Colony Ship Early Access Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Parabalus]

On a side note, I still don't understand how that discussion is in anyway related to difficulty, it seems more like a defensive argument than anything.

Well, because that would be indeed a radical way to solve it. A skyrim difficulty mode where you can become everything. Head of mage, fighter, thieves guilds all at the same time. Possible thanks to massive learning boost to every skill, respawning enemies and radiant quests to grind your skills.

That's called 'Hero Mode' difficulty where Skill Gains are 100% thus allowing to become a fighter/talker/and whatever else you want.

Which is really dumb, should have just stuck to nerfing combat difficulty.

 

[Grunker]

On a side note, I still don't understand how that discussion is in anyway related to difficulty, it seems more like a defensive argument than anything.

Well, because that would be indeed a radical way to solve it. A skyrim difficulty mode where you can become everything. Head of mage, fighter, thieves guilds all at the same time. Possible thanks to massive learning boost to every skill, respawning enemies and radiant quests to grind your skills.

But that argument is obviously bullshit, so obviously that I must say I doubt anyone who spout it believe that it is the actual crux of the discussion. Most of the people who argue that AoD is too constrained are people who, like me, dislike modern RPG design and whose favourite games force you to make tough choices. Most of us play absurdly hard RPGs on their highest difficulty with Ironman turned on, maybe even install mods to make it even more of a sperg-fest. Unless you think AoD is some unicorn of actual difficulty, the argument is obviously nonsense. It's just a defensive measure to avoid engaging with the actual discussion. Unless you can explain why masochistic difficulty whores suddenly become casual Oblivion-fanboys only when critiquing AoD.

One of the main things rusty and I praise King Arthur: A Knight's Tale for is that it is really hard to unlock even two thirds of the base upgrades in that game in a single playthrough, meaning you have to prioritize. The point is: we make those choices and prioritize like that while going along, the choicemaking is constant throughout.

 

[Jaedar]

I think you missed my point, which wasn't about difficulty at all.

Yeah, but I think difficulty kinda is relevant. If the player always has 10 options because all options are trivial to get, the player can always pick the easiest solution. If the player only has 3 options out of 10 available due to specialization, there is a good chance the easiest one won't be available. It's probably good that some options are easier and some are harder too.

I guess a shorter version is that having more tools can never make a game harder, and it's kinda hard in deus ex to not have a full toolbox.

As for railroadings, this is my character at close to the end of my last playthrough:

Spoiler

Successfully did most combats, opened almost every crate/door and succeeded every sneak/assassination challenge I tried. Despite having 4 combat skills tagged my PC is the least successful in combat out of the party, because pistols suck (and not having any combat feats doesn't help)

I can't guarantee you'd like the game Grunker, but I sure would like to read your impressions of it :friendly:

 

[Pink Eye]

Which is really dumb

Interesting. In this very thread you were just complaining about how suffocating the system is - developers listened and implemented such a mode for people who want a character that can become multiple things; without sacrifice. Now you're saying it's dumb? Just what do you want Colony Ship to be like?

 

[Grunker]

I think you missed my point, which wasn't about difficulty at all.

Yeah, but I think difficulty kinda is relevant. If the player always has 10 options because all options are trivial to get, the player can always pick the easiest solution. If the player only has 3 options out of 10 available due to specialization, there is a good chance the easiest one won't be available. It's probably good that some options are easier and some are harder too.

Is there anything hard about skill selection in AoD? I find it's a complete non-brainer. You pick the skills the playthrough needs and you only level them up when you need to pass a new threshold for that skill. I really don't get the difficulty argument here.

Using non-combat skills in AoD isn't any harder or easier than in any other game.

I can't guarantee you'd like the game Grunker, but I sure would like to read your impressions of it :friendly:

I like that it's party-based, it's probably enough to make me give it a try on a release. I'm gonna buy it either way 'cause Vault Dweller is a bro. I bought three copies of AoD at full price and the last one I bought after I realized I didn't like the game much

 

[Parabalus]

Which is really dumb

Interesting. In this very thread you were just complaining about how suffocating the system is - developers listened and implemented such a mode for people who want a character that can become multiple things; without sacrifice. Now you're saying it's dumb? Just what do you want Colony Ship to be like?

Where are you getting this from?

The sacrifice is the same as in AoD, harder combat/stealth/game due to lower skills. It's just much more metagamey here.

