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Civ4: A painfully mediocre game.

racofer

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Oh my. Look at how much cursing in one post. And you got the balls to call me a "edgy hipster fucking piece of shit".

I disagree with your point of view, I tell why I disagree with it, you reply with a one liner, then call me a lazy shit and it's all my doing.

Name calling: the refuge of the inept.
 

Marsal

Arcane
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,304
The OP is likely a troll, but I'll respond anyway. Why would you use marines to attack a fortified city? Marines are meant to be used for amphibious attack and as a counter to machineguns and artillery. Use infantry (who are cheaper) and have a bonus against gunpowder units.

As for minor differences and similar play styles, not true. While differences are not earth shattering at first glance, they are substantial and influence your play-style a great deal. For example, the Dutch will be excellent on a map with large bodies of water (especially a new world type of maps) and benefit from a peaceful game. If you are playing a land map with Dutch, you will mostly likely lose to an aggressive opponent (ie. Mongol/Egyptian neighbour with horse resource), especially if you have no copper (or iron, but it might be revealed to late to matter) but you might survive if you play with Mayans (Holkan doesn't require copper or iron). Good example are the Romans. You will usually want to rush to iron working, find iron resource and pump out Praetorians (they pretty much own every other unit until crossbowmen and longbowmen). If you have catapults, they own every unit until macemen. And that is a loooong time to be owned :)

You will rely on specialists to generate research (and great people) in games with Gandhi, while you'll look to earn as much gold from trade with Hannibal to spend on research or buy technology from others. You can also spend commerce income on espionage points to steal the tech and sabotage other players.

Traits and starting tech dictate the early game too (of course the starting position and resources are also important). Try to get early religion or get to bronze working and chop some wonders? Let your capital grow, whip some settlers and take the large area of the map? Try to get alphabet and trade techs? Go for library and get the early great scientist? Get to horse riding and take your neighbours cities? Oracle slingshot to Civil Service and massive bonus to your capital?

The graet thing in Civ 4 is that you can do any of these with any civilization, but "the few minor bonuses" make the difference between building the Pyramids or being left with 30 turns of hammers converted to gold (in other words wasted).


Tanks easily beat longbowmen in all but extreme situations. Given that longbowmen have 6 strength and tanks 28, plus the tanks have city raider promotions available it would take some huge cultural bonus to offset the difference.

Here's an example:
Let's say that longbowmen are fortified in a hill city, with 3 defense promotions. That's 25%(fortified) + 25%(hill) +25%(city defense) + 50%(hill bonus for archers) + 75% (defensive promotions) = 200%

Let's say that the city has a 100% cultural bonus. Tank has no promotions. That's 300% bonus for longbowmen. Longbowmen also have 1 first strike.

Attack strength = 28
Defense strength = 6 + 6*3 = 24

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strateg ... lained.php

That means about 65% chance of tank winning the battle. And this is an extreme situation.

As to big stack of longbowmen "owning" stack of tanks with no defenses, yes, it could happen, if the numbers are something like 7:1 in favor of longbowmen (more if the tanks get to blitz first). Tanks cost 180 hammers, longbowmen 50 (plus the upkeep cost of a stack of 30-40 longbowmen every turn), so if you want to waste hammers, go ahead, "own" the poor tanks.

The key in Civ 4 is to have a good mix of forces in a stack (and a big enough stack). If you eliminate city defenses (cultural, walls, castle) by bombarding or sabotage (spy), "attack" units (swordsmen, macemen, tanks, all with city raider promotions) easily dispatch of defenders (even from later era, ie. macemen are still good against musketmen and grenadiers). If you do some splash damage and weaken the defenders and remember to bring medic promoted unit, the invasion will go even smoother :)
 

Helton

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racofer said:
Oh my. Look at how much cursing in one post. And you got the balls to call me a "edgy hipster fucking piece of shit".

I disagree with your point of view, I tell why I disagree with it, you reply with a one liner, then call me a lazy shit and it's all my doing.

