Vapourware Codexian Game Development Thread

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Actual shit developers should care about:
>not making sewer levels
>cutting the crap with critters like spiders, bats, scorpions, or rats.

For fucks sake, what in the hell makes them think anybody wants more of that.

whoa, it seems this was written explicitly for my current game, which features a sewer level and lots of rats.
However, my answer is this: I feel safer with a bunch of rats rather a bunch of spider bots equipped with submachine guns.
What could possibly do a Long sword +1 to these guys, damn, and i have lots of long swords in my game

Hi! I come from the future.
Here's your pic after trying to melee the spider bots:

Spoiler

Here's your pic after beating the game:

Spoiler

Sorry for doxxing you!

 

[vlzvl]

At least, rats have their own simulator by now:

rats are still wanted

 

[AdolfSatan]

Why is a cop casting a flame spell in a rat simulator?

And then you're greeted with spider bots equipped with submachine guns.

An exception could be made in such a case because the spiders do represent an actual threat; my gripe is mainly with critters that add nothing of value to the gameplay and become a chore to kill.

whoa, it seems this was written explicitly for my current game, which features a sewer level and lots of rats.

Now is the time to ask yourself: have you ever enjoyed any of those at all?

What kind of demented psychopath exacts joy out of a zubat cave?

 

[vlzvl]

Now is the time to ask yourself: have you ever enjoyed any of those at all?

What kind of demented psychopath exacts joy out of a zubat cave?

Interesting question.
About the critters, i do not think of them as "threats". They are just residents of this cave, its their home.
You might think they do not have value, but you are invading their site and they are becoming hostile.
The same for spiders or giant spiders.
For me, value is realism. It would be unrealisting just throwing here and there some evil guys.
So, rats are only for killing, i agree. XP for killing is valuable. D&D itself and obviously CRPGs are full of monsters without purpose.
Eye of the Beholder II itself was an endless grinder for monsters without purpose and still not evil (wolves, ants, bees).
The party is usually the "threat" you are referring to.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

An exception could be made in such a case because the spiders do represent an actual threat; my gripe is mainly with critters that add nothing of value to the gameplay and become a chore to kill.

Actually there's more to that than meets the eye and more than you could ever communicate in a tutorial demo or just a demo in a proper way -- in fact it's a massive bitch to balance too, which makes me constantly tweak the enemy stats and AI to make sure they're not overpowered and at the same time pose an actual threat: my game doesn't allow healing or replenishment of ammo and it's a design decision since day one, so taking any damage or wasting more ammo than you can afford is going to eventually backfire. I had to implement repair stations to allow the players to apply upgrades, which are slight stat boosts and a few extra armor plates, during the mission (and to make sure that the last mission doesn't end up in dozens of rooms and corridors with nothing but enemy encounters), but overall there's a harsh task for the player to manage his resources because he never knows what to expect later in the game (and that's why running away from the enemies until they leave you alone is a valid tactic). This is also a big pain in the ass to balance properly, and also a pain to communicate. While the game is rather simple and doesn't qualify as an RPG, it's nice to know that a typical popamole gamer will waste all of their ammo after a few battles and end up facing a tough boss with no other option but to ram him to the death.

At the same time the level design is not very linear and there are plenty of opportunities to gather upgrades and apply them to make the process less painful or use other mechanics (ability to destroy doors, abuse of the enemy AI, luring enemies onto landmines etc.) to beat levels faster if you know where to look and where to go. Also it's rather short, which won't end up in extreme butthurt since the game purges one's saves when the save points are expired. Imagine getting that after 20+ hours...

TBH I'm finishing one of the 2 segments planned in the demo right now and can't help but wonder how it will go, since I'll submit this thing to a local Indie Cup and will most likely have to watch how these poor bastards screech 'grr what a shit game wheres my awsum buttahn why fgx arnt liek in a $150k game' and similar shit before getting assraped by the boss, which will be true incline.

 

[AdolfSatan]

Fuckin' A, that's how I like my games, consequential to the choices one makes.

post

I see your point. But then again, if one is concerned about depicting such an environment realistically —as much as one might in the game world—, would it even make sense for an hardened fighter to gain any kind of experience from slaying such foes? All he'd be doing'd be denting his sword and straining his hand.
An eternal boss rush would feel soulless, I agree, but perhaps there's a middle-ground to be struck, where the incidence the player makes in these smaller creatures' lives is depicted without going overboard with and endless barrage of shit-tier fights. Perhaps after watching you psychotically massacre half of his friends without batting an eye, an instinct to shirk from you is awoken. After all, rats tends to steer clear where the smell of a cat lingers.

