Editorial Chris Avellone on Doing Planescape: Torment Successor

[Malpercio]

Just do it MCA!!!!

Do it! Do it! Do me! Do it!

 

[deuxhero]

The combat system could indeed be Pathfinder OGL based.

I was thinking more of 3.5's OGL rules (possibly with some of PF's OGL stuff pruned), PF screwed up more than it fixed, and the screw ups were well known during playtesting (Tumble through acrobatics is useless as you will never reach the DC consistently, so goodbye skirmishers).

 

[Marsal]

Am I the only one who wants the combat to be simple and "toned down"? We all know they (he) are going to fuck it up and/or spend too much time working on combat. Just focus on the story, character, dialogue and make combat simple.

I think combat is a huge part of gameplay in any RPG and prefer well done TB tactical combat (combatfag here), but PS:T is one game where I would treat combat as a necessary evil and just make it good enough to not get in the way of the rest of the game.

I'm thinking really simple combat, something like Warcraft 3, maybe with a couple more stats, skills and equipment slots. If you slow it down a bit (compared to WC3 fastest setting), tweak HP/damage ratio and number of enemies, you wouldn't even need to pause at all. You'd get a Diablo-with-party-and-much-less-loot-and-mobs combat. Would that be a horrible thing?

It would be reasonably tactical and fun, and you'd get it over with quickly, so you could read another wall of text and ponder profound questions about existence and shit. Might even draw some non-inclined crowd (not sure if good).

 

[Jasede]

PS:T would have worked just as well without any combat; that was my point earlier.

 

[Marsal]

Jasede Brofists this

Okay... so Pathfinder it is.

Spoiler

Just messing with you, bro

 

[Tigranes]

I disagree, mediocre as it was, it helped break up the tedium. Without combat all you have is a very well written dialogue, then another very well written dialogue, then another very well written dialogue... like an adventure game with only 2 puzzles. Besides, a lot of the flavour of PST came from its items and their combat uses, and how characterisation translated into it too. The combat just needed to be, well, better. (After all, it's not fundamentally different from BG/IWD combat, which does very well to carry those games.)

I'm fine with RTwP, turn based is great but I don't need every game to be TB.

 

[Marsal]

The combat just needed to be, well, better. (After all, it's not fundamentally different from BG/IWD combat, which does very well to carry those games.)

We all agree it needs to be better, but in what way? To make it more like BG (or ToEE), you need more items, more combat options, better designed encounters... Would you "risk it", go all out and assign a big chunk of your team and other resources to making good, tactical combat (and possibly end up with Arcanum's combat) or play it safe and just go for "simple, moderately tactical" combat?

I'd go for the slam-dunk (Feargus Brofists this)

 

[ironyuri]

What does this guy think he knows about Torment? Fuck that loser.

Give it to a professional team like Blizzard South.

 

[Black]

Playing PS:T for the combat...

If it's supposed to have combat, why not make it good instead of rtwp crap?

 

[markec]

That's not true, he is only outsourced for W2 part-time, work on South Park should be about finished as well. What else is there to do ?

He might be only working part time on W2 but he still wont start his own Kickstarter project as long he is working there. The reason is simple, it would look bad for him and W2 as it would look like he is not taking his job in W2 seriously. So even if he does have the time he will wait.

 

[asper]

Why a need to do the exact same thing again? Also I didn't see, insert actual gameplay this time around.

I'll never understand the fascination emos have with this game, it's PC gamers' equivalent of Final Fantasy VII with no action, an iconic game that meant something when they were suicidal teens.

To me it was a series of convoluted fetch quests and inane find the NPC to talk to situations, under a somewhat gothic and emo atmosphere that tried to sound deep so hard but meant nothing. Just like in Alpha Protocol, it has well written characters, but characters that get lost in their own narcissism, and it is all it has going for it. I'm not a teen, so I'm not looking for another gothic emo fetch quest clickfest to keep myself from suiciding.

This guy keeps talking and talking, but apart from characters, item descriptions and convoluted dialogue trees, whatever great game content has he done? Others don't talk all the time about what their pompous game design and philosophy theories are for some 12 years, and delivered actual games that played like ones.

