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Incline Colony Ship RELEASE THREAD

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Shuttle Bay is a weird specimen. You get this interesting dilemma around refugees making the Bay too big to stay independent, but you barely see or talk to any of them. You have some idea that Dude A and Dude B are fighting for leadership but there's pretty much nobody else there, except the 2nd in command moron who has no opinions or role and may as well not exist. It's two guys alone on a deserted island bitchslapping to be chieftain. And in most cases you might have thought twice about your choice impacting the Pit except it doesn't at all (unless you sent Mercy).

Extra points for authentic NWN1 level design with the key NPCs distributed like a compass
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,708
A location utterly revolving around a single (lame) quest with nothing to explore and nothing of interest. How this is by the same people who made the excellent Mission Control map is beyond me
 

lukaszek

the determinator
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
13,169
extra points if you go to shuttle bay without combat & speech skills(as in with sneak only)
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Messages
2,512
Location
Vareš
I didn't follow Intended Path™ which apparently makes characters blind. A moment of silence for immersion. Come on, this is like the first part of the game, at least make The Pit airtight.

20240131122852_1.jpg
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,708
View attachment 46194

What the fuck is this? I didn't touch his gear since I got him. I'm really going to be punished? Can I just kill him somehow?
I assume they counted how much his initial inventory was worth, hardcoded it in, then later rebalanced the prices, but forgot to update the value. It's actually common throughout the game. Virtually every time a character references how much something costs, he's off by a large margin. It's not a big issue, but it's sloppy.
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,880
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
View attachment 46194

What the fuck is this? I didn't touch his gear since I got him. I'm really going to be punished? Can I just kill him somehow?
I assume they counted how much his initial inventory was worth, hardcoded it in, then later rebalanced the prices, but forgot to update the value. It's actually common throughout the game. Virtually every time a character references how much something costs, he's off by a large margin. It's not a big issue, but it's sloppy.

It's calculated when he joins. Equipment also counts stims/grenades/etc, so I assume that the player took the stim. If you check, the value is correct:

Howler: 80
Rounder: 20
Vest: 30
Boots: 20
Stim: 100

If you use the stim during his fight is not counted.
 

Hellraiser

Arcane
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
11,773
Location
Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
That is pretty autistic. Maybe the NPCs should also demand interest on the equipment loan.
Vince D. Weller's patented "no power gaming fun allowed" system.

Although still less autistic than not being able to first sneak by some goons, get sneak exp for it and then come back to kill them for combat exp despite them still standing around there.

I guess a man can leave the codex but the codex never leaves him.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,708
Well I finished the game, got the protectors of the mission ending. My review:

Stats and skills:
Looking at the statistics and skills, I can't help but feel they're a clear downgrade compared to AoD, namely in that 1. stats in AoD were more impactful (you really FELT every point in every cathegory) 2. learn by doing is decline (I'll elaborate on that below) and, perhaps worst of all, 3. they present a simple puzzle that can be solved. And by that I mean that it's not hard to create a build that passes EVERY presented check in the game, essentially 100%ing it (save exclusive story paths, naturally). This was my case as well – I have explored every bit of accessible content, won every single fight in the game, didn't leave a single check unpassed... This wasn't an option in AoD. While you COULD get past the majority of checks in a single playthrough if you knew what you were doing, I don't think you could ever do EVERYTHING. For reference, my starting build was 6 STR, 12 CON (Healing factor starting feat), 4 DEX, 4 PER, 10 INT, 6 CHAR. That way, I could maximize the amount of implants (thus raising my stats even higher), tag all the skills I needed (biotech and electronics from science skills, rest was for combat + streetwise. Faythe took care of all the stealth + computers), and still have the maximum amount of 3 followers (2 form CHAR + 1 from feat).

Moving onto Learn By Doing, it removes the entire aspect of character building from the game. Where in AoD, I often found myself agonizingly deciding which skill to invest my points into, here it was reduced to "Computers? Faythe. Electronics? Me. Oh, Steal? Faythe again" and so on. There was zero thought put into any of it, and while training tokens offered some versatility, they were too rare to really make it a meaningful gameplay consideration. Furthermore, I didn't really enjoy how it affected the speech skills. At times, I found myself skipping fights I'd have liked to fight just to pump that shit higher, which I don't think is good design. In any case, I brought every stealth and science skill to 10 (or 11, in the case of Biotech) thus passing any check they threw at me (and with 8 in both persuasion and streetwise, I passed pretty much every speech check too in the end).

