Colony Ship Early Access Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

I think you will agree

I would, but I have no idea how your hypothetical example is relevant to a discussion about AoD. That's not how AoD works. AoD presents you with a wall and asks if you got the specific skill needed to climb over. Either you do, or you don't. What you decide when creating a character is which of those walls you want to climb over, and then whenever you meet such a wall you put points into that skill. You never meet a wall that is hard to climb over: either you can climb the wall or you can't. So it's very easy. The walls you can't climb you don't, the ones you can you do.

(Again, we're talking non-combat here.)

It's also not true you always have dynamite available in Deus Ex; you can certainly have if you know how to abuse the system, but then that's the case with every RPG ever. No RPGs are difficult if difficulty is only possible without abuse - except for a few ones that are so constrained in their design they can eliminate all abuse (but this typically comes with a HEAVY cost of restricting build diversity). Regardless: we are not discussing whether Deus Ex failed in its design because it didn't balance its options properly, we're discussing what the design approach was.

 

[Grunker]

I would say that is is a mathematical fact about the universe, adding more options can only make the best path easier or the same, never harder, because you can always just ignore the extra options.

Didn't really take in this statement until now. That's, very, very, very wrong, and quite obviously so. In fact I'd argue it's completely antithetical to the way games and difficulty works.

Scenario A: You have to pick between two grenades: one will explode when picked up, killing you, one will not. You have to identify which one is the exploding one through whatever means you have of doing so.

Scenario B: Now let's say we limit your choices to one grenade: the one that won't explode.

Which of these scenarios is harder to survive? Obviously scenario A.

 

[Parabalus]

I think you will agree

I would, but I have no idea how your hypothetical example is relevant to a discussion about AoD. That's not how AoD works. AoD presents you with a wall and asks if you got the specific skill needed to climb over. Either you do, or you don't. What you decide when creating a character is which of those walls you want to climb over, and then whenever you meet such a wall you put points into that skill. You never meet a wall that is hard to climb over: either you can climb the wall or you can't. So it's very easy. The walls you can't climb you don't, the ones you can you do.

(Again, we're talking non-combat here.)

It's also not true you always have dynamite available in Deus Ex; you can certainly have if you know how to abuse the system, but then that's the case with every RPG ever. No RPGs are difficult if difficulty is only possible without abuse - except for a few ones that are so constrained in their design they can eliminate all abuse (but this typically comes with a HEAVY cost of restricting build diversity). Regardless: we are not discussing whether Deus Ex failed in its design because it didn't balance its options properly, we're discussing what the design approach was.

The fun with AoD is that you can make combat harder so you can climb more non-combat walls.

 

[Grunker]

The fun with AoD is that you can make combat harder so you can climb more non-combat walls.

But it is in fact totally possible to avoid combat in Age of Decadence

 

[lukaszek]

The sacrifice is the same as in AoD, harder combat/stealth/game due to lower skills. It's just much more metagamey here.

sure since you cant bank points it might appear as more metagamey, but remember that you are comparing finished aod vs unfinished and unpolished colony. Make that argument later coz its nowhere near doing stuff like no combat ascendancy.

 

[Tsubutai]

Yes, absolutely - using that party I did the three-stage assault on Jonas HQ, killed the Detroit gang, killed Crowe, killed both refugee leaders in the Shuttle Bay, and did the newly added junction assault in the Habitat just fine.

Guess I'm just bad then. Or I can keep going on blaming pistols.

Haha. The MC in my party is actually a pistolero, but yeah, the pistols you can get in the Pit do mostly kind of suck. You can buy a nice one (the Longslide) and loot another (the Redeemer) if you're OK with robbing a badly wounded stranger rather than giving them medical care, but otherwise the lootable ones are kind of underwhelming until you get to the Factory, where you can get a souped-up Longslide and the Hauser, which are both excellent. Then when you reach the Habitat you can buy the Colt, which is even better.

 

[jackofshadows]

Why is AoD so against this kind of flexibility with the dialogue skills when it's completely fine with you doing that with a combat build? It makes no sense.