 

[Technomancer]

It's just a defensive measure to avoid engaging with the actual discussion.

Well yeah. Why waste time on engaging it? Massively overworked team isn't going to drop everything and rebalance the whole thing from the ground. At the end of the day, clearly it's a preference thing. I personally adore that feeling of being constrained, and I don't mind metagaming at all. I enjoy exploring the game and making superior pathways in my mind based on gained knowledge. I guess for me, role playing element is secondary. So I'm perfectly matched target audience. And since people support this approach, clearly ITS is doing something right. Found their niche. But you can't satisfy all and it's not perfect. Some people will be disappointed, and their disappointment is valid. Doesn't mean they should do anything about it.

 

[Pink Eye]

I personally adore that feeling of being constrained, and I don't mind metagaming at all. I enjoy exploring the game and making superior pathways in my mind based on gained knowledge. I guess for me, role playing element is secondary. So I'm perfectly matched target audience.

Me too! I very much love the game, the system, and everything else about it. One of my favorites so far.

 

[Parabalus]

It's just a defensive measure to avoid engaging with the actual discussion.

Well yeah. Why waste time on engaging it? Massively overworked team isn't going to drop everything and rebalance the whole thing from the ground. At the end of the day, clearly it's a preference thing. I personally adore that feeling of being constrained, and I don't mind metagaming at all. I enjoy exploring the game and making superior pathways in my mind based on gained knowledge. I guess for me, role playing element is secondary. So I'm perfectly matched target audience. And since people support this approach, clearly ITS is doing something right. Found their niche. But you can't satisfy all and it's not perfect. Some people will be disappointed, and their disappointment is valid. Doesn't mean they should do anything about it.

I liked finding optimal routes in AoD too, and have had fun doing so in CS.

People are pointing it out because Vince's stated intended goal for the new system was to lessen metagaming, but the end result is even more metagamey than AoD.

On that note:

Needs a VD/ITS edit.

 

[Technomancer]

People are pointing it out because Vince's stated intended goal for the new system was to lessen metagaming, but the end result is even more metagamey than AoD.

I guess they did the best they could at the moment. But we really should wait for complete experience. Once everything is in place and devs have full data on amount of checks and xp pools available in the game - they could experiment with some things more. For now, I think the focus is on crunching hardcore and trying their damnedest to avoid more delays. Really not the best time for megaprojects like this.

 

[Tsubutai]

People are pointing it out because Vince's stated intended goal for the new system was to lessen metagaming, but the end result is even more metagamey than AoD.

That's really only true if you're determined to play a solo hybrid character. If you bring party members along, you can quite easily tag all of the civic skills across your party, which means you have quite a lot of leeway to choose your path without falling behind the curve. For example, my MC has speech skills tagged, Faythe has computers/electronics/lockpick/steal (and will get sneak tagged once implant overclocking is available), and Jed has biotech, so all the civic skills are covered.

 

[Grunker]

It's just a defensive measure to avoid engaging with the actual discussion.

Well yeah. Why waste time on engaging it? Massively overworked team isn't going to drop everything and rebalance the whole thing from the ground.

I know. That's why I specifically phrased my question in terms of "I didn't enjoy AoD, I understand why some people do, with that in mind will I enjoy Colony?" The subsequent discussion was only because Jaedar responded to my points about why, so I thought I'd expand on them to make it clear.

One of VD's mistakes with AoD (in hindsight) was engaging people like me in loooooooong debates about AoD's design and trying to meet our demands, which is of course praiseworthy but was also sort of fruitless since it was clear our perspectives were too far from each other

 

[Jaedar]

I think you missed my point, which wasn't about difficulty at all.

Yeah, but I think difficulty kinda is relevant. If the player always has 10 options because all options are trivial to get, the player can always pick the easiest solution. If the player only has 3 options out of 10 available due to specialization, there is a good chance the easiest one won't be available. It's probably good that some options are easier and some are harder too.

Is there anything hard about skill selection in AoD? I find it's a complete non-brainer. You pick the skills the playthrough needs and you only level them up when you need to pass a new threshold for that skill. I really don't get the difficulty argument here.

The difficulty is not in planning your build, but rather in executing your build in the gameworld, if that makes sense? If your toolbox is full, you'll never encounter a problem you don't have the tools to solve, and you'll never have to cobble together an expensive and tricky solution out of 5 improper tools (although you certainly still can).