Combat:
I know some people here disliked it, but I enjoyed it. It was good enough and offered enough challenge with varied mechanics to counter different scenarios. Trashmobs were comparatively rare (I think the only place where I ran into a series of seriously boring, uninspired combat encounters were Hydroponics Yellow and Red), looting enemies of all they had was always a pleasure (either they had goodies I wanted, or stuff I could sell. Game economy suffered from there being very little in shops that the player would want, but implants tuning created enough of a money need to make me scrounge up every credit up until late game), and many combats were tactically interesting in some manner.

Exploration, maps, and quests:
This was the game's weakpoint for me. It started off great – Chapter 1 had the best locations, each interesting in some way, each offering interesting places to explore, and most having a smattering of quests about just to make things interesting even narratively. I absolutely loved Mission Control, for example. Then comes chapter 2. Factory is meh, but okay, but then comes the Habitat. Holy fucking shit it's bad. Shuttle Bay is something I'd expect from a high school student in terms of overall design – a single quest placed into what's basically two linear corridors crossing each other, with nothing to explore, nothing of interest, just NOTHING overall. A terrible location. And the various faction compounds aren't much better – not only are the designs very similar in each, but most quests boil down to "go here and pass speech check" or "go here and fight a really easy fight". So fucking boring. You know it's bad when the mission where I was supposed to just go and kill a bunch of random brotherhood soldiers in a tunnel somewhere (which is as basic as it can get) was one of my favorites in that whole stretch of the game. Honestly, if the game teleported me to a faction leader right after Factory, and then to the maintenance tunnels, I'd think the game was better for it. Maintenance tunnels were better in that there was interesting stuff to do and good fights to fight, even if there wasn't that much of it due to their small size.

Then came chapter 3 and I happily returned to mission control to explore every last bit of it that I couldn't before (again, loved it), then fought some fights in the Pit, and then it was off to the Heart... which wasn't as bad as the Habitat but still a far cry from the maps in Chapter 1. It was at this point that I realized the game probably wasn't gonna get any better, but hey, I liked some of the fights there, so why not push on? In any case, you're then presented with Hydroponics Yellow and Red, which are both basically a corridor full of trashmobs and little of interest (when they should be so interesting given the lore behind them!), nor side quests or other things. And then you go onto a LONG sequence of main quest fights, and win the game. Game proper pretty much ends with Heart, everything after it is a prolonged ending scene, as far as I'm concerned.

World:
I found the game to be constantly confused about its own scale. Like it tried to be big and tiny at the same time. For example, consider the factory: narratively a lawless zone where whole 15 gangs warred it out until only 2 remained, and those then raid any traders that dare pass through, while Thy Brother's Keepers offer escort services of the non-sexual kind. Cool, right? But then, after eliminating both those gangs, you realize it was like 30 people in total, or something along those lines. Uh... something doesn't add up, dude. Were those 15 gangs made of two or three people each? Lol. There were many cases like this throughout the game, where the narrative was bombastic and made you think of something grand, but the execution then showed tiny areas or handfuls of people.

Still, if you got past that, things weren't so bad. The narrative made me intrigued about many places, there were mysteries raised, and so on. What I did NOT like at all was the lack of attention to detail in any of it though. The world is very static, with changes only being made in-between chapters, and minimal ones at that (usually just placing NPCs in different spots, often not even that). Compared to how, say, Teron changes once you enter chapter 2 in AoD, this was really disappointing. NPCs are especially offending in that regard. Like you'd think that after removing the spores in Hydroponics Yellow and massacring all the critters there, the Granger leader might be a little intrigued, given he's been trying to make a headway there for years, right? Nope. Unless you secure the red zone too, you may as well go fuck yourself, that nigga doesn't give a shit. Or Tanner. He's chatty in the main quest scenes, but talk to him otherwise and he has fuck all to say. Companions, while often speaking unprompted, are also guilty of this. They deliver their blurbs about pointless shit, but aside from that, you can't coax a word out of them. "Hey Faythe, we finally found where that shitty key goes. Now you know what your family died for." FAYTHE: "K. Do you need anything else, or...?"

Overall the game feels rushed. Like after Chapter 1, everything got made quickly rather than properly, with the last chapter especially being made ASAP. I also dearly miss some of the little fun things from AoD, such as each level of each skill having it's own unique description. I know they're inconsequential, but I found it fun to find out what different levels said, and I'm sure it can't be that much work to implement (same for NPCs reacting to the stuff you do more).