Eh, there was some flexibility but yeah - very limited compared to the combat side. That's why they've iterated on it here: "negotiation" system that I've mentioned (quote marks because I don't remember how exactly VD was introducing it). There's disposition scale attached to every *serious* dialogue and to achieve one positive (to you of course) outcome or another you must fill it chiefly by passing checks just as it was in AoD but the scale can be pre-filled thanks to high CHAR and vice versa or maybe due to some other conditions (don't know is there any now/planned). I think it's a solid improvement although still meets your "AoD+" definition.

Re: metagaming. Endless topic truly but here's why I think learn by using system makes CSG less metagamey and it's extremely simple: in AoD you were encouraged not to just spend skill points instead of playing a guessing game/playing as you would play RPG normally > make a fatal mistake > see the game over screen and start over. Here you… don't have the option to do so. Meta-knowledge about checks won't help you much since you're trying to maximize them chosen skills anyway. As for implants, gear, quest rewards etc - not different from practically every RPG out there.

Basically, in most games your decision making starts from flavor (is my character a character who would resolve this situation in this way?). In CS your decision making will often be mechanical (Am I doing a build that needs the xp from resolving the situation in this way?).

*I don't extort the merchant after recruit evans because I think it's correct, or because I want the 50 credits, I do it because I feel like I need the xp. And considering xp in your characters decision making is very metagamey.

That's the thing, I don't see "flavour" i.e. meaningless in terms of mechanics as RPG-related stuff in principle. You can also perceive the example above like this: you character is either trying to use said skill (in a broad sense) at every opportunity and by doing that, excel in it or neglecting the opportunities like that lead to character developed other skill or even failed in his quest - all within given story. After all, CSG has limited, constrained design as a whole.

 

[Pink Eye]

yeah, the pistols you can get in the Pit do mostly kind of suck.

Stop disrespecting the Suicide Special!!! That's a very sexy pistol, mmkay?

Did two complete runs with Faythe only using it.

 

[Jaedar]

I would say that is is a mathematical fact about the universe, adding more options can only make the best path easier or the same, never harder, because you can always just ignore the extra options.

Didn't really take in this statement until now. That's, very, very, very wrong, and quite obviously so. In fact I'd argue it's completely antithetical to the way games and difficulty works.

Scenario A: You have to pick between two grenades: one will explode when picked up, killing you, one will not. You have to identify which one is the exploding one through whatever means you have of doing so.

Scenario B: Now let's say we limit your choices to one grenade: the one that won't explode.

Which of these scenarios is harder to survive? Obviously scenario A.

The best path is the same in both scenarios: pick the grenade that doesn't explode. Identifying which path is best is a separate question.

 

[Technomancer]

robbing a badly wounded stranger rather than giving them medical care

You can both rob them and give them medical aid. Redeemer is payment for services rendered, it certainly is a better deal than most other individuals would give in ITS games

 

[Parabalus]

The sacrifice is the same as in AoD, harder combat/stealth/game due to lower skills. It's just much more metagamey here.

sure since you cant bank points it might appear as more metagamey, but remember that you are comparing finished aod vs unfinished and unpolished colony. Make that argument later coz its nowhere near doing stuff like no combat ascendancy.

It's not just banking SP, it's that each skill has it's own SP, unlike AoD which had just 3 types.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And in fact, the combat point is quite good. Why is AoD so against this kind of flexibility with the dialogue skills when it's completely fine with you doing that with a combat build? It makes no sense.

Because to achieve this flexibility would require giving the dialogue system the complexity of the combat system.

Anyway, my point was: how does an AoD playthrough feel in terms of choice. And in contrast to what I enjoy from an RPG, it didn't feel like I got to know my character as I played. It feelt like I chose from a list of trains, and then put that train on its path and watched it unfold. The reason skill point saving highlights this feeling so well is that in AoD you don't go "uh, it would be interesting if I did this with my skill points." No, you wait for the train to stop at a station, then you look at the skill threshold demand for that station, put your points into that like a good boy and get off at the station. Then you earn some skill points, put those in your pocket and jump into the train. Time for the next station! Your character isn't growing into new possibitilies and tools, it's earning pocket money to pay for the next progression fee.

