesda who genuinely love Fallout)

The same way an abusive husband loves his battered wife.

 

[Sigourn]

Chris Avellone Do you think writing is usually overrated in videogames, i.e. perfectly average writing is often praised as great writing?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone Do you think writing is usually overrated in videogames, i.e. perfectly average writing is often praised as great writing?

I think game writing is a very young medium, and as such, doesn't have the same internal comparisons as other media (and for games, it's less about the writing and more about the "storytelling" - audio, visual, etc.).

So what could be average writing in a movie, book, or comic book can become a lot more impactful in a game because of the immersion and potentially, the ways you can interact with the story/writing.

I do think it's encouraging that a number of companies value strong writing/stories, and while it may be selfish of them (they know it impacts their review scores, and people don't "settle" for bad stories anymore), the fact they now take it into account as part of the process is great.

 

[Roguey]

How many decades of games with stories must we go through before it's considered not young?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

How many decades of games with stories must we go through before it's considered not young?

I think volume would be better measurement unit.

 

[Grauken]

How many decades of games with stories must we go through before it's considered not young?

It probably has more to do with the fact that in gaming people don't play classics, and often even don't know them, so how could they learn from them if the oldest game they've played is 5 years ago

 

[Sigourn]

I think it's more along the lines of videogames pretty much repeating themselves time after time while drawing from films as opposed to creating their own storytelling methods relying on interactivity.

 

[Roguey]

It probably has more to do with the fact that in gaming people don't play classics, and often even don't know them, so how could they learn from them if the oldest game they've played is 5 years ago

Consider how movies were from the 10s up until the 50s when old ones could be aired on television. It was pretty much impossible to watch old things.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Consider how movies were from the 10s up until the 50s when old ones could be aired on television. It was pretty much impossible to watch old things.

What? No it wasn't. At that time moviehouses bought, not rented, the actual film reels and kept them in a library. There were many, many cinemas that showed majority, if not exclusively, films that were older films the house had purchased 10, 20, or 30 years prior. This did generally mean that the shit-films sunk to the bottom and the cream rose to the top, but it was certainly possible for the Average Joe in 1947 to find a movie house showing Buster Keaton, Wizard of Oz, Gone with the Wind, etc.

 

[Chris Avellone]

How many decades of games with stories must we go through before it's considered not young?

I think volume would be better measurement unit.

I think it's a mixture of both, but I couldn't tell you the values - I do feel like time and pacing of releases is necessary to digest what's missing/desired, though - I feel 100 game stories across 20 years would be more impactful than 100 game stories released in a year, but that's an extreme example, and it's just my opinion.

However, hypocritically, I do often give advice to game writers (or any game developer): Get the first 100 potentially-weak creations out of your system as fast as possible (whether it's a story, animation, environment art, concept pieces), keep making stuff, see how it feels and plays, and the 101st attempt you may discover what you create surprises you (and resounds more strongly with others) - because you've gotten a lot of mistakes and bad creations/cliches out of your system.

I think it's more along the lines of videogames pretty much repeating themselves time after time while drawing from films as opposed to creating their own storytelling methods relying on interactivity.

One of the other challenges is when writers for games (or lead designers/project directors)* keep drawing solely on other video game stories for inspiration and reference vs. cross-pollinating from or examining other media that have had a much longer time to examine and create stories (and themes in certain genres).

One thing that would occasionally worry me with game narrative proposals was they were largely focused on mimicking another game's story/feel without taking a step back and considering other sources that could enrich it.

* Before you think this is a slam on Obsidian, it's not - this rarely happened except for Pillars (b/c of BG comparisons), but I think that was more part of the quest design guiding principles from level design based on examining BG quests and trying to echo them.

 

[Latelistener]

Yeah I also heard the explanation that it makes no sense for them to outsource Fallout because they've expanded to large enough capacity to juggle couple of games at the same time. Ie, they now have 76, Starfield and TES6 lined up.

It's been 7 years since TES V and people will have to wait another 7 years for TES VI. They sure could use a spin-off.

I don't really care about it, but I think the universe deserves better games than Oblivion and Skyrim.

 

[Fairfax]

But that said, I don't think it dismisses your question - why not do it anyway? And that I couldn't answer - speaking for myself, if I had a franchise I loved (and I think there are many people at Bethesda who genuinely love Fallout), I would be reluctant to pimp it out - but not completely against it if I thought the studio could do a good job.

In this case, it's more about another studio doing a better job.

 

[Wunderbar]

that's funny, but also kinda depressing.

 

[Latelistener]

So they hate a spin-off made in 18 months by a studio with no experience with Gamebryo, which managed to be better game than their own Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 (and they spent 5 years on each). Have they considered maybe.. working harder?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I find that tweet hard to believe, given that people in Bethesda would be perfectly aware that F:NV status as a cult classic only came to fruition after the modding community spend several years salvaging the game from its trainwreck of a launch. It's one of those odd games whose reputation at first was rather mixed, but only keeps growing as the years go by.

At the time it made perfect sense for them not to contract Obsidian for F:NV2, because F:NV quite simply was a mess.