I'd probably agree with you that there is less strategy in making your build in AoD/CR than in deus ex, since you make most/all relevant decisions at chargen. But even if your car is fixed at that point, you still have to oil it, pick correct tires etc . But you probably shouldn't take your bubble-car on a cross country drive. I realize this example might not make sense to someone who lives in denmark, you'll just have to imagine you live in a country that's bigger than a shoebox.

For example, my MC has speech skills tagged, Faythe has computers/electronics/lockpick/steal (and will get sneak tagged once implant overclocking is available), and Jed has biotech, so all the civic skills are covered.

But can you do all the hard combat encounters with all those noncombat tags?

 

[Grunker]

I think you missed my point, which wasn't about difficulty at all.

Yeah, but I think difficulty kinda is relevant. If the player always has 10 options because all options are trivial to get, the player can always pick the easiest solution. If the player only has 3 options out of 10 available due to specialization, there is a good chance the easiest one won't be available. It's probably good that some options are easier and some are harder too.

Is there anything hard about skill selection in AoD? I find it's a complete non-brainer. You pick the skills the playthrough needs and you only level them up when you need to pass a new threshold for that skill. I really don't get the difficulty argument here.

The difficulty is not in planning your build, but rather in executing your build in the gameworld, if that makes sense?

It doesn't, since my answer is still the same: is it actually difficult doing this in a non-combat AoD playthrough? Like I said, I felt I just saved my points, met required thresholds and moved on. I never found it "difficult."

I realize this example might not make sense to someone who lives in denmark, you'll just have to imagine you live in a country that's bigger than a shoebox.

My point is: it's not hard to be able to approach obstacles in fewer ways. In fact you might even say it's way easier: being limited to *only* doing what you invested skill points into means the choices have been made for you. Subsequently, the question of what to do is obvious. Difficulty comes either from picking the better choice amongst many or from executing a choice properly.

That's why I don't see this as a difficulty discussion at all. As in: not even a little bit. It's solely a design question in my opinion.

 

[Pink Eye]

But can you do all the hard combat encounters with all those noncombat tags?

If you know how to exploit the enemy AI, use consumables, are familiar with the aimed system; then anything can work for combat. I will say. The enemy AI compared to Chalice 2 isn't that demanding. Certain encounters can be made harder as well. Balance isn't there. This is something the developers are constantly working on. Just recently they, finally, modified enemy AI to not step into gas nade. Will have to fully test it though to see if it has any quirks.

 

[Tsubutai]

For example, my MC has speech skills tagged, Faythe has computers/electronics/lockpick/steal (and will get sneak tagged once implant overclocking is available), and Jed has biotech, so all the civic skills are covered.

But can you do all the hard combat encounters with all those noncombat tags?

Yes, absolutely - using that party I did the three-stage assault on Jonas HQ, killed the Detroit gang, killed Crowe, killed both refugee leaders in the Shuttle Bay, and did the newly added junction assault in the Habitat just fine.

 

[Technomancer]

One of VD's mistakes with AoD (in hindsight) was engaging people like me in loooooooong debates about AoD's design

Heh, I remember excavating and reading some of those. In these days it would be unsustainable. Unless we want to wait for another 10 years with this game as well

 

[Grunker]

One of VD's mistakes with AoD (in hindsight) was engaging people like me in loooooooong debates about AoD's design

Heh, I remember excavating and reading some of those. In these days it would be unsustainable. Unless we want to wait for another 10 years with this game as well

Next thursday indeed :D

 

[Parabalus]

But can you do all the hard combat encounters with all those noncombat tags?

Hardest part is choosing which combat encounters to skip so you can farm enough diplo skill.

Should add that ITS made a good change in one of the patches in that feats/attributes that affect skill growth are retroactive.

 

[Jaedar]

It doesn't, since my answer is still the same: is it actually difficult doing this in a non-combat AoD playthrough? Like I said, I felt I just saved my points, met required thresholds and moved on. I never found it "difficult."

Depends a bit maybe. If noncombat = talky then no, you just pick the green option in dialogue. If noncombat is a bit more wide, it's a bit challenging (can't just pump streetwise and persuasion), but as you say, there are enough skillpoints so you can just reload, pump your skill and retry. The difficulty is way more relevant for combat/hybrid builds, which are 'all' builds in colony ship.

Yes, absolutely - using that party I did the three-stage assault on Jonas HQ, killed the Detroit gang, killed Crowe, killed both refugee leaders in the Shuttle Bay, and did the newly added junction assault in the Habitat just fine.