Name calling: the refuge of the inept.

lol preservation for posterity.
 

racofer

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Helton said:
racofer said:
Oh my. Look at how much cursing in one post. And you got the balls to call me a "edgy hipster fucking piece of shit".

I disagree with your point of view, I tell why I disagree with it, you reply with a one liner, then call me a lazy shit and it's all my doing.

Name calling: the refuge of the inept.

lol preservation for posterity.

You better do it you stupid cunt.
 

Helton

Arcane
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This thread has inspired me to take a break from taking a break from studying for finals by playing Diablo II and instead play Civ IV. Also, music is awesome in Civ IV.
 

AzraelCC

Scholar
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Jan 2, 2008
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309
The OP is clearly stupid. True, there is a chance that a stack of longbowmen can destroy a tank, but how many times will that situation arise both in single player and multiplayer? You have to be pretty far behind or your enemies pretty far behind for that to happen. Besides, this is a 4X game, it isn't all about the combat. As for Civilizations having minor differences, what are you comparing Civ4 to? The previous Civilizations? Even Master of Orion had a very short period before the races began to play the same. The only other strategy game that I know of in which the bonuses/differences play out until the late game is Dominions 3.

I'm fine with the promotions as a way to tailor your troops, but some form of "save promotion order" button could ease the admittedly micromanagement heavy aspects of unit promotions.
 
Joined
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Azrael the cat said:
racofer said:
Niggers take military promotions seriously, after all, it's they can aim for in life.

So what is your girlfriend, your wife or your mother that left you for a rich black guy with a massive penis?
Keep on pushin' that lefty bullshit brotha, mad propz.
 

racofer

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Azrael the cat said:
So what is your girlfriend, your wife or your mother that left you for a rich black guy with a massive penis?

Oh crap, you owned me know. Nothing smart to reply to that, I'm so ashamed and defeated. I will stick my head in the ground and let you walk by.
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
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I didn't like Civ 4 for the same reason. The combat model wasn't fun. If the combat is not fun you basically just set buildings and research goals and keep clicking next turn.
 

CrimsonAngel

Prophet
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Oct 2, 2007
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
My problem with CIV4 is that i came from playing GalCiv2 so CIV 4 in my mind lacked a lot of things i loved.

The AI, the Different races actually being different, unit maker and so on.

CIV4 is not a bad game only not very interesting to me any more.
 

Kaiserin

Liturgist
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Mar 14, 2008
Messages
4,082
The only time I don't enjoy the game is in the later eras on a large map. The sheer amount of forces to keep up with is entertaining and challenging at first, but it quickly descends into painstaking tedium when major wars break out. Of course, I find this to be an interesting parallel of modern warfare between two large nations, as it generally leads to a 'cold war' with the other players if you haven't weakened them very significantly by this point.

I still haven't played fall from heaven, as I lost my copy of Civ 4 a while back. :(
 

Shuma

Scholar
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Feb 26, 2008
Messages
208
There's also an option to auto-promote your units and not ever worry about it, if you like.

On a fundamental level though, I agree. Combat in the Civ games has ALWAYS been lacking, Galciv included. It's a matter of focus. Combat has become less and less important in the Civ games as they add more victory conditions. It's entire possible to Sim City out and manage diplomacy to get in as few wars as possible if you don't like combat. Not to mention the AI concerns with a bad tactical AI.

It's interesting someone brought up Galciv because you can spend days custom building ships that has no effect on gameplay whatsoever. While I appreciate the level of detail in their ship designer and some truly amazing ships have been made, in the end, it's totally unneccesary. At least the promotion system in Civ IV has a noticable effect on gameplay, even more so in Fall from Heaven. Of course, they specifically talked about why they didn't include tactical battles in Galciv. Space Empires V is a great example of a game with terrible tactical battles that ruin the whole game because the AI can't handle them.

That said, I personally enjoy the strategic-with-tactical-battles model of the TW series or Master of Magic/Orion II more.
 