Player-submitted builds:

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...617/6A621927F07A339F3575403E94E72C023EB61C0E/
Str 7, Dex 8, Con 6, Per 8, Int 7, Cha 5, bodycount 155
Hammer 8, Dodge 10, Critical Strike 6, Lore 8, Persuasion 8, Crafting 6, Streetwise 5, etc.

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...440/75C85ECCE7979E440D6445477A35523B8EE33473/
Str 5, Dex 9, Con 5, Per 8, Int 6, Cha 7, bodycount 109
Dagger 9, Dodge 9, Critical Strike 7, Alchemy 6, Streetwise 6, Impersonate 5, etc

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...013/B00403C16CE17A55C23AF08305021966511D6E61/
Str 8, Dex 8, Con 6, Per 8, Int 7, Cha 4, bodycount 328
Axe 9, Critical Strike 7, Crafting 10, Lore 8, Persuasion 6, Sneak 6

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=536683085
knife fighter with Dex 4, a shield, streetwise, and 222 kills.

Do these builds look railroaded to you?

Most checks in Teron are 3-4; you can start the game with 4 in your main skills (or spread them around if you wish), the gain quite a few points in Teron, raise the main skills to 5-6 and *expand* your skill base. This way you can easily cover 6-8 skills, which is a plenty, considering that you only need 3 combat skills at most.

 

[Grunker]

I would say that is is a mathematical fact about the universe, adding more options can only make the best path easier or the same, never harder, because you can always just ignore the extra options.

Didn't really take in this statement until now. That's, very, very, very wrong, and quite obviously so. In fact I'd argue it's completely antithetical to the way games and difficulty works.

Scenario A: You have to pick between two grenades: one will explode when picked up, killing you, one will not. You have to identify which one is the exploding one through whatever means you have of doing so.

Scenario B: Now let's say we limit your choices to one grenade: the one that won't explode.

Which of these scenarios is harder to survive? Obviously scenario A.

The best path is the same in both scenarios: pick the grenade that doesn't explode. Identifying which path is best is a separate question.

Yes, but the best path is harder to choose. That's the whole point.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Fallout: I will collapse this scorpion cave using dynamite after noticing structural weaknesses
Neo-posthumanist space brazil RPG: I will select the dialogue option that correlates with the skills my character uses

man rpgs sure have come a long way

 

[Jaedar]

Haha. The MC in my party is actually a pistolero, but yeah, the pistols you can get in the Pit do mostly kind of suck. You can buy a nice one (the Longslide) and loot another (the Redeemer) if you're OK with robbing a badly wounded stranger rather than giving them medical care, but otherwise the lootable ones are kind of underwhelming until you get to the Factory, where you can get a souped-up Longslide and the Hauser, which are both excellent. Then when you reach the Habitat you can buy the Colt, which is even better.

Yeah, my character did become a lot better when I started using the energy pistol (I missed the redeemer, not a huge fan of longslide, or I found it too late). Shame the ammo is so limited. I still think rifles/shottys are better though.

You can also perceive the example above like this: you character is either trying to use said skill (in a broad sense) at every opportunity and by doing that, excel in it or neglecting the opportunities like that lead to character developed other skill or even failed in his quest - all within given story.

I have never met a person who said "I just want to code databases, I don't care if I could be paid millions to save the world by shovelling dirt, I'd rather code databases for free for nazis". That's not a role, that is a tool.

Because to achieve this flexibility would require giving the dialogue system the complexity of the combat system.

I wish someone figured out how to do this. (In a way that didn't remove the feeling that it's dialogue)

Yes, but the best path is harder to choose. That's the whole point.