Guess I'm just bad then. Or I can keep going on blaming pistols.

My point is: it's not hard to be able to approach obstacles in fewer ways. In fact you might even say it's way easier: being limited to *only* doing what you invested skill points into means the choices have been made for you. Subsequently, the question of what to do is obvious. Difficulty comes either from picking the better choice amongst many or from executing a choice properly.

I think we're talking past each other.
Imagine you run into a brick wall that you need to get past.
Scenario 1: You have some metal spoons, some wooden sticks and a few spools of wire.
Scenario 2: as scenario one, but also you have dynamite and matches.
I think you will agree that if your objective is to get past the wall, scenario 2 is easier to complete. I would say that is is a mathematical fact about the universe, adding more options can only make the best path easier or the same, never harder, because you can always just ignore the extra options.

The design in deus ex is such that you'll always have 'dynamite' available. The design in CS and AoD is such that you'll run into some scenario 1s and either have to solve them with bad tools or accept defeat. Having to get through a brick wall with only metal spoons is harder than doing it with dynamite, so I would say that a design that forces you into that is more difficult. And not just difficult but also... gritty? dark? not power-fantasy-al? as it also forces you to occasionally fail to bust through some brick walls.

Was this understandable?

 

[Grunker]

I think you will agree

I would, but I have no idea how your hypothetical example is relevant to a discussion about AoD. That's not how AoD works. AoD presents you with a wall and asks if you got the specific skill needed to climb over. Either you do, or you don't. What you decide when creating a character is which of those walls you want to climb over, and then whenever you meet such a wall you put points into that skill. You never meet a wall that is hard to climb over: either you can climb the wall or you can't. So it's very easy. The walls you can't climb you don't, the ones you can you do.

(Again, we're talking non-combat here.)

It's also not true you always have dynamite available in Deus Ex; you can certainly have if you know how to abuse the system, but then that's the case with every RPG ever. No RPGs are difficult if difficulty is only possible without abuse - except for a few ones that are so constrained in their design they can eliminate all abuse (but this typically comes with a HEAVY cost of restricting build diversity). Regardless: we are not discussing whether Deus Ex failed in its design because it didn't balance its options properly, we're discussing what the design approach was.

 

[Grunker]

I would say that is is a mathematical fact about the universe, adding more options can only make the best path easier or the same, never harder, because you can always just ignore the extra options.

Didn't really take in this statement until now. That's, very, very, very wrong, and quite obviously so. In fact I'd argue it's completely antithetical to the way games and difficulty works.

Scenario A: You have to pick between two grenades: one will explode when picked up, killing you, one will not. You have to identify which one is the exploding one through whatever means you have of doing so.

Scenario B: Now let's say we limit your choices to one grenade: the one that won't explode.

Which of these scenarios is harder to survive? Obviously scenario A.

 

[Parabalus]

I think you will agree

I would, but I have no idea how your hypothetical example is relevant to a discussion about AoD. That's not how AoD works. AoD presents you with a wall and asks if you got the specific skill needed to climb over. Either you do, or you don't. What you decide when creating a character is which of those walls you want to climb over, and then whenever you meet such a wall you put points into that skill. You never meet a wall that is hard to climb over: either you can climb the wall or you can't. So it's very easy. The walls you can't climb you don't, the ones you can you do.

(Again, we're talking non-combat here.)

It's also not true you always have dynamite available in Deus Ex; you can certainly have if you know how to abuse the system, but then that's the case with every RPG ever. No RPGs are difficult if difficulty is only possible without abuse - except for a few ones that are so constrained in their design they can eliminate all abuse (but this typically comes with a HEAVY cost of restricting build diversity). Regardless: we are not discussing whether Deus Ex failed in its design because it didn't balance its options properly, we're discussing what the design approach was.

The fun with AoD is that you can make combat harder so you can climb more non-combat walls.

 

[Grunker]

The fun with AoD is that you can make combat harder so you can climb more non-combat walls.

But it is in fact totally possible to avoid combat in Age of Decadence

 

[lukaszek]

The sacrifice is the same as in AoD, harder combat/stealth/game due to lower skills. It's just much more metagamey here.

sure since you cant bank points it might appear as more metagamey, but remember that you are comparing finished aod vs unfinished and unpolished colony. Make that argument later coz its nowhere near doing stuff like no combat ascendancy.