Damned Registrations

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You're really cheating yourself if you've tried civ 4 but not FFH. A lot of the races are radically different (Elves can build improvements on top of forests without destroying them, vampires can build vampires and feast on city populations for xp, the dwarves get bonuses/penalties depending on the size of their vault compared to their number of cities, etc.), and the balance is totally changed. Combat is less of a chore too, for a few reasons, like spells ending things quickly and the erebus map style being full of chokepoints that let you prevent an invasion by blockading instead of having to chase down annoying fuckers sacrificed to pillage some random farm. It's a bitch trying to invade the ai on harder difficulties though. They really like building cities on hills and filling them with archers, which the other ai's feed kills to so they can fend off fucking dragons if you don't have some magic to take them down a peg.
 

Destroid

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I love moo2, but have you ever played a battle with 50+ ships a side? It would take hours to play yourself, and unfortunately there is no auto-resolve feature (although you can select it on or off for the whole game) so even with the ai playing both sides it could take 5-10 minutes to play out while you do nothing.
 

Shuma

Scholar
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Feb 26, 2008
Messages
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Destroid said:
I love moo2, but have you ever played a battle with 50+ ships a side? It would take hours to play yourself, and unfortunately there is no auto-resolve feature (although you can select it on or off for the whole game) so even with the ai playing both sides it could take 5-10 minutes to play out while you do nothing.

Oh yeah, plus late game the first volley is devastating and the fun of the tactics part of the game diminishes greatly. In MoM, you usually level up RPG style with a few killer stacks and rampage the map with them. Same could be said to a lesser extent about the TW games: huge upgraded stacks obliterating all in their path. These games aren't without their weaknesses. This isn't even mentioning that Total War is really a tactical game with enough strategic wrapping to give the battles a greater purpose.

I definitely like how Civ IV and Galciv 2 focus on their core strategic gameplay and complement it with great AI. That's only possible because there isn't a separate tactical engine that totally blows strategic planning out of the water.
 
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Civ 4 is a shitty game. First of all it's 3D, which is pretty much meaningless and a pain in the ass since you can't see shit, it's a resource hog and crashes often, the "light" tone is annoying and immersion-breaking, all same religions is a cheap cop-out, combat is utterly fucking broken beyond belief(And if you think otherwise you're welcome to explain why was it changed three fucking times in subsequent patches). If you want to play a game with the "Civilization" in the name, play 2. If you want to play a game "like Civilization", play SMAC.
 

Biges

Novice
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Oct 31, 2008
Messages
24
I agree that I'm pretty disappointed with Civ4, it feels like very shallow game. The 3D engine actually makes everything more messy, harder to navigate.

But maybe I'm just spoiled with Paradox strategy games.
 

spectre

Arcane
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Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,442
all same religions is a cheap cop-out
Disagree. I think this was a conscious decision, and a good one too. This way, they both have religious fundies off their asses, and they can semi-accurately portray religion - it's a tool to make your citizens happy (opium for the masses), and all the big and tiny differences we know from our world come depend on the civics you choose to go with your religion of choice.
I personally dig this idea that even taoists can be fundamentalist zealots, depending on how the religion is used in politics.

combat is utterly fucking broken beyond belief(And if you think otherwise you're welcome to explain why was it changed three fucking times in subsequent patches).
Still it is better than combat in Civ 1, 2 and 3. At least this time you can . However, I agree that 90% victory chances waaay to often. I don't mind this and just use air support and to get me through.

And, oh you want explanation? Games that focus on multiplayer (and Civ 4 now does so more than ever, becuse the devs finally decided to move their bums and fine tune the game for it) tend to undergo lots of rule tweaks just to keep the game enjoyable. It's called balancing, and I reckon you already know this. Same thing was in Diablo 2, Same thing in Dawn of War, nothing to be butthurt about.

Now, if I were to defend Civ 4 vanilla, it would be half assed. Unmodded game is pretty plain indeed. But whip out a mod or two, and it starts to shine then.
But why the hate for 3d, elitist buggery again?
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,442
What do you mean released? Playable version was shipped with Civ 4 expansion, and I heard they've been tinkering with it since. It's fan made, so I owuldn't expect the definite final version (-:
 

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