Overall:
I'd say it was alright, despite the shortcomings, but "alright" isn't very flattering either. Where I've replayed AoD many, many times by now, I cannot see myself giving CS more than one more playthrough sometime in the future, MAYBE, and mostly because I'm interested in what happens to the Pit under a different leadership (which is, again, Chapter 1 stuff... I really wish the whole game was like Chapter 1). I hope the game sold well, at least, and that whatever Iron Tower makes next will be better.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Messages
2,512
Location
Vareš
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/648410/view/3809543111539544230

Update Notes for Nov 9 - Release Version


- Tweaked hydro red elder creeper encounter, added a tech option.
Thank god for this, I did not have enough energy cells to kill this thing and no stasis grenades to keep it in a corner and put my guys in position without it healing it's entire health each turn. Invisibility cloak and tech skills to the fucking rescue I was about to rage quit this game.
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Messages
2,512
Location
Vareš
Is there still some backlash about Iron Tower games being "too hard" and building yourself into a corner?

I fucked up character creation hard, completely ignoring CON and investing in evasion rather than armour, at the same time not tagging and social skills. I did this as a lone wolf.

20240131113237_1.jpg


How I ended:


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I only took the Personal Magnetism feat for 1 fight I really wanted to win and that's it. Rest of the game was pretty much solo. I had some fucked up vision of some Clint Eastwood quick draw pistol type guy but with great knowledge of tech. I did enjoy the group fights though, although they were a little too easy.

Age of Decadence would've made me its bitch if I started that game after a few drinks, but nope, not this one. VD getting a little soft, eh?
 

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thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,708
I want to elaborate on the "learn by doing = bad" thing in the hopes that someone from ITS reads it.

The main reason why it's bad is that it removes player agency. You might contest that point, pointing at such things as the Elder Scrolls games, known for using the system, but those are a different kind of RPGs - there is always a way for the player to raise any particular skill if he so desires. Want to improve crafting? Then craft - tons of options all around. Lockpicking and sneaking? Wait for nighttime and rob houses. Combat skills? Go into any of the hundreds of dungeons around.

CS is not like this. If a player wants to pump a skill, he's usually shit out of luck. His only options are a couple feats improving skillgain or tagging more skills (rare and mostly only available to certain builds), and training tokens (rare and usually coming in sub-optimal configurations). If I want to raise, say, electronics to pass a specific skillcheck, all I can do most of the time is hope that maybe, at some point later in the plot, I'll find a check that I can beat and that gives plenty of skill XP. It's basically out of my hands, which isn't fun at all.

In AoD with point buy, you didn't have hundreds of caves to explore either, but you could easily amass quite a number of skill points to spend. Not enough to get everything you wanted, mind you, but if you were really determined to raise a particular skill, you could - you had agency. You interacted with the system and weighed pros and cons of spending the points on this or that. And that was the key difference - in AoD, the player was in charge of how his character develops. In CS, it's mostly up to fate.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
The main reason why it's bad is that it removes player agency.
It really doesn't because it follows your decisions (how to handle quests and encounters). If anything it reinforces your decisions and playstyle.

You might contest that point, pointing at such things as the Elder Scrolls games...
I really wouldn't.

If I want to raise, say, electronics to pass a specific skillcheck, all I can do most of the time is hope that maybe, at some point later in the plot, I'll find a check that I can beat and that gives plenty of skill XP. It's basically out of my hands, which isn't fun at all.
Sure, if you never used electronics and then suddenly felt the urge to beat a high check, you're out of luck. If you've been using that skill (or have a party member who did) you won't have any problems.
 

kangaxx

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 26, 2020
Messages
1,675
Location
atop a flaming horse
Sure, if you never used electronics and then suddenly felt the urge to beat a high check, you're out of luck. If you've been using that skill (or have a party member who did) you won't have any problems.
My biggest gripe was that missing just one or two checks in a 'chosen' stat early in the game screws you at certain points. It happened to me with Computer when I returned to Mission Control. If I enjoyed the game more I'd be tempted to back and redo, but I really didn't.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,708
It really doesn't because it follows your decisions (how to handle quests and encounters). If anything it reinforces your decisions and playstyle.
First of all, this is untrue. There's precious few quest instances where Biotech or Electronics, for example, would be checked, and the bulk of skill xp comes from passing skillchecks placed around the world (and clicking on a door to pass a skillcheck can't really be called "decisions" or "playstyle").