It rarely is in a video game though, in my opinion. One door requires 1 multitool, the other 2 lockpicks, the third moving a crate to get up a ledge. Especially when you include quicksave/quickload to check what's behind the doors.

(Again, we're talking non-combat here.)

I think I already agreed building non-combat character in AoD is not good. Did you ever do combat playthroughs? Still the same problems?

 

[Grunker]

And in fact, the combat point is quite good. Why is AoD so against this kind of flexibility with the dialogue skills when it's completely fine with you doing that with a combat build? It makes no sense.

Because to achieve this flexibility would require giving the dialogue system the complexity of the combat system.

Anyway, my point was: how does an AoD playthrough feel in terms of choice. And in contrast to what I enjoy from an RPG, it didn't feel like I got to know my character as I played. It feelt like I chose from a list of trains, and then put that train on its path and watched it unfold. The reason skill point saving highlights this feeling so well is that in AoD you don't go "uh, it would be interesting if I did this with my skill points." No, you wait for the train to stop at a station, then you look at the skill threshold demand for that station, put your points into that like a good boy and get off at the station. Then you earn some skill points, put those in your pocket and jump into the train. Time for the next station! Your character isn't growing into new possibitilies and tools, it's earning pocket money to pay for the next progression fee.

Player-submitted builds:

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...617/6A621927F07A339F3575403E94E72C023EB61C0E/
Str 7, Dex 8, Con 6, Per 8, Int 7, Cha 5, bodycount 155
Hammer 8, Dodge 10, Critical Strike 6, Lore 8, Persuasion 8, Crafting 6, Streetwise 5, etc.

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...440/75C85ECCE7979E440D6445477A35523B8EE33473/
Str 5, Dex 9, Con 5, Per 8, Int 6, Cha 7, bodycount 109
Dagger 9, Dodge 9, Critical Strike 7, Alchemy 6, Streetwise 6, Impersonate 5, etc

http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...013/B00403C16CE17A55C23AF08305021966511D6E61/
Str 8, Dex 8, Con 6, Per 8, Int 7, Cha 4, bodycount 328
Axe 9, Critical Strike 7, Crafting 10, Lore 8, Persuasion 6, Sneak 6

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=536683085
knife fighter with Dex 4, a shield, streetwise, and 222 kills.

Do these builds look railroaded to you?

Most checks in Teron are 3-4; you can start the game with 4 in your main skills (or spread them around if you wish), the gain quite a few points in Teron, raise the main skills to 5-6 and *expand* your skill base. This way you can easily cover 6-8 skills, which is a plenty, considering that you only need 3 combat skills at most.

One of those builds is from a different background, leaving 3 actual submissions. Two of those are very similar, and they can all bypass lacking non-combat skills by doing combat instead - in a background that favors doing just that.

But we've had this discussion endlessly already, VD. No point in going for another round, methinks.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fallout: I will collapse this scorpion cave using dynamite after noticing structural weaknesses

More like: I will collapse this and only this cave after noticing a scripted event attached to the wall.

 

[Grunker]

I think I already agreed building non-combat character in AoD is not good. Did you ever do combat playthroughs? Still the same problems?

I did, and I have recommended everyone I recommended AoD to, to do just that. However I don't enjoy AoD combat, so it's not a fix for me

 

[Jaedar]

I think I already agreed building non-combat character in AoD is not good. Did you ever do combat playthroughs? Still the same problems?

I did, and I have recommended everyone I recommended AoD to, to do just that. However I don't enjoy AoD combat, so it's not a fix for me

I enjoy both AoD combat and the non-combat exploration stuff (interacting with old tech with various skills and such, even if it is just holding alt and clicking all the glowies on a mechanical level). If you dislike AoD combat I don't really know why you would like CR combat, unless it was specifically not having a party or something that made you dislike it.

 

[Grunker]

I think I already agreed building non-combat character in AoD is not good. Did you ever do combat playthroughs? Still the same problems?