While it is true that Torment is very weak in the gameplay department (it's more a kind of text adventure with graphics), to call it "gothic" or "emo" is complete nonsense, not to mention to compare it to FF7. Hint; "gothic" doesn not mean everything that isn't sword, sorcery, dragons kind of fantasy, and "emo" also does not apply to everything that isn't about upbeat, virtuous people saving the world. Where do you see narcissism in Torment's characters? I'm also at a loss where you find "pompous game design philosophies" in what Avellone said in the article. I really don't see why you need to constantly think in these bizarre generalizing associations.

I also see a lot of whining in this thread. I'll just say that if I get a game that has the same immersive strenght as Torment in writing, story, style, atmosphere and creativity, I don't care if the combat is a mix of a driving sim with a Street Fighter minigame with levels of pop-a-mole cover FPS.

 

[Infinitron]

If HHR isn't more careful people will catch on to the fact that he's a troll.

 

[asper]

PS:T would have worked just as well without any combat; that was my point earlier.

Leveling up and getting new items wouldn't be as fun without the combat, as bad as it is. I agree though that Torment would have worked extremely well as an isometric adventure game, however they would need to re-think a lot of the game structure.

 

[ironyuri]

If HHR isn't more careful people will catch on to the fact that he's a faggot.

 

[kaizoku]

Am I the only one who wants the combat to be simple and "toned down"? We all know they (he) are going to fuck it up and/or spend too much time working on combat. Just focus on the story, character, dialogue and make combat simple.

I think combat is a huge part of gameplay in any RPG and prefer well done TB tactical combat (combatfag here), but PS:T is one game where I would treat combat as a necessary evil and just make it good enough to not get in the way of the rest of the game.

I'm thinking really simple combat, something like Warcraft 3, maybe with a couple more stats, skills and equipment slots. If you slow it down a bit (compared to WC3 fastest setting), tweak HP/damage ratio and number of enemies, you wouldn't even need to pause at all. You'd get a Diablo-with-party-and-much-less-loot-and-mobs combat. Would that be a horrible thing?

It would be reasonably tactical and fun, and you'd get it over with quickly, so you could read another wall of text and ponder profound questions about existence and shit. Might even draw some non-inclined crowd (not sure if good).

u trollin?
The problem is exactly when they try to implement new combat systems.
The thing is... they don't need to invent any new combat now.
They can use OGL.

He might be only working part time on W2 but he still wont start his own Kickstarter project as long he is working there. The reason is simple, it would look bad for him and W2 as it would look like he is not taking his job in W2 seriously. So even if he does have the time he will wait.

Good point.
Damn Wasteland getting in the way of nice things.... Oct 2013 (if there are no delays)

 

[Turjan]

The problem is exactly when they try to implement new combat systems.
The thing is... they don't need to invent any new combat now.
They can use OGL.

While they could use standard OGL as is, it's a bit hard to balance. Standard OGL has a very narrow range of levels where combat is balanced with regard to opponents. If the monster is a few levels higher, the players might not be able to touch it, and the other way round. You can solve this problem by making the game strictly linear, introduce strict level scaling, or ease the system steepness somewhat (AD&D2E was much more lenient in this regard). Of course, the OGL allows for the latter, but that might also go horribly wrong.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Why a need to do the exact same thing again? Also I didn't see, insert actual gameplay this time around.

I'll never understand the fascination emos have with this game, it's PC gamers' equivalent of Final Fantasy VII with no action, an iconic game that meant something when they were suicidal teens.

To me it was a series of convoluted fetch quests and inane find the NPC to talk to situations, under a somewhat gothic and emo atmosphere that tried to sound deep so hard but meant nothing. Just like in Alpha Protocol, it has well written characters, but characters that get lost in their own narcissism, and it is all it has going for it. I'm not a teen, so I'm not looking for another gothic emo fetch quest clickfest to keep myself from suiciding.

This guy keeps talking and talking, but apart from characters, item descriptions and convoluted dialogue trees, whatever great game content has he done? Others don't talk all the time about what their pompous game design and philosophy theories are for some 12 years, and delivered actual games that played like ones.

While it is true that Torment is very weak in the gameplay department (it's more a kind of text adventure with graphics), to call it "gothic" or "emo" is complete nonsense, not to mention to compare it to FF7. Hint; "gothic" doesn not mean everything that isn't sword, sorcery, dragons kind of fantasy, and "emo" also does not apply to everything that isn't about upbeat, virtuous people saving the world. Where do you see narcissism in Torment's characters? I'm also at a loss where you find "pompous game design philosophies" in what Avellone said in the article. I really don't see why you need to constantly think in these bizarre generalizing associations.