While obviously important, I wouldn't hold the basis that D&D provides as a flawless gem to be copied in every facet.
It all boils down to a difference in tastes in any case I guess; I hate grinding and can't conceive ever enjoying it, but the amount of sales for MMOs and traditional JRPGs clearly shows there's a considerable amount of people who do.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

BTW, folks, there's an Atari remakes jam planned soon-ish, anyone wishes to bring some incline?
I'll probably join if I finish the demo quickly enough and will need a distraction for a day or two, already got Dragonstomper or Adventure on my radar.
https://itch.io/jam/highsight-1

Zed Alchemist

 

[Duckard]

Sewer rats can be interesting too. Let's say you're asked by the thieves guild to investigate why their branch in a certain city has gone quiet. Naturally, their HQ is in the underground sewers. After a bit of exploration, you notice that some of the rats are bigger, more intelligent, and much more aggressive than others. Not only do they attack you, but they also seem to be hunting the other rats. Only they aren't killing the smaller rats, they're dragging them off somewhere. Clearly the rodents are being controlled by some external force. You decide to follow one of these rat hunting parties. Or maybe you get caught and have to cut your way through. Or maybe you decide that's the easier way from the get go. It doesn't matter. All paths lead to the guild's inner sanctum, which the psychic parasite that took over the sewers has made its home. Looks like the thieves stole something that was better left alone. Maybe you battle it and its hordes of rat minions and tear the whole place down. Maybe you reason with it and let it live. Maybe you even help it relocate to a nice large swamp. But either way, you fight a fuckton of rats tho. Then you go back the the main guild and get a fat sack of gold for your trouble. Or maybe you find the place in shambles, and learn from the dying quest-giver that someone has been targeting the thieves and their associates from the beginning.

The problem is a lot of games just have poor justification for why you are being attacked by all manner of woodland creatures. They exist just because they need to exist in order to give the player something to do because that is the expectation. In that case, yes, a different enemy type can be a better choice. But if you're making a grindy game that's just about watching the numbers go up, then the player will probably be okay with whatever enemy types you put in anyway.

What kind of demented psychopath exacts joy out of a zubat cave?

I quite enjoyed the sewers and rats in Dark Souls.

 

[AdolfSatan]

Wasn't that somewhat of a sub-quest in PST?
In any case, that' the point of my complainte: the unjustified aboundance of such scenarios. It obviously wouldn't be an annoyance were it presented like that.

BTW, folks, there's an Atari remakes jam planned soon-ish, anyone wishes to bring some incline?
I'll probably join if I finish the demo quickly enough and will need a distraction for a day or two, already got Dragonstomper or Adventure on my radar.
https://itch.io/jam/highsight-1

Sweet. If anybody's got a cool idea and needs someone to provide graphics or music, hit me up, I've got a bit of free time.

 

[Nathaniel3W]

The rats I hated most were in Ultima 9. For some reason I just could not kill those little bastards. I rolled a warrior for my first character, got up to the first rat in the game, clicked on him at least 30 times, saw my character swing at least 30 times, and that little bastard killed me by biting off 1 hp at a time. I think now it must have been a hitbox problem. The rats are really low and the sword's hitbox is at waist height regardless of where you're looking. Here I am nearly 20 years later and I still hate that game.

I just did a Google search for some Ultima 9 images and saw that someone on the Codex did a really detailed Let's Play of it. I need to go watch and throw some of my own complaints into the comments.

I'm sure there must have been some rats I didn't mind fighting in a game somewhere, but they're generic and forgettable enough that the only rats I remember are those rats I hated in Ultima 9. At best, rats can serve as a low-risk XP filler, the same as wolves and goblins in other games. I do notice and appreciate when a game actually invents unique creatures to fill that role. That makes the game feel less generic. And if anyone has an example of really awesome rat enemies, let me know. I'd love to learn how someone takes a crappy generic enemy and makes it memorable.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

And if anyone has an example of really awesome rat enemies, let me know

Do Skaven count?