I did, and I have recommended everyone I recommended AoD to, to do just that. However I don't enjoy AoD combat, so it's not a fix for me

I enjoy both AoD combat and the non-combat exploration stuff (interacting with old tech with various skills and such, even if it is just holding alt and clicking all the glowies on a mechanical level). If you dislike AoD combat I don't really know why you would like CR combat, unless it was specifically not having a party or something that made you dislike it.

The addition of perks and a party might make combat have enough variety to make it interesting for me, but the reason I asked is that I didn't know much about the game. Just wishlisted it when it got to Steam and never really took a look at it since.

 

[Pink Eye]

The addition of perks and a party might make combat have enough variety to make it interesting for me

Feats add lots of replayability if you want to come up with different character builds. Companions also have unique perks - so far it's only Faythe - that also add some variety. Combat is pretty fun too with guns plus aimed system.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

after noticing a scripted event attached to the wall.

Except it requires you to actively examine(verb) the weakened part of the wall and pass a perception check.

Spoiler

procedure start
begin
    if ((script_action == look_at_proc) or (script_action == description_proc)) then begin
        call look_at_p_proc();
    end
    else begin
        if (script_action == damage_proc) then begin
            call damage_p_proc();
        end
    end
end

procedure look_at_p_proc
begin
    script_overrides;
    display_mstr(100);
end

procedure description_p_proc
begin
    script_overrides;
    if (is_success(do_check(dude_obj, 1, 0)) or is_success(do_check(dude_obj, 6, -1))) then begin
        display_mstr(101);
    end
    else begin
        display_mstr(100);
    end
end

either you pass the perception check(1) or get a critical luck roll(6), then the game gives you information that can be used as an alternate solution to a quest without automatically performing that solution for you
wow, environment interactions that don't involve dialogue and requires the player to actually look at the environment :O

 

[Jaedar]

The addition of perks and a party might make combat have enough variety to make it interesting for me

Feats add lots of replayability if you want to come up with different character builds. Companions also have unique perks - so far it's only Faythe - that also add some variety. Combat is pretty fun too with guns plus aimed system.

Pretty sure aimed attacks were in AoD, both with bows and melee weapons.

after noticing a scripted event attached to the wall.

Except it requires you to actively examine(verb) the weakened part of the wall and pass a perception check.

Spoiler

procedure start
begin
    if ((script_action == look_at_proc) or (script_action == description_proc)) then begin
        call look_at_p_proc();
    end
    else begin
        if (script_action == damage_proc) then begin
            call damage_p_proc();
        end
    end
end

procedure look_at_p_proc
begin
    script_overrides;
    display_mstr(100);
end

procedure description_p_proc
begin
    script_overrides;
    if (is_success(do_check(dude_obj, 1, 0)) or is_success(do_check(dude_obj, 6, -1))) then begin
        display_mstr(101);
    end
    else begin
        display_mstr(100);
    end
end

either you pass the perception check(1) or get a critical luck roll(6), then the game gives you information that can be used as an alternate solution to a quest without automatically performing that solution for you
wow, environment interactions that don't involve dialogue and requires the player to actually look at the environment :O

That part of fallout is cool, for sure and a great argument for why you should try to have interactions be systemic (ie place explosives wherever) instead of "open a dialogue box and select an option from a list" but iirc it's also the only place in fallout like that, and the cost is that you will waste a lot of time trying to electronics uninteractable things (because uninteractable computers sometimes have identical graphics to interactable ones).

 

[Pink Eye]

either you pass the perception check(1) or get a critical luck roll(6), then the game gives you information that can be used as an alternate solution to a quest without automatically performing that solution for you

Rusty. You're a doofus. This is something Colony Ship employs as well:

See this stretch of hallway? There are evil worms that will eat your brains. Oh boy. I wonder if there's an easy to get past those things. Ah! I know. Lets walk over here. Lets go examine this room that has a vent!

So the game rewards my exploration by granting me an easier way to pass those worms if I can't face them by investigating the other room. Amazing.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

but iirc it's also the only place in fallout like that

except for the part where you can blow up any wooden door + a bunch of other stuff, yeah, I guess