I also see a lot of whining in this thread. I'll just say that if I get a game that has the same immersive strenght as Torment in writing, story, style, atmosphere and creativity, I don't care if the combat is a mix of a driving sim with a Street Fighter minigame with levels of pop-a-mole cover FPS.

I think I do have a point, because ultimately, most of the game is about morbidly-designed and depressed characters talking about themselves endlessly, and the gameplay really isn't good. These points are generally agreed upon and are not even controversial.

I'm not talking about what he says in this article, but I have read a ton of interviews of his over the years, and what it looks to me is that this guy is mostly talk.

Playing Torment after hearing about it for years and years non stop was just a sheer disappointment for me. I don't understand why he isn't trying to make a deep RPG, but using another setting. If the exact same themes come up a second time it will never have the same impact it once did in a best case scenario.

 

[asper]

morbidly-designed: only TNO and Morte.

depressed: I don't think TNO is 'depressed', he is fighting resiliently throughout the game. Dunno which other characters you could call "depressed". The theme of the game is guilt and punishment, no wonder characters are struggling, which does not immediately mean they are "depressed".

talking about themselves: point of the game is partly the exploration of the characters. TNO is asking them about themselves, what else should they talk about? Politics and religion?

The theme of the game doesn't suit you, that's ok.

 

[Angthoron]

Let's make a Kickstarter and transfer Planescape rights from Hasbro/Wizards to Codex/MCA. Can't cost more than a couple of millions at this point.

 

[ironyuri]

higher game has risen pretends to be a christian troll but he cannot into themes of guilt & punishment, suffering leading to redemption.

 

[Kalin]

Personally, I enjoy Planescape: Torment precisely because it is such a story-centred and, above all, text-heavy game. Without its abundant, well-written dialogue and text descriptions, it would be little more than a Baldur's Gate clone in a superior setting but without the interesting fights. As for a possible sequel, I always tend to recall this ominous quote from MCA:

What would I do differently if I was doing Torment today? Today, I would have had more NPC responses be reflected in animation and facial expression rather than just text. I'd also like a lot of dialogue options be represented visually, instead of described.

This, in my opinion, would completely kill Planescape: Torment. I am no enemy of advanced graphics per se, beautiful backgrounds and characters definitely help to set the mood of the game (and Torment really excelled at this), but intimate details are better conveyed through text since imagination is a far more powerful tool than animation will ever be. Furthermore, extensive dialogue trees offer the greatest amount of choice and, dare I say it, immersion to the player, and also explain the choices much better than some dumbed-down systems involving quick-time events and conversation wheels.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

higher game has risen pretends to be a christian troll but he cannot into themes of guilt & punishment, suffering leading to redemption.

Game equivalent to Les Misérables, this is not.

 

[laclongquan]

What do you think when you remember Torment?

Not combat. Baldur's gate and icewind dale have better combat. So I dont really care much if he retain RTwP or TB. Real time action will be troublesome but if I can deal with Bloodlines' combat, I can deal with it.

It's the memory of wonder. You can never be sure what you are walking into when you click your character into that portal. Will it be a humongous city? Or a big ass boneframe? Or a grey and dark maze? You can never be sure. So a multitude of very interesting locations are one factor. Check.

It's the memory of recovering memory in various location. Of trying to figure out whatever the hell does it mean. Various personalities of incarnations. So amnesia and recover memories are another factor. Check.

Immortal? Not so much. There's a few scene of memorable qualities link with that aspect, but not enough. Check.

Item with stories? Fuck yeah. I remember the Robe/Eye of Verna, or the Mechanus' Cannon, etc... Much better than items in IWD or BG. Do you remember the first collectible teeth for Morte? or the stories with each circle of Dakkon's Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon. Check.

Writings of highest quality? oh yeah. There's not much like it later. Bloodlines, maybe. And check.

So he makes a very good list. Worthy to get drool over.

 

[ironyuri]

higher game has risen pretends to be a christian troll but he cannot into themes of guilt & punishment, suffering leading to redemption.

Game equivalent to Les Misérables, this is not.

please stick to things you can easily comprehend, like bill oreilly, my friend.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

higher game has risen pretends to be a christian troll but he cannot into themes of guilt & punishment, suffering leading to redemption.

Game equivalent to Les Misérables, this is not.

Pfft, what are you gonna reference next, Crime & Punishment?