 

[Nathaniel3W]

ERYFKRAD I had to Google that. You can tell I'm not a Warhammer player. Based on the images that came up, I was going to guess that Skaven must be a replacement for orcs instead of a replacement for rats. But I know that there are orcs in Warhammer, so what role do Skaven fill?

And on a related note, kudos to those games that don't have generic goblins and orcs.

Prinnies from Disgaea and cactuars from Final Fantasy are some of the most iconic non-boss monsters I can think of. And I'm sure I wouldn't remember them at all if their roles had been filled by goblins or rats.

 

[Modron]

And if anyone has an example of really awesome rat enemies, let me know.

Torment's cranium rats had some pretty cool mechanics.

 

[Zep Zepo]

I gotta stop writing my test code in the main loop...

Zep--

 

[ERYFKRAD]

ERYFKRAD I had to Google that. You can tell I'm not a Warhammer player. Based on the images that came up, I was going to guess that Skaven must be a replacement for orcs instead of a replacement for rats. But I know that there are orcs in Warhammer, so what role do Skaven fill?

Not sure what the Skaven army schtick is. I think it's about being super mobile but individually weak or something.
Darth Roxor might know better.

 

[Zep Zepo]

So, I am making a.... thing. Primitives and downloaded textures for now.

Collision detection is in and working. I can move about the map and not go through walls. (I decided to go the collision detection route so I can add various things to the map and not worry)

Maps are text files with such fantasical stuff as , walls, doors, and floors (for now).

w=wall
.=floor
D= (locked door) or d openable door so like
wwww

first line of map file is it dimension
15,15 (or 20,30) or whatever. So a simple map would be...

4,4
wwww
w..w
w..w
wwww

Pretty simple so far.

My plan is to make it extremely modable with simple text files.

Haven't decided on 3d-blobber or 3d-rouge-like yet. (I've always wanted a proper 3d-rogue-like)

Anyway, programmer art first screen-shot.

Zep--

 

[ERYFKRAD]

(I've always wanted a proper 3d-rogue-like)

Would this be entirely fpp though?

 

[Zep Zepo]

so, along with the "map" file, every "map" file will have a "texture" file, a "transition" file (where do I go once I leave this map thru an exit)
a "banner" file (an extra texture pasted onto a wall/floor texture).

That's all I have right now. If you have some recommendations for anything I might be missing as far as support for "map" files, let me know. I'm sure I missed some things.

Zep--

 

[Zep Zepo]

(I've always wanted a proper 3d-rogue-like)

Would this be entirely fpp though?

Yes.

FPP (so no fashion show on the character...maybe on the character edit screen...I don't know)

Zep--

 

[Zep Zepo]

I'll eventually get around creating an editor to create the text files so you don't have to create each one manually (as I am doing now)

Zep--

 

[Zep Zepo]

so, along with the "map" file, every "map" file will have a "texture" file, a "transition" file (where do I go once I leave this map thru an exit)
a "banner" file (an extra texture pasted onto a wall/floor texture).

That's all I have right now. If you have some recommendations for anything I might be missing as far as support for "map" files, let me know. I'm sure I missed some things.

Zep--

Oh..and a "collision" file, stops walking thru a bush, tree, well, wood-cart or whatever or not.

Zep--

 

[Alchemist]

BTW, folks, there's an Atari remakes jam planned soon-ish, anyone wishes to bring some incline?
I'll probably join if I finish the demo quickly enough and will need a distraction for a day or two, already got Dragonstomper or Adventure on my radar.
https://itch.io/jam/highsight-1

Zed Alchemist

Man, that would be fun to join in on - but I know for sure I won't have time. I'll be getting ready to move to a new apartment all during that time frame.
Looking forward to seeing what you do though.

 

[vlzvl]

My plan is to make it extremely modable with simple text files.

why not just using XML and deal with layers the easy way?

 

[Zep Zepo]

My plan is to make it extremely modable with simple text files.

why not just using XML and deal with layers the easy way?

Because XML is hipster web 2.0 bullshit.

THIS IS OLD SKOOL, MAN!

Zep--

 

[Mustawd]

Not sure what the Skaven army schtick is. I think it's about being super mobile but individually weak or something.
Darth Roxor might know better.

They're your typical horde army. Similar to Tyranids in WH40k. Overwhelming number swarms, etc. Albeit with some cool unit distinctions for magic. It's a moot point since they killed off WHFB anyhow