Second of all, it wouldn't fix the issue even if it were done as you say. Let me illustrate on an example:

Imagine that in AoD you placed a level 9 crafting check in Teron. A player can then make it his goal to pass it - invest in crafting any time he has the points to spare (something he can do regardless of build), weighing it against all the other skills he needs to advance, feeling himself closer to the goal each time he invests into the skill. At every point in the game, he will ponder whether to invest in crafting now, or leave it for later, hoping he will have the points to spare then.

Compare it to the lvl 9 electronics check in mission control in CS. What can the player do to overcome this obstacle? Not much. Pick some feats he may or may not have available, hope he'll get the approprite training token, but mostly just wait and hope the game will throw the appropriate skill check at you. It's not interactive in the least and cannot hold a candle to the amount of player involvement AoD had in these matters.

Sure, if you never used electronics and then suddenly felt the urge to beat a high check, you're out of luck. If you've been using that skill (or have a party member who did) you won't have any problems.
I used electronics every opportunity I got, and I was still only able to beat a high check very, very late into the game, with there being exactly zero options for me to speed that moment up, save for advancing the main plot. In AoD, I would've beaten such a check come mid-game if I really put my mind to it (at the expense of every other skill, naturally), here I couldn't do anything at all. Do you not see the difference between the approaches? AoD gives player options, CS does not. In AoD, I constantly calculate the pros and cons of investing into a skill, in CS I just wait, and wait, and wait while clicking everything tagged [Electronics] I can (And yes, I did beat every check in the game eventually – I ended the game with 10 in each science and stealth skill, as noted in my review above, so this isn't sour grapes or some shit. I'm not complaining about beating high checks being difficult, I am complaining about it being boring).

As an aside independent on the points raised, is this sort of design ("reinforcing your playstyle") really something you want, even if it worked as intended? I keep remembering the mission where you found the spy in the Habitat – I wanted to blow his brains out, but helping him escape carried virtually no penalties, while giving you lots more skill XP in computers and electronics because there was some dumb computer terminal in the way. Therefore, there exists no playthrough in which I'd ever NOT help the spy unless I was heavily LARPing, since killing him is clearly the inferior option by a wide margin. Is this really something you want the player to think about? It was like that with speech skills too – I wanted to fight an enemy, but knew I was falling behind on my speech XP, so I talked it out instead. I don't think I've ever had to make such considerations in AoD (and if yes, then they must've been very minor as I don't recall any significant instance of it). I cannot say such considerations were fun to make – they just made me feel annoyed over being cucked out of a combat encounter, if anything – yet from what you're saying, it sounds as if you think that this is the intended way it should work.
 

Lord_Potato

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Messages
10,923
Location
Free City of Warsaw
In general there are too few skill checks to train some of the skills. You miss/visit one location out of the intended sequence and you fall behind the curve which means you may never catch up due to lack of opportunities.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
First of all, this is untrue. There's precious few quest instances where Biotech or Electronics, for example, would be checked, and the bulk of skill xp comes from passing skillchecks placed around the world (and clicking on a door to pass a skillcheck can't really be called "decisions" or "playstyle").
I was mainly referring to combat/diplomacy/stealth. Biotech and electronics are fairly easy to increase, so I'm surprised you ran into problems there. Can you post your character screen for feedback purposes?

Compare it to the lvl 9 electronics check in mission control in CS. What can the player do to overcome this obstacle? Not much. Pick some feats he may or may not have available, hope he'll get the approprite training token, but mostly just wait and hope the game will throw the appropriate skill check at you. It's not interactive in the least and cannot hold a candle to the amount of player involvement AoD had in these matters.
Yes, you can dump all points into crafting in AoD to beat a check, but I don't see it as a good example of player's involvement. Tag and focus on the skill and you won't have any issues.

8BC186EEA184B916EBEFD16883BE063AA37AC8B9

^ random player-submitted build

As an aside independent on the points raised, is this sort of design ("reinforcing your playstyle") really something you want, even if it worked as intended?
I prefer it to the AoD system, if that's what you're asking. I think it fits our design better.

In the unlikely event that we survive as a studio, we'll make a sequel set on Proxima, which will have the mechanics of the first game plus psionics. If we make a prequel to AoD after that, it will have the mechanics of AoD.
 

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